styrofoam sculpture coating

[tommyhank]

I have some large pieces of styrofoam that I would like to carve into sculptural shapes, and rather than use the styrofoam to make molds I would like to finish the styrofoam itself and wind up with a sculpture that would be appropriate for outdoors. I understand that there is a sealer that styrofoam can be painted with that bonds to the styrofoam,adding strength, and then a variety of materials can be bonded to the sealer. (i.e. paints, stuccos, concrete mixtures, etc.) I have heard of several examples of this over the years and know that it is done by large companies to make statue replicas, landscape companies for man made rocks, etc. My problem is I have no idea what the name of the type of sealant that is necessary or a source or a price. Anybody out there with any experience in this area, I would appreciate some help.

[EJB]

Before getting to the "oops" stage try to determine exactly what kind of foam you are working with. Different types of foam can react adversely to heat or chemicals and create ruined work or perhaps a dangerous toxic situation. For hard coatings, look up products by SMOOTH-ON or INDUSTRIAL POLYMERS. They make a wide variety of products pertaining to foam and plastics.
Be prepared to drop some cash on polymer based products. They are rarely cheap and tend to have a limited shelf life.
An inexpensive, low tech solution may be to use cementitious materials or plaster to achieve your end. I sometimes make quick, cheap prototypes of an idea using florist foam from the local craft store. To make it more permanent and durable I'll give it a few coats of gesso. If I want to keep it long term I'll follow up the gesso with resin or epoxy and paint it.
I have also seen (don't know exactly how it's done) finished pieces that have been metal sprayed over fiberglass. This produces a durable finished piece that is also lightweight. Not sure what the cost is.

[oddist]

I think this is what you are looking for.

http://www.fxsupply.com/vanillacryl/vanillacryl.html

[Araich]

Fibreglass works well if heavy enough.
Check out Adrians public sculpture http://www.studiomauriks.com/
I believe it is possible to spray aluminium over fibreglass. They start by just dusting, then slowly build up a jacket (tiny molten pellets that fuse together). It is a metallising process and would be easy enough to find locally. Aluminium wire for metallising also comes as a copper alloy called 'bronze', it is brass golden and can be patinated.

[Steven Haas]

Another source of information would be the experimental aircraft industry as they use glass/foam construction routinely as does the boat building industry.
A friend has used polyester resin directly over foam successfully, however he doesn't view it as 'perminent'.

[Mordachai]

There is a product called Steelflex that does exactly what you are looking for.

it is made by Fasco, anyone that carries fasco should have it.

http://www.fascoepoxies.com/

|M|

[GaryR52]

I know this thread's a bit old now, but another shell material for foam is Design Cast, a gypsum-based product that creates a rock-hard shell for outdoor sculpture. http://www.design-cast.com/index.php

Another thing worth mentioning on this subject is that EPS (expanded polystyrene) will have to be coated before using any kind of resin as a covering, as polyester resin dissolves the foam. Where that's concerned, the better foam to use is polyurethane, which doesn't have that limitation and can be obtained in heavier densities, as well. A good supplier of polyurethane carving foam is General Plastics: http://www.generalplastics.com/products/product_detail.php?pid=19&

For inspiration, check out the work of Don Frost, who works exclusively in fiberglass. I believe he carves foam and then covers it with fiberglass: http://www3.sympatico.ca/g.foy/index.html

Gary

[oddist]

I just came across this company (http://www.polygem.com/zoo/zoopoxy.php) that has a line of interesting sculpting products.

Some can be used to coat foam.

[GaryR52]

Amazing realism, Oddist! I'll be watching TV, wondering if it's real or if it's Zoopoxy from now on! ;)

I'm not sure there is much applicability to non-objective sculpture, though, since I'm not trying to represent anything in the real world. If I were doing the sort of thing Duane Hanson did, then it would be highly useful.

Gary

[oddist]

Gary,

:confused: Did you miss my point? It's about the material..not it's application.

I'm sure this stuff can be used for non-objective work. After all, isn't a tree a non-objective piece of work by Nature?

[GaryR52]

Well, the way I see it, the whole point of this material is to pass it off as something else; i.e., wood, stone, etc. and it's chiefly used by those in the prop-making industry, who have to create realistic environments for movie, TV and theatre sets. Its application to non-objective sculpture isn't as clear cut. Since I'm not trying to represent anything, I don't require a material that mimmics other materials. In fact, I rather subscribe to the idea of "truth to materials," which is also known in modern architecture. It is the view that, if you're using steel, for example, it should be readily apparent that steel is being used, instead of trying to disguise it as wood or concrete. In a non-objective sculpture in which the core material is sculpted foam, I'd tend to want a surface finish that is smooth and perhaps one color. Of course, there will also be instances in which I'd want to have a rougher surface texture. This is an issue I've been wrestling with; i.e., whether to make a sculpture look like fiberglass or to make it look like stone or bronze. It's acceptable, in sculpture, to use cold casting to simulate stone or bronze, but there was a time when this was frowned upon by purists and, to an extent, still is. So, my point is, why would I use this stuff and what would I use it for?

Gary

[oddist]

Sorry, I retract my suggestion.

[GaryR52]

No need for apologies or retractions, Oddist. Like I said, I'm conflicted about the issue, myself. Whether to make it look like stone or bronze or not? I just don't know. I guess it depends upon who I'm selling to, right? People just looking for sculpture for their home may not be as picky as more "serious" collectors. It's tough to decide which way to go. Of course, anything I cast in actual bronze is fine, but, especially just starting out, that's an expensive option.

About Zoopoxy, I wonder what else it can simulate, aside from tree bark or rocks? Could it, for example, simulate bronze or other metals? I guess the answer is in the finish; i.e., paint applied.

Gary

[bluedogshuz]

I hva been coaqting EPS for 10 years with epoxies fiberglass and durable faux finishes. I originally did this so I could do large scale armatures for future bronze cast or marble carvings. I have a finished product and would simply say to someone that says its not REAL bronze or REAL marble but like the piece NO PROBLEM I can have it carved in Carrara for $16,000. or bronzed in the US for $14,000. or yo can by the FAKE for $3,000. doesn't matter to me. As a matter of fact I am so confident in the material maybe I should charge more. If I want to fiberglass my pool (which takes 2 days) they charge $5.000. and guarantee it 25 years, thats a long time. With proper sealing and maintenance fiberglass and epoxy can last 100 years. As someone noted you don't have to worry about it being melted down for the bronze. Or, in my neighborhood stolen for junk metal and believe me people do it.

[GaryR52]

Good points, Blue. By the way, can you use an epoxy resin directly on EPS without damaging the foam, as polyester resin does? If so, I'm thinking EPS might be the best route for me, as it's both cheaper and easier to carve than polyurethane. Not as strong, though, unless you get it in higher densities.

Gary

[GaryR52]

I just found some good resin/foam tips from the surfboarding world: http://www.pointblanks.com/tech_highlights.html

Key points:

"...epoxy resin is 15% stronger than typical polyester resin..."

"...extruded polystyrene (Styrofoam®)...has greater shear and compression strength than our previous expanded polystyrene and greater strength than a typical polyurethane..."

"...our new extruded polystyrene foam is "closed cell" and absorbs 73% less water than the standard polyurethane..." (important for outdoor pieces)

"...extruded Styrofoam®...has many advantages over EPS and polyurethane foams."


P.S.: Just found this handy EPS "calculator": http://www.univpack.com/Expanded_Polystyrene__EPS_.aspx


Gary

[bluedogshuz]

Yes Gary I use epoxy because it won't melt the EPS. My supplier fiberglass coatings showed me the vinyl stuff and something else to cover theatrical foam. I may have missed something but I'm pretty sure It won't work for permanent sculpture. EPS has no structural strength it function as a filler/armature. My first experiment was wood with EPS over it so I could screw it together. I did'nt properly seal the wood and water rapidly infiltrated the design cast layer which then cracked,big time! Next I sealed the wood with epoxy, fiberglass, and collodial silica, then the foam then the design cast. I think it will work, my construction friend does not. The epoxy directly with 2 layers of 6oz fiberglass amd microsilica mixed in is virtually bullit proof for a skin. It is probably good for public sculpture cause quite frankly you take a hammer to a bronze or marble and youv'e got problems. you bust up a fiberglass piece (recently happened to a piece in front of city hall) it can be repaired in a couple of days. One more note regarding layup on foam, it SUCKS! complex curves with a fluid substance? I was reading poly techs stuff
and have figured it out. Cast thin sheets of epoxy/glass over surface treatment then cut the sheet to the eps and lay up (glue) to the EPS. Its that or multiple layers of epoxy and carve (not).

[GaryR52]

Hmmm...so, I guess it's polyurethane, then, if strength is an issue. That last link I posted (the EPS calculator); I tried the calculator and found they only have up to 2 lb density. Even at that, a 48" x 96" x 12" sheet is $250. Of course, 2 lb density is way too weak. Even in polyurethane, I wouldn't use less than 6 or 8 lb. foam. I guess if I'm going with polyurethane, the epoxy resin vs. polyester resin thing is a moot point.

P.S.: I'm thinking Design Cast is preferable to either resin, as it won't run.

Gary

[GaryR52]

Hey, guys, get a load of this stuff! http://www.alsacorp.com/

They make some amazing paints and coatings for many applications, including heat-reactive paints and color-shift coatings.

P.S.: These are incredibly expensive paints, though.

Gary

[bluedogshuz]

Just keep those links coming Gary someday I'll get a chance to read them, for know i'm putting them in my favorites! By the way, I recieved sample of that celled aluminum stuff. Looks like crushed tin cans. I can't see an application except maybe high tech coffe tables or something. Also remeber if you are working with foam you need a hot knife, I just replaced mine and it was $250. with several attachments. Also design cast is recommended for EPS open cell because it really needs to grip the surface. It is quite structural when you use fiberglass (previous post) but I bond all connection points with epoxy resin/glass so they won't break (which the will).

[GaryR52]

Yep, that's what I thought. Aluminum foam is being used mostly as partitions/dividers, that sort of thing. I was thinking it might have an application as a sculpture material, but, I guess not.

Well, if you're cutting EPS you need a hot knife, yes. Polyurethane is best worked with conventional wood carving and power tools, though, as it can't be heated. I'm still on the fence, as to which foam to use. I think polyurethane is more widely applicable because it doesn't require a barrier coat for use with polyester resin, but it's more expensive and doesn't carve as readily, also. Some of these purpose-made hot knives I've seen are pretty expensive, though, as you noted. Sounds like you bought the Original Hot Knife Kit.

So, with Design Cast as the shell material, I should use open celled styrofoam, as opposed to closed cell foam, eh? Yep, that makes sense. How about the use of fiberglass cloth with it? Is that necessary, or can I just lay the Design Cast directly on the foam without it? I guess I could if I mix chopped strands of glass fiber into the Design Cast, right?

By "all connection points," I assume you mean you're rolling the Design Cast into constant thickness sheets and then laying them up on the surface and "stitching" the seams together to form a continuous surface, right? That's the way I have imagined it working, anyway, otherwise, you'd wind up with a lumpy and inconsistent covering of Design Cast.

Gary

[bluedogshuz]

You have to use fiberglass with EPS that is where the strength is. Buy 2-3" fiberglass tape that way you dont have fraying, cut small pieces soak it then smooth it over EPS just like plaster. Put on your top coat and sand. You can also use chopped fiberglass short pieces high amounts to get a very strong piece.

[GaryR52]

Thanks for the tips! Now I know how to proceed....as soon as I have the money to, that is. :D

Oh, one thing; what about the resin? Should I use epoxy resin or polyester? Epoxy, right?

Gary

[bluedogshuz]

Yes. Ill send you my bill ;)

[GaryR52]

Just put it on my tab. ;)

Whoohoo! Another useful material for us to play with: http://www.systemthree.com/p_sculpwood_2.asp

Gary

[Mordachai]

that Design-Cast is good stuff.
It hold up and lasts and lasts and lasts
It really is stone when you're done( well if you're looking for natural formed stone- then it's not) and has a great feel to it.
It feels cool and smooth.
Great stuff

Unfortunatly the artist I've been working for/ studying under does not have any images of his work with design cast up. (I'd have put the pictures up) Most of the stuff made with it is design cast over a SS skeleton.


Cool stuff
Keep them coming guys...

|M|

[bluedogshuz]

Gary I was wondering what you mean by truth in materials? I kind of think that it is a mute point. I mean the truth is the work i am doing is well documented for the buyer and I don't say it is bronze, I say its wood, epoxy, fiberglass, design cast, copper emulsified finish, patina, and finished product. I mean there is an esthetic that says designs should fit the material, ie. a ribbon like form would be appropriate for bronze but not marble and yet I know lots of sculptors me included that stretch the material to its absolute limit. Mordachai, I included a picture of a completed design cast piece.
Araich, can you direct me to what you are talking about in your post about sprayed aluminum/bronze over fiberglass? I am very curious about THAT process!

[GaryR52]

Hmmmm....I'm having some serious second thoughts about using either polyester or epoxy resins, after having read a bit of Tuck Langland's book, From Clay to Bronze: A Studio Guide to Figurative Sculpture, a very useful book, by the way, even for non-objective sculptors, due to the vast amount of technical information and tips it contains.

The particular part that has me doubting my choice of shell materials is this:

(about polyester resin) "...cleanup involves stinky and nasty acetone, and by now the place will be smelling so bad you'll be gasping for air.."

"...the hardener used for polyester resin - methyl ethyl ketone peroxide - is really nasty stuff, and if you squirt a dash into your resin and one tiny drop happens to splash in your eye, that eye will turn into a shriveled brown nut within seconds and you'll be blind forever..."

Of epoxy resin he says, "And one group you really don't want to listen to is the epoxy crowd - if they're still alive. Epoxy resin works much like polyester, except that it can kill you. Enough said. Forget it. Stick to polyurethanes and superplasters. [he's talking about using resins as casting material, by the way, not as shell material]..."

Now, to be fair, the following sentence gives me some insight as to how he came to such opinions of these substances:

"Polyester resins are the less noxious of the two, and they are very noxious. They will drive you out of the house or studio with the odor, they are sticky and nasty to use..."

I placed the emphasis on that particular sentence because its presence, coupled with the fact that he never mentions using a respirator, goggles and gloves when handling these materials suggests he may be writing from personal experience, in which case, no wonder! Obviously, you don't use these substances in your house, in the first place, and if you're wearing a suitable respirator, goggles and gloves, you're not going to be overpowered by the fumes or get epoxy resin in your eyes. So, I have to wonder about his motives for suggesting you should "avoid them if you can." His statement, "...I never want to see them again..." suggests he may have discovered these things for himself the hard way, having not taken the proper precautions, himself. Tuck, if you're reading this, feel free to correct me, if I'm wrong, but that's the way it seems.

Having said all that, I'm not shying away from carving polyurethane foam, which is safe enough, if handled according to directions. I am having second thoughts about using either polyester or epoxy resin as a shell material, however. Even with the proper precautions, these are still dangerous materials and, even if handled with the proper precautions, can have a devastating effect on my health in the offhand chance of an accident or a moment's forgetfulness. If not used properly, they can be very unforgiving materials, as health hazards go, so why allow even a slim chance of something going wrong when there are safer alternatives to use?

As far as those safer alternatives go, there is the aforementioned Design Cast, as well as Fortan MG, both products that can be used to create a weatherproof, durable shell over foam without the attendant health hazards of polyester or epoxy resins. That said, I think that's what I'll use, then.

Gary

[GaryR52]

Gary I was wondering what you mean by truth in materials? I kind of think that it is a mute point. I mean the truth is the work i am doing is well documented for the buyer and I don't say it is bronze, I say its wood, epoxy, fiberglass, design cast, copper emulsified finish, patina, and finished product. I mean there is an esthetic that says designs should fit the material, ie. a ribbon like form would be appropriate for bronze but not marble and yet I know lots of sculptors me included that stretch the material to its absolute limit. Mordachai, I included a picture of a completed design cast piece.

Looks like I really stirred up a hornet's nest with that comment, Blue. ;)
Sorry, but I have regretted even saying so and, I have to admit that I don't fully subscribe to the "truth to materials" viewpoint, myself. I only mentioned it to get some feedback on what materials I should use, with an eye toward (1) being taken seriously by galleries and collectors and (2) making my work as salable as possible. Despite the fact that you and I may agree that it really doesn't matter what the materials are, as long as you don't misrepresent them, there is still the old stigma attached to cold cast bronze and materials that simulate other materials and this stigma does affect the market value of the sculpture, even these days, when the standards have been relaxed a bit. It is still true that bronze has more instrinsic value than powdered bronze suspended in resin. I didn't make that rule, I'm only observing that this is still the prevailing attitude. But, I believe, as you do, that if you state explicitly what the materials are, then anyone who wants "real" bronze can go look for it somewhere else and no harm, no foul. It does, however, place a limit on the sculpture's sales potential, at least among more serious art buyers. On the other hand, it makes it more attractive to the lower-end buyer who can't afford a bronze casting and, perhaps most importantly, it allows cash-poor artists like us to produce something, rather than nothing.

P.S.: I didn't fully address your question, re: "truth to materials." It's a concept that arose decades ago, not only in art, but in architecture, when synthetic materials that can mimmic other materials (such as wood, stone or metal) began to creep into both art and architecture. The concept is perhaps more relevent to modern architecture than anything else and that is the area in which it comes up most frequently. Basically stated, the view is that, if you're going to make something look like wood, stone or metal, why not use wood, stone or metal? The philosophy behind this is that it is "phony" to use a material to masquerade as another material. Again, not my attitude, but that is an attitude that still prevails in some circles, despite the fact that these synthetic materials have been in use for a long time now. My own view is that, whatever works is fine, just don't expect everyone to agree that it is.

Gary

[Toxic]

Check out www.luminore.com it is cold sprayable metal that can be used over just about any substrate. They have all types of metal available; copper, stainless, bronze, aluminum, etc.

[GaryR52]

Thanks, Toxic! Do you know what Luminore costs? This looks like something I'd definitely be interested in trying if the price is right. :D

Gary

[Toxic]

They want you to buy in so have to buy in bulk and that is (last I checked-2003) was $3k or $4k depending on the metal you chose. After that you can buy smaller amounts. I beleive training was included in that cost.

The other option is to find a co. that already has bought in and use thier services.

I first saw this in '98 when in the commercial woodwork field, but could never get my employer to buy in. I still want to get into it though, the possibilities are pretty awesome.

[bluedogshuz]

Thanks Toxic! Glad you resurected this thread. I checked out the Luminare site. Its really a matter of cost as far as I am concerned. I have used patinafinishes for years and swear by them. Metalized coatings are the way to go if large work limited budget is concerned. I stick to $200. for an 8 foot sculpture. Thats it. I sold one the other day for $900., I don't really care. I explain my processes to a buyer and quite frankly they don't care. If it turns them on they buy. I started my process as maquettes for bronzes and then realized I could not possibly afford to make them ergo I use the materials I can afford. I know people that want me to carve marble or cypress or whatever and it has to be that material and I have to sweat, so what. If thats what they want I will do it. The wierdest request was someone that wanted a marble pieces done only with hand tools... I told them to f..k off!

[GaryR52]

I was wondering if the training is optional or not; I assume so, since I have no way of going to Carlsbad, California and wouldn't be interested, anyway. I think I can figure out how to spray the stuff myself. The main factor for me is cost and if it's going to be that much, forget about it. Maybe if I have a large scale outdoor commission, but certainly not for the small sculptures I'm working on.

I wonder if it's possible to make your own? I mean, it's obviously powdered metal suspended in some sort of liquid binder. Seems to me one could experiment with spraying powdered bronze suspended in a fluid binder (what, I'm not sure). Obviously, it isn't polyester resin if it can be used on unsealed styrofoam, and it isn't hot wax because it's a cold process, so it must be something else.

Blue, you're doing eight foot sculptures for only $900? Sounds like you're underpricing your work.

Gary

[GaryR52]

From the Luminore website:
"The secret to the cold application is the chemical reaction which occurs between the LuminOre metal and a hybrid polymer binder that actually transforms the two materials into an all-new composite metal."

In looking around to see if someone else was offering the same thing or something similar, I came across a company that does the same thing and they reveal that the binder they use is composed of carbon, tungsten and boron. No wonder this stuff is expensive. http://www.forbes.com/free_forbes/2002/1223/284.html

Gary

[realsculpt]

look fopr smooth on or polyteks 15-06 or similar, they will know, it is inexpensive easy to use, or if styrofoam you can coat it with drywall compound, or elmers glue then use fiberglass resin or epoxy resin right over it, elmers glue works good, but the 15-06 urathane resin lamintaes with fiberglass or kevlar matt, and is not too expensive, but if there is a budget the elmers glue and fiberglass resin is cheapest.

Seth

[GaryR52]

I'm going to use Liquitex Acrylic Modeling Paste for the shell material, built up in layers. I'll then spray paint it and finish it off in a weather-resistant varnish so it can be displayed indoors or outdoors. At some point, I'd like to try mixing bronze powder with the modeling paste.

Gary

[davizm]

Stocco or Acrylic Binder as it is otherwise known is the product. It comes in 5 gallon buckets but cant tell you the pricing on it since i have a friend order it and we divide it up when needed.

[rhendriks]

Some useful acrylic application tips;
http://lascaux.ch/english/anwendung/index.html

Rob
See my foam reliefs; http://www.reliefs.nl

[Bentiron]

Way back when I was paying the bills by being a draftsman the architects were specing a product called Dry-vit to cover their Styrofoam and now 30 years later the buildings are still there and so is the foam. I guess you could use the artificial stucco for sculpture. It can't be to expensive because they still cover whole buildings in it. First a smooth coat, then a texture coat, then paint.

[davizm]

Here in Florida we use a product to coat Styrofoam that needs to be exposed to weather with Stucco and a better one Stocco. This is a concrete material coating that works wonders on several tall structures such as the one community project-a huge arch i helped construct and coat at http://www.crealde.org It stands on a concrete block base but is hollow in the upper section(the arch). see for yourself.It depends upon the application- how thick the surface quality will be obviously.

[davizm]

go to http://www.crealde.org as we are doing a styrofoam carving workshop and we will cover alot of information including finishing surfaces. this is a preliminary workshop for a second, follow-up workshop on sculpural recycling. Go GREEN!!!!

[davizm]

I personally dont like hot knives in that it destroys the beautiful nature of the styrofoam beads . i love the rough textured molecular look of unheated styrofoam. the beauty is in preserving the bubbled up natural texture. I look at the work of Alberto Giacometti and wonder what kind of wonderful pieces he couldve come up with if he had styrofoam to carve. i love his work and try to immulate it with styrofoam.I usually slice styrofoam with a regular saw blade and then take broken saw blades and tooth picks to do detail work. i did one piece with about 25 -30 figures intertwined in a circular but flat piece of styrofoam i found in the trash of someone who had just bought a glasss tabletop and discarded the foam packing crate. Somebody's trash is almost usually this sculptor's treasure. i think my workshop in styrofoam recycling was cancelled due to poor advertisement and wording so i will redesign the whole focus of this workshop to included recycling as the focal point and devote a series of miniclasses to Recycling for Green Sculpture. I do so many new things with discarded material that i think its a good time to do several small mini-classes devoted to my many new techinques that i will disclose once the dates are determined. Look for them either at Crealde.org or ArtistsRegistry.com on their messege boards later this year or wait until i announce them here. If the series catches more peoples' imagination i will be doing regular classes and demonstrations of all my unique techniques in many future workshops and classes.