Noses

[wasabi]

I am struggling with noses in my metal sculptures. I am currently working on a series of faces or masks and I am consistently unhappy with the nose. They actually look acceptable when I am done (the work as a whole) but I feel they could be better. Often the nose is the only relief in the sculpture so it has to work a lot for me. I assume noses is it's own topic of discussion for artists, but I have searched the internet and not found any references or discussions specifically on nose design/approach/issues.

I realize it is highly subjective and that my sculpture needs to rely upon my own independant artistic design, but I still would like to take inspiration from an educational or artistic discussion on the topic. I do look at lots of different art and see how their noses were made, then add my own interpretation or creative touch, but often I feel like such a hack. Anybody know of any references (or at least share my struggles to feel comfortable in this area)??

[oddist]

To be a little "nosy" about this....without seeing your work it is hard to suggest a possible solution or make recommendations.

I do figurative steel work and have satisfied my nose issues in different ways.

Go to my site South Wall (http://www.torchandpalette.com/topics/index.cfm?fact=detail&topic_id=64) for two examples.

[wasabi]

Hmmm, oddist. I get an error accessing your site.

yes, I realize I have not posted pics of my work. But I guess I wasn't looking for advice on my noses, simply on a discussion of the form itself. Then I could possibly apply concepts to my work as the inspiration came to me.

I have no formal art training, but my mother did and I recall her discussing how various painting classes she took talked about specific features and various techniques.

[oddist]

Oh...sorry...

A nose is a nose is a nose...

Get some books on anatomy and how to draw the human head.

Start drawing...then draw some more...

Just sculpt noses without faces...make them big...make them small...make them humped, pug, hooked, broken....

Practice....

[fritchie]

Wasabi - In case it helps, I also had a great deal of trouble doing noses in my early work, which was in clay transposed to bronze, but directly from the live model. They are very complex. I also had problems with the lips and eyes, but ears came fairly easily.

The human form overall is very complex, but the face, of course, is the primary focus and in a sense the most important, if it is present. I agree with Oddist - practice, practice.

Oddist - These two noses are very impressive, done in steel. I guess you just have a clear idea of what you want, and do what is necessary to get there?

[wasabi]

Oddist,

I was finally able to view your website. I love Anguish, and the nose is very well done.

Here is the closest thing I have to it. I am using 3/16" steel so I think my material is far thicker in this particular case. I wasn't going for a true life nose although a bit more "true life" form might have made the piece more interesting. I broke the nose several times (cracked during bending) but the welded beads seemed to help it overall.

Modern Relic
http://www.people.virginia.edu/~wds3r/wide_eyes3.jpg

[oddist]

Well wasabi my friend, very nice.

"Modern Relic" is an appropriate description.

I see where you are and from what you say, how you're getting there.

Forming thick material, cold or hot, into close bends is always a problem. Cracking and crazing is the nature of the beast. It's also a lot of work for these old bones.

My solution has been to look for the "forms" I need in existing material shapes so I have to do as little work as possible to reach my desired result.

Square bar, round bar, square tube, rectangular tube, round tube, large diameter pipe, leaf springs from cars and trucks, anything pre-made that offers a close resemblance to the shape desire.

Cutting and grinding to separate the needed piece is an art in itself.

Here are all features made from bicycle parts.

Good luck and keep on doing....

[JasonGillespie]

I would agree that looking at the structure of the nose in anatomy books is going to be one of the best helps. Another great source would be Edouard Lanteri's book published by Dover, Modelling and Sculpting the Human Figure. I say this because of the break down he shows of his construction of said organ from a cast of Michelangelo's David. Also his accompaning text is helpful in seeing the elements in the right relationship.

Looking at your work, my own thought is that a focus upon the greater masses in terms of planes would be a possible approach. Your medium being less plastic, you have to describe the identifiable parts in a distinctive yet simple way. As funny as it sounds, if you go and look for the the Walter Foster how-to-books and specfically look for a book by the illustrator Andrew Loomis called "heads", I think that is it, you will see within its pages a great treatment of the features as they break down into planes. He is a wonderful resource, but you can look far and wide for the books he put out himself and then you will pay for them dearly.

Unfortunately, I am ignorant of the medium you are working in being a clay man. This is my best offering.

Good luck
Jason

[wasabi]

Thanks for the feedback . I will seek out these publications!!

[tomfoolery]

hey, i'm new to the forum, but here's my two cents:

noses in steel are not that difficult if you have the right tools. the advice about having your anatomy down can't be stressed enough, but it does you no good if you can't manipulate your materials. i would suggest for cold or hot forging to get yourself a good swage block and some small rounded punches. i couldn't find a round punch small enough to do the tip of the nose, but they're easily made with some pencil rod and a bench grinder. the swage block is the key. they're not cheap, but they'll last forever. and anyone interested in doing figurative work in steel should have one. they're not necessarily needed, but they sure do make things easier when you're first starting out. here's a link:

http://www.blacksmithsdepot.com/Templates/cart_templates/cart-detail.php?theLocation=/Resources/Products/SWAGE_blocks/60_Pound_Rectangular

you want to get one with a V swage and various spoons and ladels. what i do is is cut a triangle shape out of my steel bigger than what i want the nose to be. the point of this triangle will be the top of the bridge. using the V swage and a small round punch (and some tongs or pliers), and starting at the point of the triangle of steel, i hammer out the bridge of the nose to about half way down leaving the tip of the nose to be hammered out in one of the round swages. the nostrils will be hammered out in a round swage as well. it takes some practice to figure out how to work with the swage block, but once you do it's a piece of cake. after i get the nose about the shape i want it, i use the plasma cutter to remove any steel i don't want. and finally, using a MIG welder i attatch the nose to the face, and clean everything up with the dremel.

i know i have probably made it sound easier than it is. and i'm not too good at explaining things. and if i were a little more tech savy i would put up some pictures. i hope that i haven't confused more. if you have any questions feel free to ask.

[JAZ]

Cool link, Tomfoolery. I do steel too, but avoid hammering whenever possible. But that swage block is gorgeous. I've never seen one. Once I made a copper bowl out of a flat sheet by hammering with a rounded hammer (I don't remember what it's called) and a sand bag. But the noses you guys are forging are a whole other thing.
Here's my take on noses for wall sculpture. Visage 2 and Visage 3 are downright goofy. Visage 1 suggests the facial features without actually rendering any of them. It's from a while ago - 1999. I sold that one to a theater person.
JAZ

[oddist]

.....
Here's my take on noses for wall sculpture. Visage 2 and Visage 3 are downright goofy. Visage 1 suggests the facial features without actually rendering any of them. It's from a while ago - 1999. I sold that one to a theater person.
JAZ

Very nice construction..Naum Gabo (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.deutsche-bank-kunst.com/art/07/assets/images/naum-gabo.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.deutsche-bank-kunst.com/art/07/e/thema-enke.php&h=220&w=157&sz=9&tbnid=Cdt4xgtkVZAJ:&tbnh=101&tbnw=72&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dnaum%2Bgabo%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D&oi=imagesr&start=3) like...(scroll half way down down the page)

[tomfoolery]

visage 2 is my favorite. good work.

[JAZ]

Oddist,
I like the Gabo and am honored to be linked in your mind with that, but actually I think sculptorsam's Guardian (though it is a hand, not a face) is more like the Gabo technique: http://www.angelfire.com/mn2/sculptorsam/overviewindex.html
JAZ

[oddist]

Oddist,
I like the Gabo and am honored to be linked in your mind with that, but actually I think sculptorsam's Guardian (though it is a hand, not a face) is more like the Gabo technique: http://www.angelfire.com/mn2/sculptorsam/overviewindex.html
JAZ

I see your point about Sam's hand, but still stand by my initial reaction. Maybe it's because your pieces are "faces."

[Mordachai]

stupid edit

[clifton]

nosing in ... I checked out your site Wasabi, and I can see where you are coming from. The nose is an important part of your mask work.

One of the things I do are old lobster fishermen. Sometimes more in a caricature way, sometimes more realistic. The nose seems to rise to the forefront of making these characters interesting. It's just a prominent feature in the face and must suit the figure.

I don't know that I struggle with it, but I give it more than a passing thought, and try to ... not just make it fit, but see if I can have it add to the overall affect. Capturing the right look in these characters seems to have a lot to do with the nose in combination with the ears. The viewer looks to the eyes first, but it seems to be the nose that reminds them of a relative or friend ... or, gives the "look" if you will.

What I do, is keep an eye out for interesting looking old men. Now I don't go following them around, but whenever I see an interesting face, I make a mental note of the features, and may make a quick, noted scetch when I get home. It always surprises me how much variety there is in shape, relative location, etc., of both noses and ears.

Looking at the real thing seems to have been more help to me than art references, not that they aren't helpful. Of course, it won't be long and I can just use a mirror.

[Archris]

To be a little "nosy" about this....without seeing your work it is hard to suggest a possible solution or make recommendations.

I do figurative steel work and have satisfied my nose issues in different ways.

Go to my site South Wall (http://www.torchandpalette.com/topics/index.cfm?fact=detail&topic_id=64) for two examples.


Oddist, would you mind telling me what thickness of metal you used for the two masks on your site. I am currently experimenting with a rusty piece of metal which has been in my parents back yard for many years. (Ironicly it was tghe bottom of my childhood sand box.) While it is not very thick I have been trying to attain a feel what thicknesses are both strong and workable.

[RCFA-Raven]

Just wanted to say your piece is wonderful!


;)


Oddist,

I was finally able to view your website. I love Anguish, and the nose is very well done.

Here is the closest thing I have to it. I am using 3/16" steel so I think my material is far thicker in this particular case. I wasn't going for a true life nose although a bit more "true life" form might have made the piece more interesting. I broke the nose several times (cracked during bending) but the welded beads seemed to help it overall.

Modern Relic
http://www.people.virginia.edu/~wds3r/wide_eyes3.jpg

[RCFA-Raven]

All and all, some fabulous pieces posted. :cool:

[oddist]

Archris,

Material is approximately 1/16 inch thick (16 gage).