Extreme Sculpture!

[fritchie]

Something that Randy posted yesterday, in regard to possible obsolescence of figurative sculpture, “ What about the cross-over from sculpture to performance and video which uses "real" figural presentation? This area is surely not considered out-moded, and grows out of the classical figurative tradition.”, sent me off on a really wild train of thought overnight. If insight is the mother of invention, how about the following proposition:

Figurative sculptors present the human form in a way which leads people to see it in a new light. From this viewpoint, every person on earth is both a figurative sculptor and a figurative sculpture. The public at large supports figurative sculpture to a greater extent than all other forms combined. Do you agree?:)

[Araich]

Hi fritchie - nope I don't agree, lol.

In my humble opinion, performers etc should keep their hands off the word sculpture.

It's confused enough already!

This could get down to defining the word art, which is no help. But I feel to deny the object in sculpture is to miss the point altogether.

IMHO

[sculptorsam]

Ahhh, a welder after my own heart!

As was observed before, it is interesting that every "non-traditional" artform gets lumped into sculpture. Why not painting? Why doesn't the theater absorb these new performance artists?

I am definitely a fan of the object. Great insight and clarity can be gained in the struggle with/against the material. At its highest levels, the material is a collaborator with the sculptor. The material challenges the artist to confront the world that lies outside their mind.

Sam

[redrajah]

"Theater is a ceremonial; the performance is a rite. Sculpture in daily life should or could be like this. In the meantime, the theater gives me its poetic, exalted equivalent."
Isamu Noguchi on making sets for Martha Graham

"Everything is sculpture. Any material, any idea without hindrance born into space, I consider sculpture."
Isamu Noguchi

the photo below is noguchi's set for martha stewart's, herodiade 1944.

[redrajah]

and where does nam june paik fit into all of this? surely the content of his videos is as important as the constructions he builds with them.

[Araich]

Well my ex-army Uncle uses a brush to clean his teeth, so I guess that makes him a painter.

:p

[sculptorsam]

What we are talking about here are definitions. Definitions are by definition (ha ha) exclusionary/limiting. To say, "sculpture is everything" is not a definition. In fact, it negates sculpture. One of the basic philosophical maxims I learned in my limited schooling was : if everything is X, then nothing is X.

If everything is sculpture, then nothing is sculpture. The desire for all-inclusiveness devalues as to render meaningless the term "sculpture."

Sam

[fritchie]

Great discussion here! Of course definition is semantic, but semantics can prefigure creativity. Free your imagination! I, too, to reflect on one point, value the object, but I also value the purely conceptual in space, given expression through spatial traces or through words in combination with visuals.

About two decades ago, in an apex of “conceptual’ sculpture, I saw an installation which defined sculptural forms simply through pieces of thread running between tacks inserted into two adjoining walls and the floor. This also was a heyday of “ephemeral” sculpture, a statement that idea is everything. I’m afraid that I come down on the side of the object also, but ideas expressed in this abbreviated form can stimulate the imagination, if the viewer is open, and I do consider them legitimate sculpture.

[fritchie]

To comment on another aspect of this discussion, I’m sympathetic with Noguchi as quoted above. Sculptors are artists of three-D space, not to present a conundrum or circular semantics. I consider every spatial idea potentially a sculpture. To qualify, it should be poetic in some fashion and not purely rational.

Analyzing Nam June Paik, and not to be excessively critical of a highly acclaimed and creative artist, I’m inclined to consider his work a form of drawing or painting rather than sculpture, so far as I am familiar with it. The image on the surface of the television sets, rather than the spatial construction, seems to be the dominant theme.

[gordonrogers]

With reference to the theatre / sculpture cross over above. I've worked with performers in the past and it's really difficult to come to terms with (in and interesting way, but in the sense of have lots of interesting arguments).

When you take all the values that are important to sculptures - the material, its gravity and balance, all these very real things, it all suddenly evaporates when a performer interacts with it. Everything suddenly seems flimsy and false and 2 dimensional - props and set. Sculpture really struggles to share the limelight with a human being.

You can really clash heads with a performer with issues such as material, because they can imbue an empty cardboard box with any quality they like, but to you even the slightest nuance matters.

I can still remember having the row, and at the time I made a very eloquent point that involved shopping trolleys, but I can't remember what it was.

[redrajah]

sculptors design playgrounds and toys and fire hydrants and chairs and toothbrushes for araich's ex-army Uncle to clean his teeth :D and many, many useful things that don't just sit in white rooms and get revered. many pieces of sculture are only finished when in the hands of another. in the case of noguchi's sets, his work created a playground for martha stewart's dancers to play in, they became one thing. the dancers actually completed his sculpture.

[JHoughton]

So red, does this mean that Industrial Designers and Engineers are SCULPTOR'S? Good thing I am an Artist/Maker I wouldn't want to be associated with those types! I know I taught them in a shop course for a year in Grad school. Sculptor's YIEKS I think not:)

[redrajah]

Originally posted by JHoughton
So red, does this mean that Industrial Designers and Engineers are SCULPTOR'S?

frustrated sculptors... :p

[fritchie]

Where does that leave architects?

[Toby]

Been about 8 years now that I've been trying to integrate the Mechanical & Design Engineer (nice sssmeagol) side of me with the sculptor side (bad gollum!). Engineers have a terrible tendancy to retreat behind ergonomics, practicality, optimised product design and maths/jargon when confronted by the aesthetics of any object they may have a hand in.
One lecturer said that if an object fulfills its function, it is by definition aesthetic. Thankfully my memory preserves the anonymity of this individual.
Sooo, sculpture having a function is kitch. Mona Lisa bottle openers, jugs shaped like figures.. possibly any thing in which both the form and the function vie for supremacy.
Interpretation II: If an object has no intended function and yet is a deliberate creation, it must be assumed that the only catch-all category it can occupy is that of pure art, thereby having a function to fulfill.
Maybe this is how engineers are supposed to see the world.. do they buy art?
In my own case, I feel that engineering and sculpture are two sides of one coin. Both disciplines embody the pursuit of excellence, and the mapping of undefined territories.

[fused]

Does the opening ceremony of the Olympics qualify as Extreme Sculpture?
It definitely embraced and merged ALL forms of art into one moment.

http://www.athens2004.com/Images/Sport Gallery/Ceremonies/13 August 2004/51086559JS042_OLYopener_t.jpg

It was impresive in the extreme.

[fritchie]

Does the opening ceremony of the Olympics qualify as Extreme Sculpture?
It definitely embraced and merged ALL forms of art into one moment.


It definitely DOES, in my book, from your image! But I’m afraid I’ve become a cynic since US Oly sponsors tried to put this on exclusive cable 8 (?) years ago, and charge a fortune to watch. They flopped miserably, thank heavens, but since then, I’ve picked up whatever the print media publish.

Local TV, and national newspapers, did have a couple of articles recently on the original olympic games, which ran for almost 1200 years, from about 800 BC to 400 AD before they were killed by newer authorities.

It seems the famed Nero entered a 14-horse chariot in a competition which was limited to 4-(?) horse teams, and paid judges the equivalent of over a million dollars each to declare him winner in all events he entered. After his death, they had to surrender the money and his awards were declared invalid.

[JAZ]

Great discussion here! Of course definition is semantic, but semantics can prefigure creativity. Free your imagination! I, too, to reflect on one point, value the object, but I also value the purely conceptual in space, given expression through spatial traces or through words in combination with visuals.

About two decades ago, in an apex of “conceptual’ sculpture, I saw an installation which defined sculptural forms simply through pieces of thread running between tacks inserted into two adjoining walls and the floor. This also was a heyday of “ephemeral” sculpture, a statement that idea is everything. I’m afraid that I come down on the side of the object also, but ideas expressed in this abbreviated form can stimulate the imagination, if the viewer is open, and I do consider them legitimate sculpture.

Fritchie, you have reminded me of an installation sculpture I saw a number of years ago at the San Fransisco Museum of Modern Art. Fred Sandback had strung a line of yarn from a high ceiling to the floor, then across to a wall (like an "L" shape). Then he strung another line of yarn a few feet away, also from the ceiling to floor, then across to the opposite wall. With those two lengths of yarn he had created the illusion of two walls and a doorway. The psychological effect was clear and immediate and a marvel with such limited means. I stood aside watching viewer's responses. People would come up, look it over, walk through the "doorway" to look at it from the other side. Not one person broke through the illusion by stepping over the yarn line running across the floor. They watched and looked with the intensity you would expect from someone examining a mural or some other tangible thing. Perhaps they were letting their minds have time to realize that though the cues said"wall", it wasn't. How could such simple means play with our understanding of space and the physical properties of vertical forms in that way? One man pushing a baby stroller walked up to it and pretended to bump his shoulder on the "wall". It was amazing to me that Sandback had succeeded in toying with our innate perceptions in a way so engaging, yet using such a zen approach.
While taking an Art History course on ancient Chinese bronzes I once had to write an eight page paper on the enso - the zen symbol which is a circle made with a single brush stroke (which some designer borrowed later for the Lucent logo). Something so simple can contain much more meaning than something mostly overt. It is the same phenomenon that makes good abstract sculpture so compelling.
JAZ