self-taught

[Ameenah]

How many self-taught artist out there?
I am, besides a one class I've been learning as I go.
How important is formal training?
Will I be able able to get in galleries without a masters in fine art?
-Ameenah

[LostNYC]

Re: self-taught- I am

[Julianna]

I'm mostly self-taught. The only "introduction" I had was something like "This is soapstone, and these are rifflers. Enjoy.".

[JamesDFarrow]

Me too. Just started recently. The only help/info I am getting is from here or what I can find using google.

James :)

[bluedogshuz]

What a good poll. I'd have to say self taught but... I had alot of guidence by several wonderful men and women that have since passed to the great beyond! Wish I could find them, the critique was teaching. This site and encouraging critiques is teaching in my mind, so, its like this tradition among sculptors goes on... I am self taught or am I?

[Stevem]

I am self taught!

[Merlion]

I am semi-self taught. I started as a self-taught sculptor using polymer clay. Later on I attended classes at an art college to learn techniques for bigger sculptures. But at the same time, I do my own exploration into some new areas and techniques to broaden my scope.

[FireBeach]

currently a student at the university of northern colorado...I guess im one in afew that has a bit more formal guidence...

[iowasculptor]

I have invested a lot of time and money on formal training 9 years of college BA, MA, MFA. I think that you can learn a lot from just doing but their comes a point where you need to apprentice or go to school to really stretch beyond where you are comfortable. I also think formal training is critical in understanding contemporary issues related to post modern art. I don't want anyone to take this the wrong way as I am an art professor so I must plug my profession. There are always exceptions to everything and I think that most of you here would fall into the exception category, I wouldn't talk to you all if I didn't think that you had something of value to share. In the end its all about your passion, if you have a passion for it you will do what you need to do to get where you need to get if you don't you wont.

[Merlion]

Actually the class I attend is not formal which suits me. It is a two-year part-time course for adults conducted at a local art college. Each of these courses are by one instructor, and I deliberatly selected one instructor who is more easy going, giving us more freedom to try out what we fancy using selected techniques and a range of selected materials. What is important is that he can give us advice on the sculpting materials and techniques and give us assistance. Without such advice and assistance, I would have make mistakes and spoil some of my works. This shortens my fast learning curve. Also, this beats working alone with nobody to exchange experience and ideas.

This arrangement works out very well. I have now been at the class beyond two years and I opt to extend it to continue to benefit from it. At the same time, I now work very much at home after rearranging my space and installing facilities. I attach a photo of the external part of my home studio/workshop.

[Randolph]

I am a self taught, and self suporting for over ten years. I love not having any rules or preconcived notions about how things must be done.
I am a copper sculpture. With a torch, metal some skill and a little talent can take you a long way.
I am lucky to have a few artist friends that get my inspration juice's flowing from. I am hoping this site will provide the same.

[GaryR52]

Mostly self-taught, here, though I do have a degree in graphic design (and with that and two dollars, I can get a cup of coffee anywhere...er, except Starbucks).

Gary

[oddist]

Always a student--just no opportunity to go to school--so--self taught, still learning, and see no end.

[Zenos]

Self taught, trial and error.

[Blake]

I have studied art all my life and will continue to study for the rest of my life both formally and by trial and error.

Blake

[sculptor]

Autodidactic
hmmm.........
10 years 5 universities a handfull of sculpting mentors
"self-tought" seems that it would somehow diminish the value of my masters.

perhaps, rather, self motivated and directed

for art:
I think one needs to find one's own muse and voice before seeking the guidance of masters

once found, the value of the knowledge is focused and has a point of reference

also: when I teach sculpture, I learn from the students---I share their eyes and learn to see as they do

Gary-----ah the good old days in the small town of my youth----three sisters ran Reeves drugstore---served a nickle cup of coffee----and free advice if you were to ask...

rod
sculptor (http://sculpture.alturl.com)

[Merlion]

Being self taught gives one the freedom to explore, to strike out. But by attending classes, one finds out more about different techniques and materials, and how to reduce accidents and mistakes.

I find it suitable to have a combination of both. But I would avoid classes that provide too much guidance.

[ironman]

Hi, I can't believe that so many of you are self taught. All those basics, learning how to draw, how to see, how to do it realistically BEFORE doing non-obj pieces, if that is your intent. Learning from a PROFESSIONAL artist who has been taught by a professional artist before him. Learning to be self-critical of the work that you do, learning what art is all about, the journey of self discovery.
Art's not about copying the past, art is about finding your own voice, your own means of self expression and you can't do it properly without schooling. You are selling yourself short if you don't get proper training. Even Michelangelo was trained! Do you think he could have done what he did without training?
Just because you are selling doesn't mean anything, the general public doesn't know a God damn thing about art, so don't let it go to your head if you sell something, stay humble.
ART is my life and without being egotistical, or singling out ANYONE, I feel that I have good taste and a good EYE and the training to discern a good piece from a bad one. I really RESENT some of the SHIT that I see out there, which by the way has usually been done by UNtrained so called "artists".
With all sincerity and not wishing to hurt anyone's feelings, I give you this post and hope that both you and I, can and will do better sculpture because of it and this "sculpture community" web site. This is a great web site! I thank Russ and everyone here who contributes, whether or not I agree with them doesn't matter, we're all in this together.
Have a great day,
Jeff

[lewislazar]

Umm.... I'm new here but also self taught! Well... except for a Ph.D. in geophysics...

[ironman]

Hi Lewis, Well you're obviously not a self taught geophysicist so why do you think that you can be an artist and be self taught?
I'm not trying to put you down but I'm sincerely trying to find out why people, like you, who are intelligent and schooled in other areas think that they need no training to be an artist. It baffles me!
Have a nice day,
Jeff

[Jamo]

Self taught here. unless you include 3 years appreticeship at a foundry and 1 year at university for art. never did get an art degree though. I left art school to get a business degree to be better equiped to support myself with my art. my main goal is to be able to have a wealthy living through my art and
enjoy making it at the same time. Another thing that motivates me is the fact that after my career is over and I am old and grey I will be able to look back with satisfaction on the monuments and sculpture that I have produced and gain a sense of completion that I have contributed something. I am 24 years old and I have created a 1000 pd bronze monument already which is more than I could ever wish for at this age. I don't think the fact that I haven't finished my art degree will hinder me.

[sculptor]

... the general public doesn't know a God damn thing about art, ...,...I really RESENT some of the SHIT that I see out there, Jeff

...the general public doesn't know a God damn thing about art, ...
EEEK OH NOooooooo...

¿Feeling a bit like an arrogant elitist snob today are we Jeff?

and... "I really RESENT some of the SHIT that I see out there"

Yea, me too, especially some of the meaningless crap that comes out graduates of art schools and needs vast quantities of verbiage to explain why a pile of rusting welded boxes(or a roting log) symbolizes mans struggle with eleutheromania or crotch rot.

justathought
rod
sculptor (http://www.geocities.com/mandali/TAKEtheARTtothePEOPLE.html)

[iron ant]

Jeff,dude you need a valuim,opps in NM how bought a shot of tequila?Ever herd of folk art?We already had are tado about"seeing",so I wont go there.I have a BFA in sculpture and ceramics,I apprenticed for several yeaRS WITH A MASTER SCULPTOR WITH A phd,but I have learned more on my own by constantly producing,showing,and sometimes selling.I am a self taught blacksmith,but I was trained in lost wax ,Do not get me wrong,art school was a great fondation "for me",but to say you can not be an artist withpout training is absurd.How do you feel about todays technology where anybody with cash can put an idea on a cd ,send it to a foundry,digital stone .ect,and presto instant artist.How bout the landscape architects that use this thecnology to basically muscle us out of the picture.My 75 year old uncle is self taught artist,and has turned out work that blows my mind.My four year old thinks she is an artist when you put her in font of paint or crayons,I hate to break her heart and tell her jeff said she did not have formal training so her drawngs are not kids art?I recond your the one who said my work was simple decoration not art,thats okay because as long as my clients ,galleries,and kids enjoy it ,who the hell cares........................fired up ant p.s. posting detail of some self taught work for a commision,don't worry client made me take off detail after I was commisioned to do it,and I charged herfor the extra work to boot...............................m3 An art dealer acused me recntly of having acetylene induced parinoa,ya he was screwing me out of money,recond you got a dose too :) Blake great attitude.

[iron ant]

Ameenah,lost tract of question there,but you do not need a masters to get in a gallery.Masters are very helpful for teaching,and taking learning to the next level,but it is all about the art/person.If your work sells galleries do not care if you came from the moon.From what little I have seen in your work,you will have no troubles getting into galleries,but Atlanta is a very contemopary market,so life like bronzes can be a hard sell.You need to look aroud hotlanta and see what people are doing ,and you will find a gallery that fits your needs.I would also try showing in other regions that patronize your style of work.Also be sure to hook up with AFX stdio,s a good contact for your style of work.Andre is really gothic,but his detail and work are ausome....Eric

[oddist]

Has anyone out there not opened a book?

Has anyone out there not gone to an art museum and studied the work?

I believe being self-taught to be an honerable act of self-determination in any field.

Sheepskins have been over-rated (mindless (http://www.nhpr.org/node/9160 )).

[bluedogshuz]

I don't think we should run down OUR PEOPLE who are self taught, damn, its hard enough as it is. I think as this progresses there are probably more self taught then taught. The university is not exactly the guild system.. We don't have churches, government etc clamouring for sculpture. One of the most basic and enduring types of self expression goes unnoticed. It is a catch 22 because most sculptors are not making an acceptable living and to encourage people to spend countless $ to then be in a profession like this.. well you get my point? :confused:

[EJB]

Perhaps when this discussion is over we could get on with the proper way to skin a cat.

[iron ant]

B dog,I thinkyour right that we should support eachother ,and being self taught shows a drive to create,beats the heck out of being a couch potato.I believe the bottom line is passion and heart.Heck if I crap on toast and someone thinks it is genous ,so be it.Art is about self expression,motivating to creat at ones own will for the pleasure of satisfaction,and if a buck falls are way that is wonderful too.One of the few good decisions I made in my life was not to take a partial scholarship to get my masters,but to dive into the "real" world of being an artist.If I ever want to teach it might come back to bite,but my experience pales to anything I would have learned staying in school.I also had my sweetheart in mind who probally would not have been there when I returned three years later.This decision worked for my situation,I never would not encourage getting more training and studio time,but there is a point an artist has to let go of the system and become what ther inner soul directs.Self Taught or not is meeningless in the real world.Reality check says most of us will make are living other ways and continue to make art because that is what we are ,artist.Also ,I was wondering where the first cave men to do cave drawings got their degree,cave U of wee peir.

[lewislazar]

Hey Jeff,

Why do I think that I don't need formal education in art? Well, first of all, a lot famous artists had no formal training (Gonzalez was a metalworker, Gauguin was a banker - just to name two out of many many more). Secondly, I seem to be doing extremely well for someone with no "formal" training in art. A lot better than most.
I do think that artists who finish art school have a leg up on those who don't (at least where I'm living). This is because they come out and already have established connections with the art scene and the galleries know where they're coming from. The first question that always arises before the portfolio even leaves the bag is "where did you study?". The art schools here tend to try to influence the student, to churn out carbon copies of their teachers. This is not a good thing. And the crap that's coming out of a lot of these places today?? That's art???? Just because it has a stamp of approval???
Art is a passion. You can be taught the techniques of sculpture or painting, but if you don't have it, you don't have it. Technique is also something that can be found in books. Believe it or not - science, is the same way. There are self taught scientists (very, very few) and to be successful it also has to be a passion. There is also a lot of crap which passes as science, done by well trained people coming out of respectable universities. But while science is something that you need training to understand, art, at least in theory, is not. And besides, art is more accessible to Jo Public. It is everywhere - the streets, people's homes, museums. Give a two year old a crayon and he starts "creating". It is something that is deep within us. I may be self taught, but I have years and years of observation, reading, exploring and talking to others - and I am my own artist (and a pretty damn good one at that!!!).

[Merlion]

Hi, I can't believe that so many of you are self taught. All those basics, learning how to draw, how to see, how to do it realistically BEFORE doing non-obj pieces, if that is your intent. Learning from a PROFESSIONAL artist who has been taught by a professional artist before him. Learning to be self-critical of the work that you do, learning what art is all about, the journey of self discovery.
Art's not about copying the past, art is about finding your own voice, your own means of self expression and you can't do it properly without schooling. You are selling yourself short if you don't get proper training.

These are emotive comments that Ironman has posted. I'll try to analyse the issue raised.

Firstly this Sculpture Community is for all of us with interest in sculpting. There is no qualification requirement. And this should be so.

I am from the profession of engineering for which people entering it have to be suitably qualified both in education and in practice. This is because the works of engineers involve public safety as well as mathematical/analytical techniques.

Public safety is very rarely the issue for artists. 3D art involves some techniques, but a unversity degree is not the only avenue for acquiring them.

I think many of us who call ourselves self-taught in sculptures have also attended some training at workshop classes or informally by observing. These training may be on clay modeling, molding and casting, on welding frabication, on ceramic clay modeling and firing, etc.

Like many activities in life, whether we have degree or not, we find it beneficial to continue to pursue life long learning. The question is whether we have the passion for sculpting.

It is good to have a degree in fine art. I would love to have it, but not when I am already 62 when I started on sculptures. To judge whether I have attained professional standard, one does not check if I have a degree BFA. One should look at my artworks I produce.

[bluedogshuz]

Just a couple more thoughts... Someone mentioned learning from students. This is very important in Art because student and teacher can be interchangable not all professions can boast that. If I had a degree (I do have an AA and BS) I would promote my degree and hold myself up as a Master and may be inclined not to cut anyone any slack. Every profession organically tries to creat barriers to entry in order to conduct commerce. This is very prounounced in the late 20th century with a bend towards intellectualism and exclusivity driven by collectors. Artist can also rcognize the accomplishments and assist other Artist in becoming successful.. few professions have such an opportunity to help on another.

Non illigitamus carborundum :)

[ironman]

Hi, I too think that a BFA/MFA are overrated and you're right Rod, there is a TON of crap out there by people with degrees, and when it needs "vast quantities of verbiage", I flee. That's because, to me, we're making VISUAL ART which I think should be seen and felt rather than read about.
Look, I don't have a degree either, but I have many, many years of life drawing, painting and sculpture classes under my belt and was also an apprentise to another sculptor. I don't consider myself to be self taught.
I didn't think folk art was part of this discussion. Of course a lot folk art is great stuff, but I think the intent is different. Folk artists are just making stuff (this is not a putdown), expressing themselves the best way they know how and not trying to sell themselves as "fine art" artists, whatever that is. Sometimes I wish that I could do that kind of work, but once you've had some art training you can't go back without looking like an insincere impostor.
Iron ant, That bit about today's technology where anyone with money can put an idea on a CD, send it to a foundry and presto, instant artist. I'm not sure if that's much different than having apprentises weld or carve your piece for you. I think that technology is gonna eventually change the whole ball game, and rightly so, as we make art in the times that we live in and with the available technology that we can afford.
Your 4 year old daughter is a great artist and you can tell her that from me! Almost all kids do fantastic stuff, they're all creative and express themselves in an uninhibited and open way until they're around 10-12 yrs. old.
I was exhibiting some sculptures at a gallery once, they all had somewhat esoteric titles to them when some kid came along and called one piece "french fries". Well, he was right, but MY training and adult inhibitions blocked me from seeing that possibility or coming up with so simple a title. I wish, like Picasso did, that I could go back to that naive way of thinking and creating. It's seeing the world in a fresh, new and wonderful way, every day. Kids are great and teaching them art is a fantastic way to learn art, from THEM!
Gotta go,
Have a nice day,
Jeff

[iron ant]

Jeff,I understand what you are try to say,but I brought up folk art because it is a form of art that is self taught.I though you were barking about self taught artist,and folk art,at least down south,is represented by many fine art galleries.Fay Gold Gallery in Atlanta,national caliber,used to have a large inventory of folk art,and I believe the musuem has a whole section devoted to it.I believe folk artist are just as important as any other artist,although it is not my taste.
I was interested to see how you felt about todays technology.You bitched about self taught artist,but todays technology is going to put a lot of artist out of the picture.Architecs,designers and galleries will design there own things and we will become somewhat obsolete.If the dude down the road is boared,has deep pockets and decides he wants to make sculpture,I will just email this design to the shop with the digital machines,and bingo art that has never had ther hand touch the surface?How can you compare that to an apprendice.When I worked for Caroline MOntague for two years we did a lot of her work,but her design,finishing,and hands on approach was much different from a machine.Hey technology is great,but it is going to water down the pool of artist that create out of passioand will to create for self satisfaction.It blows my mind to think someone can have stone pieces carved,but never touch the surface.When I studied marble carving in Italy,the joy was working the stone,mind and body,pretty physical.I also realized I can not work negative very well,but I always will love working with stone.I guess I am old fasion in the artist sence,but maybe this site will change my views,it has before.off to the hot house...peace...IA

[ironman]

Hi Iron Ant, yeah, well I'm certainly not plugged into this techno stuff, but I do think it's the future whether we like it or not.
This earth and humanity that we live on and with is going to go forward (depending on your point of view) and just as I wouldn't give up electric lights for candles or my MIG welder for a forge, I'm not going to put down a method of creating that may be the future of art.
I think that there are a lot of creative kids today (everyone is creative in one way or another) who are totally immersed in the world of computers and 35 yrs ago they might have majored in art.
I think that the computer will open up creative opportunities that we can't even begin to think about. It's beyond our comprehension.
I understand your feelings about this, that any shmuck with a computer can send an image to a machine that will do the work for him but just think, we don't work as hard as our forebearers did so why should we expect people in the future to work as hard as us.
In comparison to the auto industry we're probably still in the model T era as far as computers go.
This is another subject altogether, so getting back to art and schooling, I think you're selling yourself short by not getting a good grounding in life drawing, realistic sculpture, art theory, etc.
You mentioned that "being self taught shows a drive to create" and I would say that getting some training shows a seriousness of purpose and a desire to (as they say in those Army ads) be all that you can be.
I wouldn't be doing this if ART wasn't my whole life and I'm certainly not in it for the money but I take it seriously when I go into my studio to play, create and work which all seem to melt together and I try to do that 7 days a week.
have a nice day,
Jeff

[iron ant]

Ironman,I think you miss understand my point.I am not putting technology down,I just feel that artist will become computer geeks instead of studio geeks,and will miss the enjoyment of touching,feeling,manipulating materials because it will be done on the computer.Now an artist as yourself that has experience first ,then turns towards technology is cool because you may at least understand the material you are using.The thought of someone having a carving done,but has never labored under a chisel first or wet sanded a stone through the grits is foriegn to me.Also,I might be short,but selling my self short,you really do not know me because I have been to art school in two different countrys{BFA},apprendiced with a master sculptor,and have enjoyed traveling and showing my work on a national level for twenty years,"hitting" musuems ,artist ,and galleries on the way.Now as we no ,I am not in it for the money either,but I do enjoy a sale or commision along the way.It is funny you mentioned trading mig for forge,because I bought a forge last year,and I have self taught myself to go back in time.A anvil,hammer,forge,swageblock,tongs,and I love the hard work ,and in the long run I hope it makes me a more well rounded artist to utilize my more modern equipment.I will admit though you are right technology will change the way we produce art,but I am gratefull my professor taught us the basics,buzz box and hand file,and yes I love my mig and right angle grinder too.What is funny we are probally more alike then are view points leed us to believe.Keep it hot bro..............IA :) p.s. darn if I just would have learned to spell,runs in the family my son brought home a paper that asked what he wanted to be in life"a ples",to my yankee friends thats police. :p

[ironman]

Hi Merlion, You stated that "being self taught gives one the freedom to explore, to strike out". Au contraire, Monsieur, being trained gives you the background to do that.
Having that knowledge and understanding that one only gets from training/schooling, etc. is what gives you the freedom to explore.
I don't think that you can explore unless you have some knowledge of WHAT you're exploring.
Yes, I know, folk artists, I love their work too, but I think it has it's limitations and I wouldn't compare them to Michelangelo, Rodin, Brancusi or David Smith, would you?
That's not to say that one genre is better than another but I've yet to see any folk art that I would compare favorably to the work of those four sculptors.
Have a nice day,
Jeff

[ironman]

Well Iron Ant, You've got a daughter who is now (because I said so) a great artist and a son who'll be a "plesman" (love it!). My kids are grownups now but I can remember and will always cherish those early years with them. Kids are great and I'm sure you're a loving and wonderful father to them.
Yeah, I know, these artists of the future will be computer geeks and will never have to sweat in a hot dirty studio like we do. They'll be out driving around in their B'mer convertible picking up chicks while some machine makes their sculpture for them.
I think you're just jealous!
We probably do have more in common than these posts lead us to believe and I think that may be true for a lot of us on this web site.
Have a great day,
Jeff

[sculptor]

... getting back to art and schooling, I think you're selling yourself short by not getting a good grounding in life drawing, realistic sculpture, art theory, etc. ...
Jeff

Jeff, I couldn't agree more...

I struggled with life drawing on and off for years, working in classes and with other artists who were mostly 2d artists, finding shapes and shadings which carried a somewhat realistic image....at times my perceived lack of ability depressed me, but I forced myself to join scheduled sessions and continue.
Sketching with fellow artists and setting the sessions as appointments kept me at it and over the intervening years, I've found those struggles an invaluable tool for seeing, a tool I use often.

have a pleasant evening
rod

[ironman]

Hi Bluedogshuz, I'm not trying to run down the people who are self taught but I feel very strongly (as I'm sure you can tell) that without a background of training/schooling, the self taught are selling themselves short and limiting their capabilities for creative expression.
My girlfriend teaches painting, privately(she has a teriffic background). She had one student who took 4 (that's right 4) classes and decided she was an artist, opened her own co-op gallery and considered herself a professional artist.
As you can well imagine, her paintings sucked, BIG TIME, and the worst part about this is that she considered herself to be a competent professional artist. She had absolutely no idea how bad her paintings were and that's because she essentially was self taught.
This kind of shit drives me up a wall, and as my friends always say, "hey Jeff, why don't you tell us how you REALLY feel."
I think that's because I'm a New Yorker, and you know, we're known for our blunt straight forwardness, at least I am.
Have a great day,
Jeff

[ironman]

YES, Rod, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I'M GETTING AT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Have a pleasant evening, yourself, and thank you!
Jeff

[Merlion]

I understand your feelings about this, that any shmuck with a computer can send an image to a machine that will do the work for him but just think, we don't work as hard as our forebearers did so why should we expect people in the future to work as hard as us.
Jeff

I suppose years ago, painters would in the same way felt unhappy about the popularity and convenience of photography, and asked if this should be considered as art.

[GaryR52]

Hi, I can't believe that so many of you are self taught. All those basics, learning how to draw, how to see, how to do it realistically BEFORE doing non-obj pieces, if that is your intent. Learning from a PROFESSIONAL artist who has been taught by a professional artist before him. Learning to be self-critical of the work that you do, learning what art is all about, the journey of self discovery.
Art's not about copying the past, art is about finding your own voice, your own means of self expression and you can't do it properly without schooling. You are selling yourself short if you don't get proper training.


Jeff, if there's anything I learned in college, it's that I was right all along in thinking that anything they could teach me, I could teach myself. The most important thing I learned in school was how to learn. With all the accumulated knowledge of mankind at one's disposal (i.e., libraries, the internet, various other sources), the motivated learner can teach himself literally anything, provided he's motivated to learn. I have taught myself inumerable things, from art skills to foreign languages to golf and I have always been an advocate of self-teaching. It's not for everyone (you have to be motivated to learn and you have to learn the skills of learning), but it does work. For some, though, one-on-one or classroom instruction is the way to go. Everyone is not the same.

Gary

[bluedogshuz]

Ironman,
I agree with much of what you are saying. Without the limited education I recieved I wouldn't have the foundation for what I do. I wish I could afford to go back to school to see what the youngin's are doing. Self taught or not I will continue to create because that is what I enjoy, If people want to lay out cash all the better. I'm not quiting my day job (restoring old houses) because people will pay far more for that then my sculpture, however, I bring to the table my senses as an artist when I work my "day job". As far as technology goes there are limitations. It's is still easier to wedge a block then to make all those cuts with a saw. And, believe it or not there are a lot of people that want to see the artist "fingerprint" on the work. We do cast that spell you know?

[ironman]

Hi, Aside from your creativity and intelligence which are innate abilities that you either have or don't, the single most important thing is a PASSION for what you're doing.
You can learn to open up your creative side, you can even raise your IQ to a certain extent and you can get training/schooling but like a few of you said previously and I'm sure most would agree (because I think we all have it), PASSION for what you're doing is VERY important.
I have the upmost respect for artists who are sincere, passionate and hardworking, regardless of their abilities. I'd take a person with those traits any day over a diletante with skill, talent and an MFA.
I'm pretty much a self learner myself, taught myself to weld and then took classes with skilled welders, where I learned a lot more.
Designed and built my own house with no prior construction or architectual experience.
It turned out great, people love it and it's very user friendly, all that in spite of my lack of training.
As an artist, the single most important classes that I took were LIFE DRAWING. Not to become a great draftsman, which I'm not, but to learn HOW TO SEE. This skill is invaluable, whether you're doing realistic or non-obj work.
If you don't know how to see as an artist sees, you don't know what you're NOT seeing. I don't know if that makes any sense but it's a skill that comes only from life drawing and I don't think that you can develop it on your own.
My life drawing teacher would just walk around the room, come up to your easel, look at the model, then at your drawing, give some little critique that ALWAYS opened another door to the insight of learning how to see.
Positive and negative space, highlight and shadow, shapes, forms and their relationship to one another, weighted line, contour, etc. are just some of the skills you learn from life drawing.
I use those skills every day of my life.
Merlion, Yeah, you're probably right to a certain extent about that painter/photographer thing, but I'll bet that many painters recognized the potential of photography to help them in their painting.
Bronze casting, oil paint in tubes (mid 1870's) and welding as opposed to blacksmithing are just a few of the technological advances that we all use and take for granted as legitimate tools for art making. So, I think that the computer will become just that (it already is), another tool in our inventory.
Computer technology today is still in it's infancy and we have NO IDEA where it will take us. Just think, years ago when the first computers were developed, it was thought that the WHOLE WORLD would only have a need for SIX of them.
Well, today, I'm sitting here typing this on a computer that's probably more powerful (not to mention, smaller) than all six of those early computers put together and there's one of these contraptions on MILLIONS of desks throughtout the world.
What a world we live in!
Have a great day,
Jeff

[Julianna]

Jeff, man, easy on the caffeine!

I really RESENT some of the SHIT that I see out there, which by the way has usually been done by UNtrained so called "artists".

I guess that's all a matter of opinion, because I've seen a lot of shit out there by persons who are so called "trained artists" ;)

To each his/her own, eh?

[iron ant]

Jeff,thanks for the props on the kidds,and yes I love my chaps and spend heeps of time with them,even when I should probally be at the studio at times.Dude I have been married for twentyfive years,Jealous over a freekinfBMW and chicks,not,But chaufere to my 100,000 squarefoot studio in a Bently,now where talking.Art is in the "eye of the beholder",but there is a lot of "week" art out there,but I believe there is more quality,just look at what a lot of artist are doing on this site,overall I feel very impressive in are own rights.My work is not totally abstract, and I have found the hard core "shape and formers' don't like it,but women and men that are not so macho like my whimsical side and craftsmenship.I say we switch gears and lets play with this one pal.Craftmenship and Art?Craftmenship is as important to the work as work itself.Once you start doing clean work it is hard to go back.let her rip,and jeff please drink a glass of warm milk,or cold beer,before you respond..... :p Arty ant gone bad p.s. God willing I will be hit by lightning or have my web page done for you guys to rip soon............. :eek:

[ironman]

Hi Julianna, Yeah, I agree, and have already been taken to task for that line.
Some of the stuff you see is just so much esoteric bullshit and some of it looks like stuff you did in art school years ago and did it better, and you find people oohing and aahing (whatever that is?) over it. Then you have the stuff that is so God awful, you can barely even look at it and that's because they have no training, and consequently haven't developed the taste or education to know the work is bad. Most of those people are diletantes anyway, so hopefully they'll find their NEXT passion and stop polluting my vision.
This isn't meant as a putdown to the untrained artists on this sight or elsewhere, but a plea to all the sincere, passionate people out there to LEARN.
Don't you want to be a better artist than you are?
I mean, I'm no great shakes as an artist, and I'm sure I've got a lot to learn and I'm learning every day, but at least I've got a good foundation behind me. I thank God, more and more for the teachers that I had and their insistence on learning to draw from the model, sculpt from the model, learn how to see as an artist sees.
What are you untrained people afraid of, it's ONLY an art class, they're not injecting you with some experimental drug or something.
Are you afraid you'll lose your individuality, your unique vision, that they'll steal your artistic identity, and turn you into a carbon copy of THEMSELVES?
Well, If you're not strong, they might, but if they're good teachers, they'll not try to change your vision but broaden your horizons and give you the foundation to do better work.
Isn't that what we all want? To do better work than we're doing now, I know I do.
I've done my share of crap, but fortunately, I've come to my senses most of the time and thrown those pieces in the scrap heap, and the few that have escaped my critical eye and made their way into a gallery, to be seen by the general public are to be quite frank, an embarrassment to me. I've taken those pieces out of the galleries when I finally realized how bad they were.
I think that if you don't pay as much critical attention as you should, and let ego get in the way, that kind of stuff happens.
The two things that I try to keep out of my studio are EGO and the DOLLAR sign.
In other words, I try to stay very critical of my work as it progresses, sometimes I'll sit for hours and just look at the work from different angles, deciding with my critical eye where changes, if any, need to be made. That, hopefully keeps the ego, which is the catalyst for making crap, out of any decision making.
I also never, ever, allow the money part of this business into the studio. I never think to myself, "well, if I make it this way, or make such and such, I can sell 10 of them", I work for myself only, my expression, my unique point of view. If you allow those money making thoughts to enter your studio, pretty soon you'll be doing someone elses sculpture instead of your own.
That's the beauty of a day job, it allows you to follow your own interests, develop your unique vision, without the pressures of making money from your art.
Not that money's a bad thing, it is nice to sell, and although it's not my motivation for making art, I do want to make more money from it. Having my work in a gallery, sharing my vision, stroking my ego, is nice but sales help put more steel plate and better tools and equipment in my studio so that I can make more stuff.
My kids, ha, ha, are going to have some mess to deal with when I'm gone!
Well, that's all for now, I look forward, as always, to the responses I get from these posts. I know it's not "bash Jeff" week at the sculpture community (I checked the schedule, ha,ha) and if I didn't think you were all as sincere and well meaning in your responses as I am, I'd come get you, and kick your ass!
I wish you all well and have a great day in your studio,
We are such lucky people to have art as our passion,
Jeff

[ironman]

Hi Iron Ant, you're a funny man! Warm milk? Yuck!
As Julianna said, go easy on the caffeine.
Well, I'm a caffeine junky, Im drinking my 8th cup so far this morning and it's hopeless.
I'm a native New Yorker and a caffeine freak. What a combination!
But, I am well meaning and sincere and hope none of you have taken my posts too personally. Believe it or not, I do screen what I say, but as I've said previously, my friends always say, "hey Jeff, why don't you tell us how you really feel?", and another friend used to tell me, "I suffer fools, badly".
Enough of that for now.
But I do like the chauffered Bentley and the 100,000 sq. ft. studio idea.
Craftsmanship, eh?
Well, you can't get very far in this business if your pieces are falling apart, now can you? Unless you're Yves Tanguay and made that sculpture that self destructs, but I think it malfunctioned and didn't self destruct as it was supposed to, so yeah, ironically, it wasn't well made.
I struggle with my craftsmanship constantly, even though I designed and built my own house and as a sculptor am constantly working with my hands, I've never felt that I was very good with my hands (not that, that's something else altogether). My father couldn't drive a nail in straight and my grandfather didn't know which end of the hammer to hold, fortunately I haven't inherited All of their genes, but I have inherited some.
I'm not entirely convinced that the craftsmanship is as important as the expression, vision, etc.
I'd rather look at poorly made work that talks to me emotionally, has feeling, expression, vision and guts to it, than a slickly done superbly crafted work that has none of the above.
I've gotta go, been on this site too long this morning, and the coffees kicking in if you know what I mean.
Have a great day,
Jeff

[realsculpt]

self taught, and though i have been a teacher, i think real work experience is much better. I have taken some sculpting classes, and read the books, and most of them dont teach the real methods used in making sculptures, moldmakeing, ect. Most schools dont even teach the difference of the clays, or how to use tools. I am a big fan of books, apprenticeships (for pay, no freebie crap) and trial and error. But, schools do have better facilites than most of us and the space and equiptment is usually worth the tuition.


Seth
www.forensicsculpting.com
www.realsculpt.com

[circusguy]

I'm self taught: ran screaming from Boston University after one semester, 20 years ago. I don't know what I'm missing, I'll admit that.
I know a man who now gives painting lessons to his former painting teacher. I know a woman who spent four years as a receptionist at an art college, and considers that "immersion" enough. She shows and sells. (say that one ten times fast.) I met a man who took a job teaching fine art at a university because he had given up on creating sculpture. Glad not to have taken his classes. Lastly, I know a gifted realist painter who is grateful she found no inspiring painting teachers at her university. She studied printmaking instead, and now is grateful that she doesn't need to "shake off" influence.
I would love to have the time and resources to get an art education, or even better, a Matrix-style education program infusion. When I go to see art, though, I'm not usually looking at how educated the artist is. I don't think you can create art improperly. I'm with you on this: it's all about the passion.

[Julianna]

Jeff, I certainly want to become a better artist and I'd like to think that anyone who is even vaugely serious about their artwork wants to improve it. I can't speak for the other self-taught artists (insert quotes wherever you see appropriate ;)), but although I'm self-taught I certainly haven't ruled out the opprotunity for learning from someone, whether it be in a formal classroom, a mentor-relationship, or on a forum such as this (of course, the latter is quite limiting for something as three-dimensional as sculpture).

I certainly see the value in receiving formal training, but there are many reasons (excuses?) why that's not feasable right now. The main reasons are lack of funds and lack of sources for a teacher/mentor who is a good match. For now, I'm happy with a slow development in my skill than to not be able to sculpt because I haven't eaten and don't have the energy to pick up a chissel ;)

[GaryR52]

...I know a man who now gives painting lessons to his former painting teacher. I know a woman who spent four years as a receptionist at an art college, and considers that "immersion" enough. She shows and sells. (say that one ten times fast.) I met a man who took a job teaching fine art at a university because he had given up on creating sculpture. Glad not to have taken his classes. Lastly, I know a gifted realist painter who is grateful she found no inspiring painting teachers at her university. She studied printmaking instead, and now is grateful that she doesn't need to "shake off" influence.

And so it goes just about everywhere. My chief complaint about all but one of my instructors, while I was in college, was that none of them actually taught a damned thing. Most spent their time talking at us and what they said was more beneficial to massaging their own egos than it was to actually imparting useful information. The rest of them didn't even do that much. The instructor who later wound up as head of the art department simply took the role and then left us to work on our projects the rest of the period while she did...whatever it was she was doing with all that time. The one instructor who actually taught anything (you know, actually demonstrated how to do something) was my ceramics instructor. Consequently, I still remember how to stack and fire a kiln today, even though I haven't used one in 17 years.

Another thing that made my B.A. in graphic design instantly worthless as soon as I received it was the fact that, in 1988, when I was completing my degree, there wasn't a single computer graphics course in the program. The very next semester, after I graduated was when they chose to start a computer graphics curriculum. So, that explains why I never got a job as a graphic designer. Just as well, I was already making more money doing architectural drafting.

To reiterate what I said earlier, if you sincerely want to learn anything, you don't need a school to do it. As it turned out, I taught myself more by reading books checked out of the library than I was ever taught in my classes.

To be fair, though, this is a critique of university art departments, most of which are abyssmally deficient. Private art schools are quite another matter, however. There, you might actually learn something (if you can afford the costs).

Gary

[F.C. White]

No one can teach you to be an artist. You either are one or you're not. I, too, thought I could better myself in art by getting the "degree", as it were and have something impressive to show on a resume or a bid form for public art commission. So... five years later, with degree in hand, still no work worth mentioning or worth writing home about. So I sought a more front line source to field my inquiry off of in this regard... a well known professional in sculpture work I truely admired. His input snapped me back to what I'd always felt was the real meat to what determines whether an artist is successful or not. It has absolutely nothing to do with "certificates". It has everything to do with determination, creativity and a passionate love for what you do. If your heart is in your work, others will see it for what it really is. If you're just producing "stuff" for sale, it too will be evident in your product.

Most all artists (who aspire to call themselves as such) have known it since they day they first picked up a crayon. It's as though we have lived a life before exploring this wonderful form of soulful expression. We can no more deny ourselves the creative side to our nature than a dog can to discipline itself not to bark. As far as being self taught.. .of course we are. No one can see what it is in our heads that we feel the need to express in forms of art. Therefore, at best, all we can do is "talk" about what we want but until we actually get motivated enough to pick up an instrument and commense to "getting there" on paper or through other mediums on our own we're simply at a stand still and frustrated with ourselves. Therein lies the difference... whether we run ourselves off from this lifestyle out of frustration (as my brother did) or find it within our souls to MAKE it beyond our impasse and achieve a learned experience on our own. With each step we take we're motivated by the success to try more.

I have certainly learned a lot on my own, but I will admit I always keep a sharp eye and open mind toward what others do in technique. I can learn a heap of information just witnessing an image of someone's work.

But as a final statement toward your question... in my opinion.... of course we're self taught. I can't imagine any other way to fuel the passion we each have for the arts.

[GaryR52]

True, to an extent. You can teach the fundamentals of art; i.e., what it is, what it consists of, the properties of art media and tools, and you can teach the mechanics and theory of using them, but, beyond that, the student is pretty much on his own, learning by doing.

In my case, the degree being in graphic design, it was all to get the piece of paper that says I'm a graphic designer, so I could get a job as one. As it turned out, most of us never got our foot in the door, of course. At the time, as well as before then, I had learned, by observation and by experience, that if I wanted to learn anything, schools are totally unnecesseary, indeed, they can be obstacles to learning. But, despite that knowledge, I also knew I had to get the sheepskin in order to get the job, or so I believed. As it turns out, the people who do the hiring in design studios could care less if you have a degree in graphic design or none at all. The only thing they're intersted in is what you can do for them right now. The value of the degree is only in showing that you've been to college.

Gary

[tobias]

Hi Lewis, Well you're obviously not a self taught geophysicist so why do you think that you can be an artist and be self taught?
I'm not trying to put you down but I'm sincerely trying to find out why people, like you, who are intelligent and schooled in other areas think that they need no training to be an artist. It baffles me!
Have a nice day,
Jeff

I think you are opening a really ugly can of worms here man . If you need to be schooled to be an artist we are all screwed. Who gets to decide if we qualify to be called artist. YOU? I hate being associated with all the schooled artists out there it looks as though the only thing they learn in school is how to try and shock people. Now this is an art form but it is not art. If as you say the public has no idea why do we need to be taught that idea? I respect that you have a strong opinion about this but your opinion is just that an opinion. I would rather be called an autist than an artist in todays world. Oh um no offence to any autistic people.
So if you guys cant tell from this i am self taught . I stopped training when i had an instructor call me a looser in high school cause she didnt like my work . Schooling isnt for every one . It is not necisary. If you want to keep your own ideas stay out of school kids. Learn on your own.Emancipate your selfs from the oppression of conventional thinking. hahaha. OH AND HAVE FUN DOING WHAT YOU LOVE even if no one gets it or wants to buy it .

[GaryR52]

I tend to agree with much of what Tobias has said. Since the stone age, art has been an endeavor of self-discovery for the vast majority of artists, both "amateur" and "professional," alike. I believe that, historically speaking, self-taught artists by far outnumber those who have been trained by others.

I'm not saying that training isn't necessary or desirable; for some, it obviously is. For some others, it is not only unneccesary, but can actually thwart an artist's growth. In that, I certainly include the typical university art program, which instills a kind of orthodoxy of thought more so than it imparts a knowledge of media and processes. If you hold to the idea that art is as much about self-discovery as it is about object making, then schools are not necessary to that process. More so than any other field of endeavor, such as geophysics, art is a subject in which self-teaching (or true learning) is an individual act of experimentation. It loses something when we attempt to codify it and present it as a series of step-by-step instructions similar to what one may use to assemble a chair.

This was expressed to me by one of my professors, who said that he strongly objected to painting classes in which students are instructed to mimmic the actions of the instructor, step by step. This is not learning "art," but merely learning how to copy the mechanics of the artistic process without first having gone through the thought process of arriving at an idea - preferably one's own idea - and then selecting the best route to expressing it. Can art be taught? Well, you can teach someone how to apply paint to canvas, how to hold a chisel, or how to work clay, but you can't teach someone how to be creative, how to have ideas of their own. This is something that only the artist himself can do and only through experimentation. This is best acheived when the individual accepts the idea that learning to become an artist is an act of self-discovery more than it is a rote memorization of mechanical skills. Creating art is not like assembling furniture or learning how to troubleshoot an air conditioner. It is not like creating widgets on an assembly line.

Gary

[cpsturrock]

Does it matter? No,but the four years I spent in art school were some of the funest I,ve had. Sex,Drugs,Music,and oh yes art. You all have know idea of what you missed.

[Merlion]

Back to this interesting thread on sculptors being self-taught. I notice some interesting insights in the Preface of Tuck Langland's 1999 book on "From Clay to Bronze". Tuck is a higly regarded figurative sculptor and educator.

"One way to learn is by taking classes. Collages and Universities offer courses in sculpture, but be warned - most emplasize the avant-garde and do not teach classical figure and portrait modeling. If that's what you want, those clases won't be of much use. ... There are also one-week courses ... These schools, and others like them, offer short programs of intensive instruction in various aspects of sculptures. Courses often last for a week, and can be very rewarding. There are no degrees or grades, just work and learning. ...

"And then there are books. From Clay to Bronze takes its place on a broad shelf of books on sculptures ... These go back to the famous books on modeling by Edouard Lanteri from around the turn of the century, and carry on with Sculpture Inside and Out by the great Malvina Hoffman. ...

"In the end, taking classes and reading books are only preludes to the real learning, which can only come from making sculptures. Just like learning to play the piano, it's all about practice. ... There are many ways to start being a sculptor, of course and it's true that a real sculptor never stops learning. ..."

These are words of wisdom from a good and experienced practitioner and educator.

[Michael Church]

Wow what a hot topic. So, we agree, there is crap made by untrained "professionals" and garbage created by educated "professionals" (but explained eloquently) [sometimes]. So I guess its really up to the individual to lead a happy life and for the viewer of the "art" to have an experience with it and maybe have a wee bit of an internal dialog due to it. It really doesn't matter what item of art work you are talking about, there will be people who like and dislike it, regardless of the artist's training. Funny, eh?
I did not go to an accredited school, I chose to dabble in various forms of art, and seek out beginners level jobs in my chosen field. Usually starting as an intern, then getting paid gigs. I always like taking classes offered by instruction for hands on purpose type schools. They are frequently a great gateway to getting jobs in the "industry". Of course one needs to show some apptitude, crack the books, and spend some time working with the materials of this chosen field.
It has always seemed to me that those who choose to get degrees do have a leg up in that they form connections with currators, galleries, etc. But those who choose a self guided education seem to start producing work and selling it quicker. I have always gotten a kick out of working along side folks with MFAs and making the same day rate but not needing to pay a giant student loan off.

"the four years I spent in art school were some of the funest I,ve had. Sex,Drugs,Music,and oh yes art. You all have know idea of what you missed."
I guess you didn't know that there are sex, drugs, music, liberal pals and lots more in any major city. You don't need to spend the loot on a University to party. So now I work for a very established sculptor, he gives me great crits and introduces me to all his clients and gallery reps. So I guess I am making the connections after all. And no loan to pay off. I sometimes wish that I could go to school and just focus on learning and refining my body of work, but, in the end, just like everything in life, it has its ups and downs. I guess my final note is, pay attention to what works for you and stick with it, don't doubt yourself, believe in your path and follow it. Not every gamble I have taken has paid off, but, most have!
Life is too short to spend it on resenting "bad" art. Go make some "good" art.
Peace
Murk1

[cpsturrock]

Lighten up. It's a expanding universe there's is room for everyone. Unlike any big city, it's a tribe.The focus was one of expearimentation,the shareing of ideas,opinions. Some of the conversations between painters and sculptors describeing how they see the 3-D world, Priceless. I believe Marcel Duchamp once said " there's lots of good art, but very few good artist" I have been a professional Sculptor for over 20 years,and it all started with the 4 years of freedom to pursue ideas. Some times I think this is all taken to seriously. At the end of the day, it is, a luxury, to create and consume any type of art.

[iron ant]

this is all taken to seriously. At the end of the day, it is, a luxury, to create and consume any type of art.[/QUOTE

Yo bro you have a point.Are sculpture department was on the 4th floor of the tallest building back then on campus.We all had keyes to the building and we worked,contmplated,and played late into the night.There were only a few of us,but we took it sereous,but we also enjoyed the moment............IA ;)

[Jerrya]

Hell of an interesting post!

I’m moved to add my own little bit.

I think I’m one of those you would consider self taught. I can honestly remember my father handing me some clay when I was about 4 or 5. He couldn’t sculpt to save his life as I recall nor was he into art. Why he gave me clay…I’ll never know. So I didn’t grow up with even a moderate art influence.

I’ve been sculpting since then, trial and error getting deeper and deeper into it. I didn’t take my first formal art class until college. Sculpting 101 was mostly a disaster. The Prof at the time was more a painter than a sculptor and it showed. I sadly found right off there was little she could show me. She told me many times that I was “doing it wrong” Apparently my poorly self taught ways were not good enough for her.
Bitter? You bet…
That put me right off from taking any more classes. Sure looking back it was one woman and I should have known that others would be better. The lesson I took from that experience was that I didn’t need someone else. I know now that I can gain from technical experience from others, like what clay to use for this...or what mold material to use for that and so on, but no one can change or improve my ability but myself.

~Jerry

[arcdawg]

well I am a trained weldor but hated working in shops for $10 an hour and nearly taking my life in my hands everyday I punched in......So I decided to see what I could do using welding as a creative medium...... it has worked out okay but it can always be much better (lol)

I do have the chance to work with a Known sculptor but they dont do 1 person classes....and I dont work well with others :D


dawg

[GWayne]

I am a self-taught painter and sculptor.


Some of the greatest artists, musicans, inventors, and film directors were self-taught. Garbage is made, found, promoted, and celebrated in the elitist circles of the art world . Having a degree from a prestigious school doesn't validate an artist's work.

[Jay Long]

Man there are so many vocal artist out there, that just had a natural talent to sing, I my self am a self taught musician, I have never been to school for music, but I like it. so I read and enjoy as much of this stuff as I can get. I am not a professional musician, but I have played my classical guitar night after night and put my daughters to sleep. They think I am great! Now what I wouldnt give to have had a formal education in music. I have also been a metal fabricator for years, a couple of years ago I said to myself that I didn't see much interest in this field. because I understood it to a degree that it no longer held the element of suprise for me. So I wae going to walk away from it all together, and see what else life had in store for me. But then I had a thought, and decided to take this skill I had. to the next level. So I started making things, I do not call myself an artist, and never have. but most people who see what I create call me an artist. Point is this. I read through this post pretty much from the beginning, and read alot of different thoughts on being self taught or trained. I believe in training, Ideas that are givin to you, are gold. You can never take the attitude that you are an Island. But for some of us (myself included) Self taught is all we have. Jay Long

[GWayne]

For me it is about creating art, sharing it with those who are supportive of me, and then trying to find others who will appreciate my artistic vision. Degree or no degree we are all trying accomplish the same things(recognition, monetary gain, personal fulfillment) just at various levels.


GWayne

[classicalsculpt]

I am an avid learner and interested in various branches of study that will help me as a sculptor on my own. It is always better to know more rather than less. I believe an artist is not open to thier full potential till one really has a burning desire for learning about nature, at least in the field of representational art.

As a representational figurative sculptor, the only places that teach the things I need to know are the private ateliers of living masters or thier workshops. So until I am fortunate enough to travel to Italy, I have simply studied the curriculum outlines and set to learn this specialized knowledge on my own, and work hard at it daily.

For me, that means studying the specific branches of human anatomy in the areas of the skeletal and muscular systems (or osteology and myology), from anatomy and physiology books, the mechanics of the body and how it works, and not just artistic anatomy from a visual aspect, (a life cast skeleton if you can) along with copying classical casts of master works in the beginning, a few good books of the best instruction, and practice, practice from life.

A model with years experience working for many artists commented to me that the best artists he works for are mostly self-taught, and the art school students seem to struggle alot. The reason for that, I told him, is not the students fault, but the lack of knowledge of the teacher.

[lesliepatrick]

Well if only Vincent could have got a BA he might have reached his full potential.

[lesliepatrick]

I dont get it - you are also self taught.

[classicalsculpt]

Don't understand you comments.

Self-taught in the sense of reading books in the library, and research in other areas on my own. But if I had the chance, I would study under a living master, as I think it would help me to advance and accelerate the self-study process.

Most master artists from art history, though not all, were taught by a living master in thier studios. This is the model for modern-day ateliers- a small gathering of students taught privately in the studio of a living master of representational art.

A university art education is a very different thing. Many teachers are not master artists in the sense of traditional representational art.
This does not apply to modern art, as it is a different philosophy than mine, so am not qualified to comment about it, nor am I interested in debate.

All I want to do is share my experience. If someone is helped by it, then that is all that counts.

[HappySculpting]

Hi Everyone, :)

I guess the question that Jeff was bringing up is, "What is an artist and does it require a degree?". That can be an entire poll in itself.

On the point above, I feel I've been an artists since I was 7 years old and avidly drawing. I have a 9 year old niece that lives and breathes art and she is a "little artist" for sure. An artist is a self declared title that anyone has the right to call themselves and define their own being.

I am an artist, a self taught one. :) I feel I would have been able to progress much faster in the sculpting field had I had an excellent teacher. That is a no brainer. (Many schools don't have fine teachers, however, and you can come out with a degree in art and learn everything the bad teach taught.)

With the advent of the internet, being self-taught is so much easier. It's like taking a college course if you apply yourself to all the knowledge out there. With all the forums, you can have your work critiqued but professionals in the business. Tutorials exist in abundance. The internet, the self-taughts college.

BTW-I've been accepted in to an exclusive S.F. gallery right next to Pier 39 and the Chocolate Factory! Soon I'll post my sculpture that will go in it for review and the "serious critique". I love the internet!!!!! :D

[GWayne]

HappySculpting,

Congrats on being represented by a gallery. :)

GWayne

[Herman]

I am 32 and just beginning to regularly produce. I feel I have studied all my life. Tonight I read about promoting. As an artist you are in the business of art. It is a business venture. Years ago, I found ornate plaster ornamental molding from the Train Depot in Detroit. I spent hours cleaning the pieces and making molds. In my eyes these are masterpieces. I learned traditional representation of acanthus leaves. I traced the small folds and learned how to reveal just a flit of underside and retain the low profile. I learned about the craft of molding and math of repetition. I value that self induced exposure and I see its influence. I also see the influence of Beth Cavener Stichter (http://followtheblackrabbit.com) whom I have only visited online. I often weigh the advantages of formal education in this field. I want to here from those of you who have done formal and value or disregard its value. Most important, are your reasons. TIA.

[bobcoon]

What an interesting thread. It seems the self-taught take offense at the from-others-taught and vice versa!!! If it were that easy there would be no question!!!! I have two degrees in art from well respected institutions, but what I am as a sculptor has been formed through my questioning and involvement in the forty years that came after the schooling. Am I self-taught? Or perhaps a better question... Does it matter if I am self taught?

[Archris]

Went to the University of Florida for Architecture. Recieved a 'bachelor of design' degree but all welding/fabrication has been self tought.

I love learning so much I would go to school for my entire life if I could.

[Archris]

Went to the University of Florida for Architecture. Recieved a 'bachelor of design' degree but all welding/fabrication has been self tought.

I love learning so much I would go to school for my entire life if I could.

[GWayne]

Art schools can't teach an individual to have the "eye" or talent as an artist.

[RCFA-Raven]

I am mostly self taught but like others have had outside guidance from time to time from different masters and books. I can't quit my day job yet, so does that still qualify me as an “Outsider” artist? :p

[eddy]

yes you are probably an "outsider artist" but its all about your work,your work will tell you what you are,eddy

[GWayne]

It's a question that bedevils collectors and critics, who also worry about related terms such as folk art, self-taught art, vernacular art, naive art and primitive art -- words on which there is little consensus about appropriateness or even meaning.

Roughly, though, a working definition of outsider art could go like this:

Works of art -- paintings, drawings, sculptures, assemblages, and idiosyncratic gardens and other outdoor constructions -- produced by people who have had little or no formal training in art and who produce (or at least began by producing) art without regard to the mainstream art world's recognition or marketplace.

These are people who make art for themselves or their immediate community, usually without recognizing themselves as artists, at least until some collector or expert comes along to inform that they are making art.

There are a number of problems with the concept, however. There is implied elitism, for one, since outsider art implies there is someone inside designating these others as outside. And just what are they outside of? Art schools? Museums? The gallery world? Culture altogether (which some see in the extremes of insane art -- the original paradigm for outsider art)?

How outside must someone be to qualify, and what happens when they are discovered by art aficionados and start being influenced by them? Finally, why not call their work just plain art? Why segregate it?

These questions have been debated at length in any number of books and articles, but as a matter of convenience the term remains in wide use. Partly it seems to persist for commercial reasons -- demarcating a particular sector of the art market -- but it also remains a handy shorthand for work that is seen to have different motivations, histories and concerns than that generally produced by art school graduates.

Its visionary quality, putative naivete or innocence, unpretentiousness, freedom from formal constraints, ingenious use of materials, left-field creativity, wild subject matter or some combination of those qualities are not exclusive to outsider art, of course, but they are to some extent typical of it.

Source:Wedbands

GWayne

[ewbrown93]

ive never went to school for art but still everyday i carve/cut limestone for the biggest outfit in the world i am one of the few without schooling and im one of the best thier so as far as "outside" they can have thier school and groups but art dose not come from that it comes from inside from you not a text book on how 2000 other people do it after all if we all did art the same whats the point???

[Merlion]

This is interesting. Here is somebody who didn't have any artistic background, but win awards for his sculptures. Oh, by the way, he teaches culinary skills, and his sculpture material is very unusual. :)

Armed with a special type of fat, Gary Schofield created this award-winning sculpture of Harry Potter.
The lecturer at Huddersfield Technical College in advanced culinary skills took silver at an international catering competition having sculpted a buffet centrepiece of the famous wizard.
Mr Schofield, 32, from Holmfirth, was awarded the silver medal in the Works in Fat category at the Salon Culinaire International event held recently at Hotelympia, London.
Chefs from all over the world competed to create a decorative work in fat with entries judged on creativity and presentation.
It took Mr Schofield 20 hours to carve Harry Potter out of a type of fat which doesn't melt easily.
"I haven't got an artistic background but I seem to have a flair for this type of sculpture," he said.
He says the sculptures are created in the same way you would work with clay.
"Firstly you make a frame which you put the fat on to get the basic shape then you clean it up and add the detail with tools. The sculptures can't be kept forever but will last for up to 18 months."

More details here (http://www.yorkshiretoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=1084&ArticleID=1376359).

[tonofelephant]

AS to self-taught/formally schooled it is a tough conundrum. Was a sucessful artist for 10 years. Went back to school to wrap up BA degree before the credits got too old and out of date. Having gone to 11 colleges over 20 years will give you problems like this. Anyway, I feel school is optional - depends on the indivdual. I found that when I went back to school I needed to get a lot of formal training quickly. Got very little formal training but a lot of studio time. Also got some help, but not much. Mainly left to fend for myself. Beleive me that either works and you move ahead or you crash and burn.

Did learn that I have an extremely limited aptitude for formal drawing. I am quite talented though with any kind of drafting tool which is how I have designed all of the furniture I have built. Most important thing I learned in college was if drawing is not your thing and you want to sculpt - not a problem. That is why clay was invented. I think in 3-d. I work in 3-d. Why take a 3-d object translate it into 2-d (drawing) then back to a 3-d object? Never made any sense to me. So now to work out a sculpture problem that is in my head - clay is the way.

If I need to make a proposal and need drawing assistance - I can call on my wife the painter. A truly talented woman. She tells me drawing is easy. I just look at her with adoring eyes and nod my head as if I could ever understand that concept much less do it.

[Merlion]

I think in 3-d. I work in 3-d. Why take a 3-d object translate it into 2-d (drawing) then back to a 3-d object? Never made any sense to me. So now to work out a sculpture problem that is in my head - clay is the way.

I understand many sculptors do sketching to help them visualise new 3D ideas. Although I can sketch sufficiently well, somehow, I don't have this habit. Perhaps like you, my new sculpture ideas are already in my head in 3D forms and I proceed to make clay maquettes of them.

On the other hand, I do practice life drawings to improve my skills knowing the male and female human figures and anatomies.

[G. Murdoch]

Greetings,

I am currently in Santa Fe, living and working with my friend and mentor, Somers Randolph. He is the master, I am the apprentice.

Somers is a wellspring of original abstract shapes. He cannot teach me how to generate original ideas.

He has very highly evolved visual thinking skills, which enable him to carve these abstract compositions. He cannot teach me how to think visually.

Somers can use a wider variety of tools, with a greater level of skill than I. He has learned a great deal more than I about the nature and limitations of various stones, tools, and finishing techniques, as well as sales and marketing strategies. This is the primary value of my education with him. These are the things that can be taught and learned. I am grateful for the opportunity.

Graham

[Hallac]

Self taught,..eyes wide open - usually.

[jim]

Self taught...It isnt cheap learning on your own! Might take a tig welding class at the local tech school..

[Destiny]

Hi Rod,
Very well said!
I think the level of "natural" talent that one might have, will/could determine their success. Be it personal or monetary.
Thanks for sharing. I'm looking forward to reading more of your postsAutodidactic
hmmm.........
10 years 5 universities a handfull of sculpting mentors
"self-tought" seems that it would somehow diminish the value of my masters.

perhaps, rather, self motivated and directed

for art:
I think one needs to find one's own muse and voice before seeking the guidance of masters

once found, the value of the knowledge is focused and has a point of reference

also: when I teach sculpture, I learn from the students---I share their eyes and learn to see as they do

Gary-----ah the good old days in the small town of my youth----three sisters ran Reeves drugstore---served a nickle cup of coffee----and free advice if you were to ask...

rod
sculptor (http://sculpture.alturl.com)
:D

[Destiny]

I forgot to say...I'm self teaching...LOL
I think one never ceases to learn or be taught.

[justme]

My Goodness!!!!
I skip a day or two and books are written.
I have my BFA and MA in sculpture.
For the record, I went back to school at age 38 to finish my undergrad in sculpture. At 40 I took a secretarial job at the university to get my graduate degree for free (our kids needed tuition too) while attending night classes.
Finished at 45.
Did what I had to do to get what I had to get and have learned from doing and teaching ever since.
Wouldn't change thing.
J

[GWayne]

It is not how you obtain the knowledge, but what you do with it that really counts in the end.

GWayne

http://www.georgewayne.com

[HorseModels]

What an enlightening thread!

When I was going for my degree, I started out my third year at the University of Washington trying to get into the art program as a major. I couldn't even get it as my minor, so I majored in marketing and minored in geology. I took as many art classes as I could in junoir college, including one sculpture class. The teacher and I didn't see eye to eye, so he was harder on me than anyone else in the class. He didn't like realism for sculptures (his sculptures were stick figures). He was still teaching last I heard (and not selling his art). I went on to make a living sculpting, even though I did not end up with a four year or more degree.

Just because I didn't finish my degree, it did not stop me from learning all I could. Art schools can teach you techniques, NOT talent. If you have talent and a desire to learn, you can be a successful artist/sculptor. My work tends to lean towards realism because the clients who purchase my sculptures can relate better to it. Yes, I suppose I could have finished my degree in art and be making sculptures of the Madonna out of elephant dung, but that is not my thing. I do read books and take classes to learn what I want to learn, not what some stuffy professor at a university wants to put in my head. In January, I will be taking private instruction on how to weld. I watched the welders at the foundries do it for over 25 years. I figured it was time for me to learn how to do it myself, for convenience and self satisfaction.

I hate to see people put down because they are said to be self-taught. Some of the greatest people on Earth has been said to be self-taught. Since I did not get a four year degree, I consider myself self-taught as well. Anything I feel that I am missing in my eduction, I learn from others, whether they teach at a university level or otherwise.

Just my $.02 worth. ;)

[HorseModels]

I guess inflation causes me to add another $.02 worth.

I did mentor a high school budding sculptor for her school project and showed her how to make a RTV silicone mold for her sculpture. It took three days, but she got commended for her project and now she is supporting herself and her dad with her sculptures. I have been asked to either train privately or with groups or make a DVD of my techniques. My techniques are totally unconventional, but they work for me. I depend a lot on places like The Home Depot for innovative ideas and shortcuts for my medium. I learned a 400-year-old technology on the lost wax process in college, but that information did diddly-squat when it came to making a living from that information. Getting in at the foundries and getting my hands dirty and my feet wet, so to speak, helped me more than any college could. These foundries came up with time-saving innovative techniques on how to sculpt and cast bronzes. You won't find this information in ANY university. You want to know why? Because those university art professors don't have to make a living with their sculptures. Anyone who does finds the old saying, "Necessity is the mother of invention" to hold true.

I guess I am not only self-taught but self-teaching as well. :)

[dilida]

I'm self taught, with a few classes and courses, and working with other artists. working totally alone is great, there is nothing like self-discovery, but other people do help you get out of your comfort zone, which leads to more discovery and hopefully more satisfying creations. I don't buy into the notion of formal traing being so important. Not everyone has the means or opportunity to aquire it, but their work is just as important.

[KeithBentley]

I am self taught.

[GlennT]

I am self-taught for sculpting, having come at it by the good fortune of having my first sculpture commissioned when I was an architectural designer.

Fortunately, I went for some art training after that, learning drawing and painting at an Atelier which taught " Classical Realism" as had been done in the 18th and 19th centuries in France. 1 1/2 years of this was a highly important bit of training and exposure to a new way of seeing and thinking about art. It gave me much greater confidence and a method to tackle a wide range of artistic possibilities.

As with architecture, most of my learning in sculpture has come from going to libraries or used bookstores to pour through hundereds of art books and visually learn from the mistakes and successes of artists from the past.

Had I done none of the above but only relied on my self-taught approach, I think my works would suffer from lack of knowledge and refinement that these studies have enabled me to percieve.

In figurative work, there are subleties of form that many artists miss, that may be the result of the self-taught only approach. One such example is how the corner of the mouth is depicted. If you look at Heidi's ( Buster ) self-portrait in the Photos section, for example, you will see that she understands how to model that. ( I don't know what, if any training she has, but she has a well-trained eye ) Had she not been perceptive about form at that level, the work would have a much less realistic feel to it. But the skill exhibited there as well as everywhere else on the form is what helps breathe life into the piece.

GlennT

[desertrock]

Self taught.

Mark

[Paul.V]

self-learnt

[weseye]

Autodidact

I took a few art classes in college, but what I do is the result of serendipity discovery.

Keep Arting!

Jeff (weseye) Wesley

[Aaron Schroeder]

Being an artist is all about teaching yourself. Whether you go to school or not, the idea is to go to the edge where no one has gone before and to go beyond that. Making Art is a physical, visceral, kinesthetic experience, a one on one experience with the self. You have to master yourself. Submission to the greatest master just won't get you there. School can help alot but in the end all they (we )teach you is that you're on your own. According to science we're all virtually the same dispite our percieved differences. We're all valuable nodes in a vast web of human experience. What I love about the way of art is that it helps me apprectiate and accept people that I would instinctively hate and war with. I'm hardwired for hate and war, if it wasn't for art I might be developing weapons of mass destruction, I'd be a zombie in the destruction machine. One of the thing I learned in art school is that if a person steps up to the art plate and puts it on the line, you support them, even if all you got is tough love, Their art may suck but it's art,we're all on the same side. It's that or it's not. Strong words, yes!! I don't care where you've been, what you've done or not done, what you believe or don't believe, if you're getting handy, you're alright with me. we can find some common ground. That said, it really is much harder to practice than the preach. I'm sure with the right medication, the right brainwashing, I'd type something different. I like artist, educated or not, always have always will. I'm an artist, I can change, if I have to, I guess. Red/green. And with that I hit the submit reply button all the while thinking " Should I ? ".

[evaldart]

Great post Aaron. I am in favor of formal education but the greatest gains available to artists will occur in the territory they have paved for themselves. There ain't no Obie Wan out there to Force you up. Information, lessons, data, even skill is out there to be had by anyone who seeks it, what one seeks and what one does with it all is what makes him unique. Whether you learn it someone elses way and then re-learn it your way or just figure it out for yourself from the beginning - same end result, self taught. Most of the time when I want to learn something new I just go out and buy the machine or supplies and get busy (funny how many extra parts they always put in the box with all those machines). Confidence and vigor cannot be taught. Creativity is that thing that results when problems are conceived and nurtured for the sole purpose of experiencing the suprise of their solution.

[CroftonGraphics]

Ok,
here is a question, I dont think it has been raised in the above posts-

What about people who are trained in architecture, applied design, painting etc......

If they transfer their learning, skills, awareness of aesthetics etc to the 'discipline' of sculpture, does that mean they are self taught sculptors?

I am aware of a few famous architects who sometimes produce sculptures.

I was trained to BA hons in interior design (interior architecture), we werent really taught that much apart from an occaisional crit. We were given a book list with some great books on, I think i was about the only one who read more than 3 on the list, I should have been out partying more.

What was good though was doing the first year course with units from all disciplines and 3 years concentrating on chosen subject and the resources available etc.

Just wondering.

[GlennT]

I believe that I fit your category. My formal education was in architecture, and that was the field in which I was earning a living until my first independant project, a law office design, led to a commission to create a life-size bronze statue and fountain of Justice. I had no training in sculpture nor had I even taken a drawing, painting, or sculpture class in college.

After that life-changing project, the most enjoyable work I had ever done, I decided to get some training as an artist to help me become the best I could be, which led me to an Atelier teaching drawing and painting, but again, not sculpture. This was great training, but technically you could say that I am self-taught in sculpture. All that I have learned in other disciplines has certainly been a great help in understanding and working with 3-dimensional form.

GlennT
http://www.glennterryart.com

[CroftonGraphics]

That is interesting,

I think training architecture and applied design gives a good grounding in balancing construction, aesthetics etc.

Thomas Heatherwick for example, has an MA in furniture design I think, not sculpture-
http://www.heatherwick.com/index.php

His studio seems to cross the disciplines.