Parthenon Marbles

[Araich]

I am working on a sectional bronze sculpture based loosely on the Parthenon marbles (the east and west end figures and horses), and in particular the Elgin marbles housed in London.

But I am struggling to find complete images of the work. If anyone could help I'b be most appreciative.

I need both a full set of images of the elgin marbles as they now sit up one end of the museum, and a reconstructed image/drawing of them as they once stood in Athens.

Thanks.

[Merlion]

Do you mean you would like photographs better than what you would get from doing Google Images searches?

[Arrow]

http://gl.ict.usc.edu/parthenongallery/frieze/index.html

Takes a while to load on dialup :P

You will need a vr plugin to view in browser. I use explorer and it works fine.

http://www.web3d.org/

[Merlion]

Ah hah. If all goes well, I'll be making a brief two-night stop-over visit to Athens in early May after a sightseeing tour to Turkey. I'll sure go to visit the Parthenon and the Acropolis Museum. Now I am reading up a guide book to decide on what else to visit.

[Araich]

Thanks Arrow, it's the pediments that I'm interested in, but the renderings were of great interest.

[sculptor]

R.H.
try searching
parthenon frieze

sorry my scanner quit
but the unuversity's art department library has rather good picture books on the subject too
try your local art dept.?

wow
you doing a figurative bronze
I wanna see pictures of that journey

cool?
rod
sculptor (http://home.mindspring.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=actual&linkpath=http://home.mindspring.com/~mandali/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/lynn.torso.figurative.sculptor.rod.patterson.jpg&target=tlx_new&title=figure%20sculpture%20LYNN%20torso%20in%20the %20clay)

[Araich]

sculptor - I may disappoint you with this project ;)

Here it is so far: http://www.roberthague.com/sculpture/pediments.htm

The left side of the East Pediment will be approximately 18 x 8 foot. I made a break through with the base yesterday (separate rusted cor-ten plinths) which I'll post soon. The center piece is also to be discarded, as I remake it, along with the horses heads...

[Merlion]

As mentioned earlier, I did visit Athens and climbed to see the Parthenon, coming back a week ago.

My picture below is probably not much help to you, but at least it shows I've been there.

About Athens, I find the large collection of sculptures in their National Archaelogical Museum good. As I previously know something about the history of ancient Greek statues, I can well appreciate looking at them. Otherwise a 'layman' may get overwhelmed.

[Landseer]

The stuff is cool, but if you read more details, it seems the parthenon was basically stripped of all carvings long ago, many shipped to the UK, others scattered around.
In the 1600's it was used to store a gunpowder cache, and naturally it was hit by the enemy of the day and that caused a huge explosion that basically destroyed the building. After that it went downhill rapidly with removing of carvings, souvenir hunting, several poor "restorations" and so on.


Replica casts have been put in place and it seems they are restoring the whole site which includes replacing many stones.

I'm not sure you can call that a restoration when they put in brand new replicas and the photos I saw show the stones are so obviously not matched and stand out.

There's a replica of the whole building in Tennessee, complete with a 45 foot tall cast-stone (basically hydrocal) gilded statue of Athena which is detailed on a site about that.

Google "parthenon images" in the images section and all kinds of photos come up.

[Merlion]

it seems they are restoring the whole site which includes replacing many stones. ....

Yes. I notice they are doing that for the building now, see below. It is possible that later they may put up the relief sculptures, bits and pieces of originals, and replicas.

I understand the British Museum is still not willing to return the Elgin Marbles to Greece.

[fritchie]

Araich - I just saw this, and you may have the images you need by now. I had quite a few art books before the New Orleans flood, but all are destroyeed now. Several included theoretical reconstructions of the two pediments. Unfortunately, I can't give you authors or titles, but many were paperbacks and not expensive, so if you can visit or talk to a good bookstore, you should be able to get good material.

[Araich]

1:5 working model.

I think the switch to individual and tall 1250mm (4ft) cor-ten plinths now gives a better sense of the building below and hopefully lifts the work up to eye height and above. Comments?

[anne (bxl)]

Hi robert!
I love the concept. This is a very interresting evolution of your work. Is your european tour the base of your new inspiration?
About the pic as this is inspired by a greek "frise" which was situated quite high so that the view was from down to top I would like to discover your piece from down to top whatever the final size would be. Or not... just an idea...
it's all the question of the pedestal!

[Araich]

Anne, how are you? Yes, this is driven entirely by that trip, but also a greater change that's occurring in my work. Here's a shot looking up somewhat, and a detail (reminiscent of the cloth folds).

[anne (bxl)]

I feel the architectural dimension much stronger from that point of view.
but I don't know if this is what you are looking for...

[Araich]

Time marches on and I now have a site allocated for the exhibition. I've made a little video of it here in low quality (http://www.roberthague.com/file/site_sxs06_1.3.wmv) or medium quality (http://www.roberthague.com/file/site_sxs06_7.5.wmv)

I've never made a video before and would be interested in comment.

Worryingly, the sculpture will need to be hand carried down those extremely steep stairs and I have also seen incredibly large waves there, that throw salt spray right over that wall. A touch of adventure I guess.

[JAZ]

A very intriguing project, Robert. I had no trouble with either version of the video and they give a good idea of the beautiful site. I expected sound with it, but the silence elicits its own sound in my head. Is this a comission or a temporary installation? If it is for a show, how long will it be there in close proximity to the salt water? Will you protect the bronze with anything other than wax?
Your use of visual metaphor is satisfying. This seems a good direction, in reference to the art of the past. Nice going, Robert.
JAZ

[obseq]

Robert, the site is such a perfect match for the sectional.

I have to agree with Anne-- I love the concept and your subsequent execution.

I also noticed you using similar elements from 'Fallen' with the supporting structure which I happened to like very much. http://www.roberthague.com/sculpture/gallery/142.htm

How did you approach the reductive design?

I can't wait to see the final results.

[Araich]

Thanks guys.

JAZ. It's a temporary exhibit for 17 days and I've still to make a test piece so that I can see what the effects of salt spray will be in the short term.

obseq. I hope you wont be disappointed that I've changed the central section. It no longer refers so heavily to Fallen. I felt it needed to be more fluid. No images yet.

My approach so far has been to make sweeping gestural marks instead of detail, and thus quite naturally my reduced, calligraphic style has come out.

But here is where it starts to get weird (see below and link) http://www.roberthague.com/sculpture/pediment_bronze.htm

PS Homer's Iliad is front runner for quotation, but I am still to look at Greek Tragedies.

[obseq]

No disappointment at all!

Even with whatever changes you have in mind, I think you are successful in achieving the overall fluidity you're going after.

Comparing the negative space between 'After Atheena' to that of the original pediments readily provides pretty effortless conduits between the critical points of each.

That said, how do you think you'll change the central section?

[Araich]

I now have the bones of the central figure. I had spent some time thinking this one over as I felt it needed to be a strong and simple piece with bridging qualities. By creating a 'sway' I can carry the eye more naturally along the full length.

Even though I now have back pain and must work 7 days a week through to late Oct to complete, I am feeling really optimistic about the project.

In a few days I will have the first proper shots of the group together.

[obseq]

The revision is great!

I think the moderate twist in the curve, as you pointed out, carries the eye quite well.

I find that tracing the revised curve as a spectator forces an almost exaggerated observational path along that area.

Your original central pediment was effective in carrying the eye, but did so in directly expediting the line-of-sight, specifically, through the supporting structure, while the revised version deviates from that original path, throwing that line upward.

There's also something else I noticed and I think was a very astute change.
You seem to have articulated the spine with the inclusion of another subtle appendage from the base of the second curve, which gently grounds that sweeping upward motion of that central pediment. In my opinion, it ensures continuity towards the following pediment.

Hang in there with that back pain-- I know the feeling. ;)

[Araich]

You've got a good eye! That gusset is a completely new invention - for me. This figure is male, in a largely female group, so I'd wanted to distinguish him. I also intend to have a break in the major curve, just as it reaches the sphere, which will force a mental bridging. To support the hanging curve I plan to bring back my 3 bar support... It's a nice reference to architecture. I tacked up the horses heads today, giving me the first view of the complete group. Click the picture for a big version.

http://www.roberthague.com/sculpture/gallery/images/pp_group_100.jpg (http://www.roberthague.com/sculpture/gallery/images/pp_group_600.jpg)

[tonofelephant]

Robert,

Absolutely love your grouping of sculptures. Love how your sculptures build in volume and complexity from left to right. Also like how the far right hand sculpture pulls you back in from visually flying off into space. There is also a detail that I noticed that I consistantly overlooked in my work til now: The spacing and sizing of the pedestals that sculptures sit on.

Thank you for a feast for the eyes and opening my eyes to another design possibility. Can't wait to see the final installation photos. All the best to you. Hope this leads to more and better work for you.

Carl
www.wsggallery.com

[Araich]

http://www.roberthague.com/file/pediment_install_BH1.wmv

A short video of the installation (around 11MB), with a very serious soundtrack!

No decent photos yet as the weather has been very mixed. This piece has been extremely well received.

[obseq]

That Benny Hill accompanyment had me cracking up.
I loved the slow-motion touches, too. :D

Onto the pediments-- It looks as wonderful as I envisioned.
Did you ever determine what sort of effects the salt water will have on it?

Congratulations on a beautifully executed idea!

[Araich]

Jason, the salt water had almost no effect (pictured, 3 weeks on site). Even thought it was so salty there, that after a single day you could see the crystals hanging off the stainless steel rods.

The most I could say about it is that it created a dull white film on the bronze. In the long run I think that it would have turned the patina a pastel blue-green.

-

I've recently made the decision to expand the work to 40 foot long and the bones of the final grouping (pictured, 1:5 maquette) give a fair indication of where I'm going.

Thoughts?

To complete this work I will have to rob material from every other sculpture I make for the next year or more. I fear that it has the capacity to sink me.

[GlennT]

Couldn't you do the world a favor and just rob some material from Frank Gehry's buildings instead?

[jOe~]

I can't imagine that you won't be amply rewarded for your efforts someday. Hopefully that will be before you resort to stealing the siding off Gehry's buildings. I applaud your courage and the stunning work.

jOe~

[obseq]

The second pediment from the right provides a very well-executed beat along with the inclusion of the single support to its right.

I found that after several viewings of your pediments that the supports themselves actually provide a rather significant undercurrent of additional pacing. I wouldn't even mind seeing this augmented, perhaps through slightly widening the supports along with the spaces between the pediments.

That may or may not work. I'd venture to guess that the above suggestion/inclination is more the result of how the entire work actually carries my own eye in and around the piece.

[sculptorsam]

Robert, good to see a hint of where you're headed with the other side. I see that it's not complete, but one thing I notice is a lack of continuity on the right which is very present on the left. By that I mean one piece flowing naturally into the next which builds a relationship between the pieces and creates a whole. Especially present in the 3rd and 4th elements from the left, but I feel it throughout that side moreso than the new pieces.

I think the project is ambitious as all hell and has great potential. In short, it's the best kind. Good luck.

[Araich]

Thanks Joe.

Jason I think that you are right about a greater spacing. Somehow, on the maquette, I bunch them up. I am also conflicted about the width of the boxes, and so far have scaled them down to their smallest practical size. A rather pragmatic solution, which may not work so well with the new pieces.

Sam, here I am kinda screwed. I have already let go the notion of working directly from the marbles, as the right side is much more fragmented and also lesser. The three figures once known as the 'Three Fates' offer much less material for me and though beautiful, are repetitious.

I think that I have completely failed with the 8th piece from the left. It closes the flow off entirely, and your critique confirms this. The 9th is temporary and much smaller than what I'm planning. It may well pull the work back together.

I have a kinda crazy idea of leaving 11 empty. Such extravagance appeals to me, and is in keeping with the Parthenon (thought to be one of the most expensive buildings ever made).

The hubris of empire, an unnecessary war, and the collapse of a civilisation set the tone, and this offers an opportunity to expand on the text. Either I continue with The Trojan Women accross the right side, or I begin the search for a complimentary text. My gut feeling is that there is room for a second text...

My best guess is that there will now total more than 7000 hand puched letters. How's that for a depressing thought.

For anyone not already bored out of their brains by this, I have just put my updated project movie here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-Clu-fZbOk

I appreciate the feedback. The studio is a lonely place at present.

[obseq]

Robert,

Do you have an image of the original pediments you can post?
It would be great to refer to this in the thread. :D


"I have a kinda crazy idea of leaving 11 empty. Such extravagance appeals to me, and is in keeping with the Parthenon (thought to be one of the most expensive buildings ever made)."

I really like this idea. An undertaking like this would also serve to put the tenth pediment from the left into more precise context.

[sculptorsam]

Though it's hard to judge from the one image, I think the 8th might work if you flip/mirror reverse it so it points to the right instead of the left. It's a complex, dense form that might work nicely with some re-orientation.

This is the sort of thinking best done standing around the studio with a beverage. I really should just stop by...

[Araich]

You know, I have found it impossible to find a good frontal complete shot of the right side (east ped). The left is everywhere. In the first attached image the tallest figure is incorrect and is now part of the west pediment. As you can immediately see there is considerably less content. But I intend to ignore this now and just work towards a good total work.

Sam, great minds, I have reversed that piece many times, but not with it's tall neighbour in place. Guess what I'll do when I get to work.

The solution with that piece (8) may be chopping out some of it to replace with stainless. At present it seems too heavy. I really get a kick from the notion of ruin, and repair by modern material (316 stainless).

If anyone is in London and willing to take some pictures for me...

[obseq]

Just a quick paste job to see a corresponding comparison:

[Araich]

I've re-shot the group with the rotated piece (also elevated as the scale is out) and some plinth changes. All positive changes I think.

Jason, that is weird seeing them like that, but also interesting.

I have another idea for the empty plinth; a flat square bronze plate to sit on top, kinda marking where the missing piece would be, it could even have text on it. It would be doubly nuts to make a base plate and engineer it's fittings and still have no sculpture there.

[obseq]

I had a bit of the same thought looking at the comparisons--
Somewhat in the same spirit as the plating you have in the first pediment.
Certainly not utilitarian, but still placing a critical emphasis on the role of each plinth.

Great idea, Robert.

Also, looking at the comparisons, what do you make of the original piece that corresponds to your seventh pediment? Those original supports are an interesting point of consideration.

edit*(The rotated pediment works well-- I think the continuity is stronger)


I have another idea for the empty plinth; a flat square bronze plate to sit on top, kinda marking where the missing piece would be, it could even have text on it. It would be doubly nuts to make a base plate and engineer it's fittings and still have no sculpture there.

[Araich]

Well, here's the rub. I've ignored the corresponding marble (in the composition you've made) for the 7th piece as it was wrongly attributed to the east pediment. So what you see is my wild artistic license in stretching out the 3 female figures. It came as a surpise to me to see the stride of that piece match up so well.

8-10 are carved from a single block of marble, and I started with an irregular box cut in 2 (side on you see they are the 'same piece') pulled apart. Reversing 8 has temporarily destroyed this.

At this early stage I am not too worried about the detail there, as much will be resolved in the scaling up. And as with the left side (pieces 1-6) I will go back and remake the models.

What I'm chasing is the sense of movement and the implied (missing) arms and expressions. But unexpectedly, since deciding to expand the work, I've come up against the unified success of the sculpture.

I can highly recommend making a series or sectional work. It has taught me much about the language of sculpture I may have otherwise missed.

[obseq]

I think both 10 and 11 explicitly execute the beats and miscues of the missing limbs seen in the original pediments. It may, however, prove more difficult trying to replicate that aesthetic in the same manner without overusing the device of the solitary plinth.

Perhaps as discussed a bit earlier in the thread, reworking the width of certain plinths beyond their practical use can be a solution-- Allowing plinths to occupy a bit missing/dead space between pediment figures could act as a sort of visual drone that aids in secondary movement.

Well, here's the rub. I've ignored the corresponding marble (in the composition you've made) for the 7th piece as it was wrongly attributed to the east pediment. So what you see is my wild artistic license in stretching out the 3 female figures. It came as a surpise to me to see the stride of that piece match up so well.

8-10 are carved from a single block of marble, and I started with an irregular box cut in 2 (side on you see they are the 'same piece') pulled apart. Reversing 8 has temporarily destroyed this.

At this early stage I am not too worried about the detail there, as much will be resolved in the scaling up. And as with the left side (pieces 1-6) I will go back and remake the models.

What I'm chasing is the sense of movement and the implied (missing) arms and expressions. But unexpectedly, since deciding to expand the work, I've come up against the unified success of the sculpture.

I can highly recommend making a series or sectional work. It has taught me much about the language of sculpture I may have otherwise missed.

[Araich]

Well, several commissions and some other projects later, I am back at this monster!

[Araich]

Text:

"How are you blind,
You treaders down of cities, you that cast
Temples to desolation, and lay waste
Tombs, the untrodden sanctuaries where lie
The ancient dead; yourselves so soon to die!"

Euripides 415 BC

[ironman]

Hi Araich, How have I missed this thread? I thought you were in this big depressing funk and here you've been working your Aussie ass off on some great stuff!
I haven't had a chance to really assimilate the whole thing yet but I think the work looks great.
Have a great day,
Jeff

[GlennT]

I think that horse head is pretty dang cool! :cool: Some of the others are summarized a bit too much for me, but that one is perfect! ( Are those 5 @ 90 degree bends just showing off? They somehow give the piece even more integrity) The entire project is a valuable lesson and experience. It would be fun to see it worked from the other perspective...whatever would be considered the finest abstract composition out there turned into a completely representational sculpture.

[Araich]

... I thought you were in this big depressing funk...

I have been incredibly angry at work, it is true. And it has expressed itself in many odd ways in my work. It did take hold of the plate work above, where I originally had a bronze hand gun welded down - good sense eventually took hold and I went for the mash hammer, a symbol of both creation and destruction, and a nice reflection on the damage done to the marbles by various fanatics. I like that it is at odds with the rules of the work. It's main function is to slow the viewer down and force a questioning of the conceptual content in the work.

Thanks Glenn, the scroll was one of those fleeting ideas that stuck. Sweetly, it only comes into view when you are right over the piece. BTW that sharpened edge is as sharp as a blade. Another effect of being pissed off I guess - but more over, a further reference to war (chariot horses).

[StevenW]

My old boss and mentor used to say; Go ahead and get mad all you want, it makes you work harder.
I can see the same effect here clearly.

Outstanding work.

Steven

[evaldart]

Glenns right. Whether I read these compositions as abstract or represntational they are equally satisfying. Of course the masterful finishing doesn't hurt. Plenty of motion, plenty of edge, but not threatening. Great work!

[Araich]

Aphrodite.

[Araich]

One of the more modest pieces in the group... The cut and dislocation of the corner is a reference to the cracks and repairs in the marble.

[Araich]

It is both a bitter and a sweet thing, as pictured here is the final piece near completion.

http://www.roberthague.com/sculpture/gallery/images/7a_500.jpg

Given time, I could see that forcing the work into a symmetrical double was to deny a beauty in the irregular nature of the British Museum grouping. Hence the largest central maquette (right) is no more.

Nonetheless this project has been personally vast and fraught, and I am sad to see it drawing to a close.

By next week it will be all over.

[obseq]

I was just wondering about this monumental endeavor of yours, and can't wait to see the end-result posted!

Your commitment to pursuing thoughtful abstractions of the Elgin Marbles is both highly impressive and commendable. Revisiting this thread over the last several months has always proved effective in providing a motivating kick in the pants.

[Araich]

Day of install...

[Araich]

Day of install...

[Bentiron]

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading all of the posts associated with this project of Robert's. It is a stunning work. Thank you.