Need immediate help with project please

[thestudent]

Hello, I am a student. In my class we are making a theoretical rectangular relief sculpture that will hang vertically on the side of a building. I chose copper as my material. The size is 28' 10" x 11' by about 4" wide. Can anyone give me an estimate on how much this material will cost?

I could go with bronze if you know the price of bronze instead. This project is due tomorrow morning. If anyone could help that would be great. Thanks!

PS, also if you know how to mount it that would help me big time also. (the building is concrete)

[Landseer]

I chose copper as my material. The size is 28' 10" x 11' by about 4" wide. Can anyone give me an estimate on how much this material will cost?
Copper is not cheap in any form! I can't visualize what you are making exactly, but I gather it's going to be about 300 square feet of material but you say 4" WIDE I assume you mean the relief is 4" DEEP and further assume you want sheet metal- not foil or plate.

So if it's sheet metal to be formed, hammered, whatever, and to be solid surface on the whole 300 square feet- I am guessing you would need about
9 sheets 4'x8' in size

Some price ideas, brass sheet, brass would be cheaper than broze if you can even find bronze sheets, I didnt see copper at this place I have bought from before but do the math and see that 300 square feet of copper will be VERY expensive!!:

.032 thick Alloy 260 Brass Sheet 2 X 4 Ft.
$119.20

[thestudent]

Thanks for the help, I appreciate it.

I went to class and the professor just yelled at us for 60 minutes and then dismissed us, so I have a little more time. I will post a picture of what I am working on and maybe you guys can answer some questions if you feel like it. I don't think it's too complicated but I have no idea what I am doing. I am totally green when it comes to sculpture. Again thanks for the reply.

[fused]

[...]a theoretical rectangular relief sculpture that will hang vertically on the side of a building[...]

Not enough information.

[Merlion]

There were some discussions on something that looks like similar to your academic project. Look under the same Forum 'Community Help Center', in the thread called 'Bronze plate'. Hope it helps.

[sculptor]

?
as/re your measurements
if you meant one solid piece of copper
29ft x 11 ft x 4''
that’s near 10,000lbs and would cost over $25,000 just for the copper
then you'll need a fab shop to make the solid plate
then shipping
then crane rental and construction helpers
then a structural engineer to ok the fasteners and buildings ability to hold that load
you're probably coming into the $100,000.00 neighborhood

you need to think this through and delineate the details a tad more conscientiously

[Landseer]

Whew, and I thought the sheet metal for 2'x4' piece @ $119 was expensive!!
I am guessing the fellow probably had in mind sheet copper than plate, but either one is not cheap and I don't see either being practical for a student project for school.

[sculptor]

...I am guessing the fellow probably had in mind sheet copper than plate, ....

yeh
that would be my guess too
'tain't what thestudent wrote though

Especially for students, I fall back on my early training:
when studying design under bucky fuller--critical thinking was taught by the instructors not assuming the missing pieces in a design--and looking for these shortcomings and following through on them in the least favorable way. We learned the hard way to make detailed comprehensive designs, and thorough step by step instructions. The training has served me well, so I share it freely.

rod

[F.C. White]

Never...I repeat, NEVER, ask for help the day before something is due. That's about as lame as anyone can get. They taught you in grade school to do your home work. No instructor, teacher, whatever, will give you an assignment, as such, the day before it's due. You goofed off, admit it... blew your time frame and were given a bit of grace by your professor to shove something through for credit. I got no sympathy for you, dude. You're either a man of your convictions and word or you're limp'n through life get'n what you can for nuth'n....

You want honest help and insight from others, then show some commitment on your own worthy of support.

[Jay Long]

I would have to say that even a well seasoned artist could not pull this off in one day, even if you had the material laying on the ground in front of you. from the size of this piece you would have splice this material together, by welding , riveting, or some other method, you would need to bend this material, anyway from the size of your description, you would need a boom truck to pick it up and hang it on the wall of a building. NOT ENOUGH TIME, good luck.....Jay

[EJB]

I wasn't going to reply to this post because it was obviously submited by somebody without a clue and in fact probably a bit lazy. As I understand the original post, this is just a theoretical project? If so, the lesson I gather is to create a plan on how one would go about doing this. I'll ponder this and see what I can come up with. Meanwhile, could someone here tell me in detail the proper way to make a sculpture that everyone will love and revere forever? I have a big comission next month and I'm a little hard pressed. If you could send blueprints, that would be even more helpful thanks!

[Landseer]

I wasn't going to reply to this post because it was obviously submited by somebody without a clue and in fact probably a bit lazy. As I understand the original post, this is just a theoretical project? If so, the lesson I gather is to create a plan on how one would go about doing this.
Yes, theoretical sculpture, I wondered about that term, assuming the chap isn't a troll or playing a joke I guess we'll hear more details.

I have a big comission next month and I'm a little hard pressed. If you could send blueprints, that would be even more helpful thanks!Here's a cashier's check for $10,000 will that help in lieu of the blueprints? I'll need $6,000 of that back in cash sent Western Union ;)

[Blake]

"Meanwhile, could someone here tell me in detail the proper way to make a sculpture that everyone will love and revere forever?"

Yes, spend thirty years creating it over and over again and then you might fine that you have created something that some people will love, but if you want to be revered as an artist I think that you need to die first. :rolleyes:

[thestudent]

Thanks for the responses so far.

The piece is for a hotel which is under construction in Orlando. A representative for the hotel came to our school to ask the students to design a rectangular piece of art that would be placed in front of the building. Although this piece could very well be chosen, made and mounted, I am not too concerned about budget or cost. I have decided against copper because the copper paint looks too bright on my model that I made. I am thinking bronze would be a better choice. It would be cool if the piece could be made of steel or something like that and plated with bronze, as long as it's 'built to last'. Also, I have no idea how sculptures are made. I am a digital media major, this class is a prerequisite. I have lots of respect for sculptures and fine art but I am very new to the subject.

I have linked photos of my model and a sketch of my design to help communicate what I need, which is a budget, and a way to mount the piece to the hotel. I am supposed to call around and talk to metalworkers and engineers to get this info but I do not feel comfortable talking to people about something that will probably never get made. I don't like wasting people's time. Also the engineering department at my school is of no help. If I get help on this forum, it is volunteered help and I am grateful for whatever I receive here.

The piece has four "levels". Each level sticks out 1/2". Hopefully you can see from the photos what I mean. The budget estimate doesn't need to be exact!

So basically here are my questions:

-Should the base be made out of steel or some other metal and plated with bronze? If so how would I figure out how to do that and estimate how much it costs?

-How would I find out how to mount it on the hotel?

The design is supposed to be jazz related. I am happy with my design, but I realize it's not professional. So please don't flame my work. :)

http://www.wesmart.com/images/bronze.jpg

http://www.wesmart.com/images/bronze2.jpg

http://www.wesmart.com/images/sax-mono.gif

http://www.wesmart.com/images/hotel.jpg

Sorry for the long post, and thanks for reading.

[Jay Long]

Hey! I like your design, it looks just fine, kinda modern, this isn't my area of expertise, I would say that bronze is a very expensive material, but I would rather use real bronze than painted steel for a outdoor project. However, there are paints that will last a liftime, I just don't know enough about paints to recommend one...............Jay

[Landseer]

there are paints that will last a liftime, I just don't know enough about paints to recommend one...............JayWith the way new buildings go up and then are demolished before they are 20-30 years old, I would say the sculpture would outlast the building even if painted steel. Hotels come and go all the time, they must be about the most temporary buildings in the country no kidding!

[BMBourgoyne]

go to www.atlasmetal.com and look at the info for the sheet/plate silicon bronze

find the thickness you want, multiply the square footage needed x lbs/foot, and that'll be your overall weight in material

I think bronze ingot (for casting) is around $3.50/pound (anyone correct me if I'm way off-- its been a long while since I've done any casting), and if memory serves me, plate and the like can run about twice that

double material costs and add 10 - 20% is an old builder's rule of thumb for job estimates

of course, in the real world there's travel, transport, installation, foundations/support structures, permits, insurance, etc. to consider (which can all be substantial with big projects), but those numbers should be close enough to get a hypothetical solution for the hypothetical project

cheers

[settecento]

Hi all!

Please permit me to divert from the subject you were discussing ,but recently I have been requested from a local committee to submit a design or maquette proposal for a monument which is going to be erected in my town were last year 5 youths all under 18 years of age were killed instantly by a traffic accident. I know it is a sad story but more than that it is so very difficult to design something in relation to commemorate these energetic 5 youths.
Please i appreciate if somebody can sprinkle an idea or something related that can help me to flourish the design. The commemorative monument is intended to be erected in a place where it can be viewed from all round.

Thanks beforehand.
SC

[thestudent]

settecento, you should start a new thread because there is more of a chance that way of people seeing your question. Also it makes the forum less confusing when threads are concerning only one main topic. About your design, I would start by doing a google image search for memorials. There have been thousands of artists designing memorials since recorded history, try to borrow some elements from some of your favorite designs and put something together. After you have an initial rough design, then you should start a thread here with the sketch of the design and then people will have something to work with. Good luck on the project, as we have learned from history, memorials can often be controversial with the victims' families.

Thanks guys, it really is cool that you guys have helped me with this, I now have enough info to give a decent estimate, for school at least). I have some more questions if anyone would be interested in answering them-- With the way my design is (layered flat planes of bronze) do you think I should get a solid sheet of bronze and have the design chiseled down into the sheet, or should I get several thin sheets and have them cut out and then layered on top of one another?

Would it be possible to use a steel sheet (assuming steel is cheaper) for the bottom layer with a thin sheet of bronze covering the steel? How thick should the bottom layer be to make sure the piece is rigid? Thanks again.

[warren01]

Since looking at your drawings there are several ways to choose. But you have to decide how you want it to look. If you made the piece with different layers there would be cracks between the layers. No matter what the material those cracks would cause difficulty by gathering dirt and moisture therefore causing corrosion of some kind, especially with steel. Well maybe you could paint both sides and bolt together.
As far as the size copper or bronze you would have to make in sections. Using patinas you can make the copper look like bronze. The copper is easier to work, little harder to weld but much cheaper than bronze.
If you made the layers by hammering you would not have the cracks. To hammer in the detail would really not be that difficult if you made it in sections then weld the sections together.
There is also the possibility of making from sheet aluminum. It could be laser cut then layered and there is a powder metal coatings mixed with epoxys that could give you the bronze look. So many choices.
Mounting to the building would actually be the easy part, just depends on what material you use because of the weight. Just thinking out loud.
warren

[thestudent]

There is also the possibility of making from sheet aluminum. It could be laser cut then layered and there is a powder metal coatings mixed with epoxys that could give you the bronze look. So many choices.
Mounting to the building would actually be the easy part, just depends on what material you use because of the weight. Just thinking out loud.
warren

That sounds like what I need. Do you know anyone I could contact or any website with info on the cost of the aluminum sheets and the powder metal epoxy? Do you think I could add color to the epoxy to make darker and lighter shades of bronze?

[EJB]

Details do make a difference. Here are a few more thoughts...steel is cheap and easy at the outset but I would say that steel should be your last choice for a project like this. As an architechtural element, this is not something you want to be taking down and refinishing every few years, not to mention the rust stains running down the front of the building. Forget the coatings. By time you find the right one you will have spent more in trial and error and time than if you would have made the thing out of solid stainless steel. Bronze and copper are much more durable and will last with a nice patina over time but again the green streak running down the building will eventually be a problem. You can coat these with a fairly long life span but re-coating is inevitable. Longevity is big issue for outdoor sculpture. Many folks here have wrestled for years with the ongoing battle against the elements. For that reason, many have gone to stainless steel or aluminum for many outdoor projects. Once you amortize the touch up and maintenance costs, the more expensive material is a bargain. Stainless can be left natural or treated for coloration. Aluminum can be anodized in a variety of colors including bronze and coppper tints.
Another thing to consider is the size of available materials. Your project is larger than readily available single sheet sizes. To do it in one seemless piece would require a special order and likely in a coil. Large fabricators can uncoil it for you but it adds to the handling($). If you created your design in pieces, be aware that you will be using more 'sheets' to cut out your parts and there will be a fair amount of scrap($$). Your total square footage of raw material can easily double. Layering the pieces in a puzzle like configuration would probably be most cost effective. Since your relief is only 1/2" deep you could conceivably use 1/4" sheet material and allow for a 1/4" caulking gap between panels. The pieces would need to hang by a cleat or pin to attach to the building. This is something that should be designed in with the help of a structural engineer ($$$).
Another thought about potential materials....many architectural elements these days are made of foam and then hard surfaced with any number of treatments from cement to sprayed metal. Ceramic or even glass can be assembled from similarly layered elements and can have a very dramatic appearance.
Getting back to metal...I would venture to guess that this could be sand cast in a few sections using aluminum.

Good Luck ($$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$)