NEW Question RE: Calculating Fee URGENT!!!

[apprentice]

Here's the skinny.

I've been selected by a "designer" to work on a gargantuan bronze project that another sculptor bid on. The amount of money for the project has already been awarded to the designer based on the original sculptor's bid. She asked me to go out and obtain estimates from different foundries, which I did, based on measurements and no design. My estimates were WAY over the amount awarded. To get the job, I have to squeeze numbers to bare bone minimum estimates, again, without even having a design to show anybody. If the estimates are low ball, the designer is trying to stipulate that those costs would come out of my fee.

Here's the problem.

She's trying to dictate who gets what. She is commanding a 25% "designer" fee and a 10% finder's fee for another person. Fine. But this amount is coming from the overall budget and significantly reducing the amount we have to get the job done. Its seems more logical to me, to first deduct materials and foundry costs from the overall budget. Anything left is the net profit and should be divided accordingly. So question one: Should her 25% be calculated before or after deducting material/foundry costs? Question two: Should I protect myself and demand a certain percentage too?

Also, she is trying to stipulate that any "sculptor's fees" are not to exceed a certain amount...which ends up being less than the "finder's fee" after taxes, while simultaneously padding a contingecy fee in case we're over budget, and an office fee for herself for paperwork on top of her $60k. Remember she's already wanting unforseen costs to come from my "fee", and dictating that my "fee" isn't to exceed "x" amount of dollars, and that if we're under budget, she gets to collect that as well.

Knowing that I'm already getting screwed, my fear is that the costs are going to go over budget and I wouldn't make a penny on the project.

My dilemma: She is also the "gatekeeper" to several other future bronze sculpture jobs that are not subject to a finder's fee, and subject to a budget that I set forth.

Any suggestions, advice, guidance, or opinions on whether or not I should do this particular job or run far away would be appreciated.

[G. Murdoch]

How come the designer hasn't provided you with a design? If she is the person who determines the composition of the piece, and you have to render her vision, then you are playing the role of her "tool". I would not accept work where I didn't come up with the composition for the sculpture myself. I never accept commission offers to carve busts etc, where the patron expects (rightly so) that the finished product will be a likeness of whomever they are honoring. Rendering someone else's vision is a technical exercise with great potential as an opportunity to hone ones craftsmanship, but then why not just work in a factory?

From what you have written, the dilemna seems to be choosing to work for a selfish, greedy person with little chance of decent money for you, versus the belief that the successful completion of this project will provide opportunities for better future work. 6-7 years ago I probably would have jumped at the opportunity. Today I would say NO WAY!! Ultimately the decision is yours.

Good luck,

Graham

[fused]

How does a foundry give you an accurate bid without a project design? They don't. It's padded to account for overruns and unknowns and is therefore a high bid, which they will gladly accept your monies to accomplish. It's no skin off their backs, their skilled labor, materials and everything else is covered.

You mention future bronze projects being dangled in front of you. Forget that BS and don't chew on that bait unless you have a contract stating clearly that they are yours. Regardless of the outcome of this "un-seen-design and full of curious costs" project there are no guarantees that any of aforementioned future work will come your way.

IF you are still in negotiations with "the 25% designer" I suggest you determine what it is you require from this project
and if it is not there, walk away now.

The 10% finders fee is reasonable, the 25% design fee is not. If she wants more money, she needs to take on more responsibility for the execution of the work. I'm scratching my head and wondering why you are even needed in this equation. If she is the paid designer, what is your part again? If you are simply the project manager (or skilled laborer), figure out your fee and pay schedule before you agree to do any work and if this is more money than you make in an average month you need A LEGAL CONTRACT.

Where I live designer/artist fees are 15% off the top and I believe that you are absolutely correct in thinking that the actual cost of creating this work (insurance, foundry, fabrication, finishing,transportation, installation and ALL labor) needs to be a larger consideration in the distribution of budgeted funds to all who will be affected by this job.

I read your post and see red flags waving everywhere this $240,000 budget??? lurks and hear a robotic monotone saying, "DANGER! DANGER! DANGER!"

[Arrow]

Whatever you do, don't move forward without a written and signed contract.

[Landseer]

I'd have to say in briefly scanning this, I agree with what the other said, this who things sound very up in the air and to try to get an estimate on a bronze without a drawing or whatever is insane, how the heck is a foundry supposed to estimate on this to any accuracy? it could turn out some minor issues in the design could wind up totally skewing that foundry estiamte considerably due to a lot of extra labor.
The woman is getting 25% designer fee, and there's a 10% finder's fee also? that's 35% chunk out of the budget before anything even gets done and that seems way excessive, especially when you now add in the sculptor who by all rights should be getting more than that.

If the estimates are low ball, the designer is trying to stipulate that those costs would come out of my fee. Why of course she is- better for her it comes out of YOUR pocket than hers right? sounds like she has a real sweetheart deal!

She is also the "gatekeeper" to several other future bronze sculpture jobs that are not subject to a finder's fee, and subject to a budget that I set forth. Yeah, very pie-in-the-sky if you ask me, enticement to get you sucked in likely at a loss and then it's "thanks, you take care now!" those are a dime a dozen without a written contract for future work guaranteed.

A 10% finder's fee is reasonable? $25,000 ??? what exactly was involved in "finding" that merits payment of $25,000?

[fused]

There is usually no finder's fee/designer's fee combo and then a commission. You pay a 10% finders fee to the person who passes on the connection to you, only after it leads to a commission of your design.

You take a 15% artist fee off the top leaving 75% of the budget to do everything that is required to execute the design to completion. IF you do all the work yourself then you will receive additional payment in exchange for your labors.

Many artists pay others to build their designs and make a 15% artist fee calculated from the total cost of the commission. Paying others to do the actual work always drives up the price of the project because foundries and fabricators are expensive, and you get less bang for your buck$.

[apprentice]

Thank you all for replying. Its much appreciated....really.

Your similar responses match my gut feeling ever since the proposed budget came out on Friday. My inexperience was leaving me confused and with the highest level of anxiety on what to do. Other variables have come into play since your responses to make my decision easier...and I have thus decided to respectfully decline the job.

So you're all clear on the matter; There is an "organization" that sent out requests for proposals on several sculpture projects to be bronzed. In order to get any of the jobs, the artwork has to be "designed" by a member of the org. However, the actual artwork can be fabricated by anyone outside of the org. In this case, the "designer" was introduced to the original sculptor (who also owns his own foundry) by a third party, i.e. the "finder". Hence me working with the original sculptor's budget and not my own. I have no way of knowing how the original budget was written, though I suspect the "designer" fixed my budget to benefit them most.

Moreover, this is where the "designer" assumed the role of "director" or broker even...and began dictating who got what...even though they actually submitted NO DESIGN. They then had the audacity to tack on an additional $1,200 for office fees/paperwork and $7,000 in case we went over estimate. But simultaneously stipulating sculptor fees NOT TO EXCEED "x" amount of dollars, and that "x" amount of dollars could decrease if actual costs increase. Meanwhile, I'm trying to say its not up to them outside of the respected percentages, and that percentages shouldn't be calculated until material/foundry costs are deducted first.

Anyway, again, you guys have cushioned my fall.

Many, many thanks.