Longevity of Light colored patinas for Outdoor works

[rickb]

Does anyone have experience, or seen large outdoor works successfully finished with the lighter colored opaque patinas something like this:
http://www.richardbecker.com/slide0027_image011.jpg
(the image is just for the patina, not the piece)

I believe MacDonald's works (Flair Atlanta and the 100th USOpen golf monument) outdoors in similar (bismuth, titanium dioxide, ferric?) patinas for 5-10 years, but I am curious how they wear or if anyone has tips. I've also heard good and bad things about incralac as a sealer.

Any help would be appreciated.

thanks,

[Araich]

I think that it largely comes down to the sealant (binding the patina). I too have heard conflicting things about Incralac, but I think you would have to use an acrylic of some sort.

I have also read that fake patinas (paints) in the light colour range are far more reliable in the long run. Comes down to how you feel about that I guess.

[JAZ]

Hi Rick,

Last week we were in Colorado and went to the Benson Sculpture Park in Loveland. There is a beautiful, smaller than life-sized figure that has a light patina. It's called "Rice Ritual" by Carla Knight. I don't know the date of the piece, but the park has been there since 1985 and all of the pieces were purchased for the city by the Loveland High Plains Arts Council. You could try e-mailing them your question at lhpac@sculptureinthepark.org.

The park has 100 permanent sculptures, all bought by the arts council. It's quite a special thing that they have done. The sculptures run the gamut from abstraction to realism. Perhaps they will be able to help you with the maintenance question.

Both of these photos are by Egils Zarins.

JAZ

[rickb]

RH and Jaz,
Thanks for the info.

RH, Regarding paints, do you know what kind of prep is required over bonze? I've toyed with doing some wild painting (from oils to metallics) on small pieces just messing around. I would like to try this on some real art. Any idea what kind of paints you'd use? Even for indoor pieces.

Jaz, I like it -- that work's patina looks like a light grey-green on this monitor. Am I reading the color correctly? If not, how would you describe the color?

Thank you,

[Araich]

I think modern acrylic artists paints for canvas are the best (thin), applied over a sandblasted surface, then a clear acrylic sealant and a wax. But I have only read about this.
Historically, oils with varnish over top were common.
When you think of titanium oxide etc, they are just opaque 'paints' held together with nitrates and wax.
Acrylic paints go through a chemical change (Fritchie?) as they dry, which binds the pigments together. I guess vaguely similar to some patinating chemicals.

My intention is to experiment with some paint washes over more traditional patinas.

[nep75]

Call Ron Young (or his wife Debbie - who's more likely to answer the phone). He's a guru on patinas. In fact they have a whole line - www.sculptnouveau.com - if I'm spelling it right. Or Google it. He's been doing patinas for ever and designs his stuff for metal.

I've heard, especially for outdoors, that Permalac is one of the best sealers. It was designed to protect metal. It soaks through the patinas to bind to the metal. So far it's been proven to last up to 10 years outside and has all that good UV protection. They even just came out with a flat finish!

I hope this doesn't sound like I'm selling, it's just what I know and am trying to help.

I've seen a nice ferric with a titanium oxide and bismoth (sp?) that was sealed with the Permalac. Looked great. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought acrylic didn't do well in the sunlight, UV and whatnot? I've also heard about the oil paints and varnish, but it was mentioned years ago and I can't remember what exactly the formula was.

I do know that reds and blues don't fair well outside - as the norm. There might be some somewhere that people have come up with.

Ok, now I'm just rambling..... Two more hours of work then a 3 day weekend. Yay!!

~ N

[fritchie]

Replying to several people --

I painted a tall, narrow, more or less free-form bronze column with white exterior acrylic housepaint about a dozen years ago, and it still looks like it was done yesterday, but it's been indoors most of that time. Something rushed to (in)completion for a show, where the bottom third had to be completed in polymer. It stood outside the gallery for about a month that way, with no change. I had intended it to be in a standard patina, but the intricate surface didn't show well until I lightened it.

Araich - I hadn’t heard about this property of acrylic, but it does have excellent binding properties, and unless the underlying metal gains access to moisture and begins corroding, it should be OK. (But that’s actually the question, no?)

I note that nep75 works in Arizona. We had quit a ranging discussion here several years ago about the protective and lasting qualities of Permalac and Incralac, and as I recall the conclusion, they might work well in dry climates, but not in wet ones. I made a reference to Incralac roughly a week ago, but couldn’t remember the second name, Permalac. I would not use either unless the permanent location was known.

[JAZ]

I note that nep75 works in Arizona. We had quit a ranging discussion here several years ago about the protective and lasting qualities of Permalac and Incralac, and as I recall the conclusion, they might work well in dry climates, but not in wet ones. I made a reference to Incralac roughly a week ago, but couldn’t remember the second name, Permalac. I would not use either unless the permanent location was known.
Interesting. I have a bronze piece in a show in Florida right now that is coated with Permalac. We'll see how it holds up to a year in that not-so-dry climate.
I used that because it was supposed to be the best and Benbow Bullock gave me a good recommendation about Permalac. It will be a good test.
JAZ

[JAZ]

Rick,
The Rice Ritual sculpture did look like very, very light grey-green. I thought that little sculpture was beautiful.
Ron Young developed a white patina for George Segal for outdoor use. Grounds for Sculpture could probably give yousome clues about that, or Ron Young. I went to one of his workshops a couple of years ago in NYC and he really has quite a range of colorants.
JAZ

[rickb]

Thanks for all the great info.

Fritchie: was this a water-based house paint? And your point about corrosion between the layers is indeed a big question. Should one oxidize the bronze first with something, then paint?

I was told Dali' rubbed his bronzes with garlic, let them sit 6mos or a year before painting with oils. I'm not sure how much of this is fiction, showmanship or science.

... Ron Young developed a white patina for George Segal for outdoor use. Grounds for Sculpture could probably give yousome clues about that, or Ron Young. I went to one of his workshops a couple of years ago in NYC and he really has quite a range of colorants.
JAZ

Jaz, Good advice about calling Ron Young.

[ironman]

Hi, I painted a steel sculpture with grey automobile primer and then used artists acrylic paint on top.
It's been outside for years and the paint job looks as fresh as the day I did it. No fading at all.
Have a great day,
Jeff

[fritchie]

Fritchie: was this a water-based house paint? And your point about corrosion between the layers is indeed a big question. Should one oxidize the bronze first with something, then paint?

I cleaned off the casting scale (the typical black color) in my usual way, by soaking several hours to overnight, first in extremely dilute hydrochloric acid, and then successively water, very dilute ammonia, and more water. That commonly produces a bright, silicon-bronze gold to copper color, and that's probably where I started. I probably had to brush a bit (with stiff bristle) in crevices to remove residual scale at some point. Then I just dried the piece and used smallish bristle brushes to add the diluted housepaint. I would not oxidize the surface first. (That would be akin to my leaving the original firescale, or more accurately substituting a copper oxide layer for the mixed sulfide - oxide casting layer.) I think the oxide layer would be less stable than the pure alloy.

And, yes, it was water-based. My guess is that it would be stable out of doors, but of course, you need more or less a guarantee for your work.

[nep75]

I haven't heard about the Permalac in wet climates. I'm curious to see how it does in Florida. You'll have to keep us updated on that. I think they've changed the formula a bit a couple yeas ago. But don't know for sure. How did you like Ron's class? Just curious.

~ N