Time for a new computer

[Stevem]

Well I have run out of space on my computer and it is so old it's really time to upgrade. I have been shopping different sources and asking different peoples opinion of what I should get and keep coming up with different answers. So I thought I might post this question to all my sculptor friends. Seems like all my graphic arts friends tell me I should buy nothing less than a Mac. What is the opinion of this group? Should I buy another windows based pc or should I get an Apple? Would you go laptop or desktop? Whats the most important features you would look for in a new computer?

Thanks, hope you can help me make an intelligent decision.

Steve

[ahirschman]

So, what you get depends very much on what you will use the thing for. Could you tell us what your main uses will be?

Ari.

[iowasculptor]

I just got a 20" imac with the dual core processor last feb. I have loved it, I really don't like pc's but this computer is great. Look at the mac website for some good ads I love the one where the pc gets a virus and has to restart. seriously I have always had a mac and in 15 years I have never had a worm or a virus, I have friend who have pcs and it seems that they are constantly having something that is needing to be patched. I have microsoft office for my business stuff and adobe creative suite for the rest I really don't know what else I would need.
best of luck
matt

[Stevem]

I want to be able to manage my website, I know I want photoshop, I want to be able to adjust my photos. I want to be able to super-impose photos of my sculptures into a park landscape or whatever the call may be for. I also want to be able to keep up with my newsletter and I want to be able to run my fledgling business. Keeping up with collectors, prospective buyers and scheduling. I have thought maybe a notebook so I could take it with me on trips and journal directly into it, but I've never had a notebook so that's all new to me. And like I said it's still a fledgling business so if you can think of anything else I may have a need for in the future please let me know.

Thanks

[Landseer]

Well I have run out of space on my computer and it is so old it's really time to upgrade. I have been shopping different sources and asking different peoples opinion of what I should get and keep coming up with different answers. So I thought I might post this question to all my sculptor friends. Seems like all my graphic arts friends tell me I should buy nothing less than a Mac. What is the opinion of this group? Should I buy another windows based pc or should I get an Apple? Would you go laptop or desktop? Whats the most important features you would look for in a new computer?

Thanks, hope you can help me make an intelligent decision.

SteveAs a former PC owner I say get a MAC, I buy all mine on Ebay used and never had a problem with any of them. I bought a new system 8 years ago a G3/300 but with all this stuff, in one year it's outdated, so I bought later on a G4, 450 for about $225 which was a lot faster, then I bought a G4, 533 for about $225 as a main machine and kept the 450 for a backup/spare.
Then last spring I bought a G4, 933 which is what I'm on now, I think it was about $450. All of the used units were trade in's from schools or businesses which both like to get the latest stuff, so you can get some high quality machines that haven't seen a lot of use, have been tested etc.
I have 3 of them networked in the house and studio with a Cysco router, and I have 2 Porche back up drives, a firewire DVD drive enclosure and more.

The seller I bought this one from sent a tested, CLEAN machine, WELL packed in a brand new computer box is

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback&userid=regencytechnologies

He doesn't always get Macs but I'd sure buy from him again.

I do photoshop, listen to music, do DVD movies and much more, I always have lots running at the same time, the machine is almost never turned off.
By the way, almost all the virus, worms, adware, spyware is written for the PC, it's nice being on MAC along with 17 of 18 people at work who are too, and never had to deal with virus , virus checks, updating virus software and all the rest of that crap. Every time I see people cry for help with their machine, their software, their installing stuff, a virus etc it's someone with a PC

[anatomist1]

Macs' major selling point is external ergonomics/sexy designing. Their other major selling point is that they are 'easier to use', at least in terms of everyday use and when interfacing with peripherals. (The claim does not hold up so well when it comes to problems and troubleshooting, as the operating system is less transparent and accessible to a normal user.)

My major complaint about macs is that they are far more expensive than PCs for the same performance characteristics... not only when you buy it, but as you buy other accessories, software, and peripherals later. Apple is like the mafia - once you start doing business with them, you must continue to buy virtually everything from them. Like any racket, the prices for the things you have to buy after you are hooked are even more expensive compared to the alternatives than the intial buy-in was compared to the competition. They work hard to make sure you can't interface their products with those of other manufacturers by making everything down to the 99 cent files they sell on Itunes in a proprietary format.

I like to save money and hate to be pushed around, so I have not and will not buy anything from Apple until they change their business model. Since I don't mind tinkering with things a little and don't much care how sexy the outside of my computer and peripherals look, I have saved probably thousands of dollars in the last decade or so and lost nothing. When you do your shopping comparisons, I suggest you also 'pretend' that you are buying a printer, mp3 player, external harddrive, replacement power cord and battery, etc... to get a feel for the real long-term price differences between the two systems.

Brands aside, if you can afford it, I recommend going with a notebook over a desktop if you have any portability need at all. I switched a couple years ago, and it has been great, not only for portability, built-in wireless, etc... but for cutting down on clutter and bulk. I also recommend the new generation wide aspect screens, which look great. Notebooks are significantly more expensive than desktop equivalents however, especially when it comes to upgrading memory and so forth.

I always buy a slightly 'outdated' computer to save money. I got my Sony mini-laptop from UBid for about half the price of the new equivalent, the only difference being a few megahertz and 20G of storage. Storage inside a computer is not a huge issue these days anyway, due to problem-free external hard drives.

[Scout]

I have a Mac and I wouldn't go back to the other for anything. No virus, lots of memory and I can have large numbers of windows open at the same time. I can carry it to the studio and work from my photos without having to print them out. I can take it to show my work. I can work on it on the road and even in the car. The battery lasts for about three hours if you are using it. I am also a photo nut so I have about 20,000 photos that don't even come close to filling it. Mine doesn't look designer like someone was complaining about, it's plain white and very thin. Easy, easy, easy!!! If you want to know anything specific I can ask my son-in-law...he sells them on the side. Scout

[obseq]

Anatomist completely summed it up in my opinion--

I personally like to have the option of tinkering with my computer, and until Apple starts making a putty-kinfe (ultra-hip I-knife, anyone?) to take their machines apart, it will be a long time before they see my money.

I'm much more concerned with optimum performance over a fashion statement any day. For confirmation, I dare anyone to venture into a Mac Store in the Los Angeles area; self-styled "media artists" cramming the store spending money like it was going out of style faster than their standard-issue "distressed" Guns N Roses t-shirts. :rolleyes:

I only point this out because it won't be very long before Mac starts to put out horrible machines which is why I am all too suspicious of purchasing one now-- But hey, it will still have cool racing stripes!

To each their own.

[iowasculptor]

when I got my machine this spring I got a free printer scanner, I see now they are giving an IPOD. As far as not being able to hook up periphirals I disagree, since its usb equipped you can hook up virtually any printer, digital camera etc. YOu just need to get the right driver, some equipment comes with it and if it doesn't you can download drivers for free on the internet. Also if you want to run it as a windows machine you can load up windows and then you can run you pc programs but most of them are not needed since mac comes preloaded with software. Also as far as transparency of the operating system??? I have heard that arguement before but I have never understood it since I don't tinker with my machine. I have never had to, maybe with all of those viruses you have to get in and trouble shoot a pc but with a mac its irrelevant since the darn thing just works. You don't have to buy your accessories programs and peripherals from mac it will run almost anything. They cost more than a PC but again I believe that they will last much longer without any maitainance. I had a G3 266 from 1998 that I just upgraded to my IMAC, the machine worked fine just wanted something with more space and speed, never had to do anything to it just added more ram.
matt

[ahirschman]

I see very fast PC's being advertised for around $300 new. If you want a cheap and fast machine you can get one of those. Add a little more RAM (Bring it up to at least 1 Gig) and you are all set for what you want.

Then, go and download a browser that is not IE (Internet Explorer). You can get Firefox for free (http://www.mozilla.com/firefox).

Then go and download open office for free (http://www.openoffice.org) and you will have a great office suite that can do any thing Microsoft office can do and more (Less security problems, smaller footprint, etc).

Without question, go and buy a large enough backup drive, so you do not loose your data when your disk fails (I had close to 1000 drives in a past job, and they failed all the time, even though they were SCSI drives in a temperature controlled environment. All disks die eventually).

You are now up to 450 to $500 for a nice and fast machine with a backup drive. If you want a DVD writer you probably will need to add another $50 or so.

The guys recommending Macs have skirted around the main reason to want a Mac. Macs run a much much better OS than PC's. Microsoft Windows is a disservice to humanity. The main problem is that so many companies develop software for Windows.

If you want a great machine just take any new or old PC and load Linux on it. It will fly circles around PC's with Windows, and will never crash. The problem with that is that I do not think Photoshop runs on Linux (You could use GIMP but it is probably not as good as photoshop - (I have not used it so I am just guessing)). Open Office, and Mozilla Firefox run on Linux.

Of course, you need antivirus SW, which you can also find for free.

Good luck, and let us know what path you take.

One more bit of advice, a good laptop will cost you at least double of what a desk top will cost. If you want one that runs a long time on battery then you are probably talking three times the cost. You could get a cheap desk top and a cheap laptop. Run photoshop and other heavy aps on the desk top and the rest on the lap top when traveling.

Ari.

[EJB]

Dude, Mac.

[Merlion]

Years ago, the Mac is mainly for graphic artists, and the PC is for other users. I understand, like many things in the information technology world, things can and do change very fast. Increasing people are changing over to the Mac. But the PC is still winning in the market ratio race.

In Jan 05, I changed my computer from my bulky desktop PC to a notebook PC. At that time, it didn't cross my mind to compare the Mac and the PC. Perhaps the next time I am due to change, I'll try to ask around, and to compare.

[fused]

I bought a HP Pavillion a year and a half ago, the biggest factor was cost and features. 180 gig drive, plenty of RAM etc. DVD & CD writer for a mere $350 after a rebate. I was leaning towards a G4 but my budget was tight and the price simplified the decision.

It's a good machine and I've had none of the headaches that people describe/associate with PCs.

[Stevem]

Well I got my new computer. I settled on a laptop. I got a Toshiba satellite. Everything seems great so far and the learning curve won't be so bad. Any ways thanks to all of you for the advice you offered.

Steve

[HappySculpting]

Hi Steve,

Wow you sure got a lot of help on finding a computer.

Glad you picked a laptop. We travel with ours and usually can get online at the major hotels even without paying for online service; It's just not that strong of a signal. (I'm not familiar with legalities- I just know we are able to get online.)

I use my laptop in my studio all the time to sculpt off of pictures. I can zoom in on the detail that I want to see. My keyboard gets a little clay on it but that's o.k., it washes off. :-)

~Tamara

[Ries]

I have a friend, Heath Satow, who designs all his sculptures in Rhino- he is one of the most skilled Rhino users I have seen. He does all the design work in the computer, then takes a cd to the laser cutters, and has the parts cut out, and then assembles it.
http://www.publicsculpture.com/

He is one of the most knowledgeable power computer users I know.
He is not a guy who wants a $300 computer- he is running a very high end graphics program, and in general really knows his stuff.

He recently bought a new computer- huge processor, screaming speeds, top of the line video card, giant screen- and after doing all the research, he found that conventional wisdom has it backwards- Macs, at the high end, are actually cheaper than PC's, for the same specs. Now granted, he is in the league where he spent $1200 on the video card alone, but he figures he saved $500 to $1000 on buying a Mac over a PC, and that is after having to buy Windows separately.
He boots his Mac up in windows most all the time, using Boot Camp, to run Rhino, so at this point, the Mac has become completely competitive in terms of running all the same software, competitive on price, and its still better looking, better made, and if you run the Mac operating system, its got NO viruses, NO trojans, NO crap coming in over the internet. No updating your firewall/protection software.

But there will always be those diehard PC fans who claim that because they have to fiddle with their hardware and software all the time, their computer is better.

To each his own.

[anatomist1]

A top-end computer for doing professional graphics, mixing music, or making movies is a different animal. I don't do any of that stuff, but it doesn't surprise me that Mac is more competitive in that area, as this is their niche, along with educational specialty markets. The issue of the thread was about buying a computer for average purposes, and the primary counter-argument was that Mac is considerably more expensive for this. My secondary argument was that they use proprietary schemes to force you into spending even more. I don't see how what you posted is relevant. Macs have their virtues, but for an average computer-using schmoe like me, it is essentially a luxury product with a luxury price. Since my computer purposes are utilitarian, I choose economy.

Incidentally, I know a woman who works in high management at Apple - in charge of coordinating overseas manufacturing or something. I was surprised to find upon visiting her house that she owned the same HP pavillion 3000 series notebook computer I did. We talked about it and she gave the same reasons I have stated for why she buys PC when it is her money being spent.

[anatomist1]

The usual half-baked hyperbole from Landseer.

Virus infections generally do not destroy your hard drive or cause anything but moderate inconvenience, if you have a sensible back up scheme. Moreover, if you are smart and minimally precautious, you rarely or never get them. I've gotten one worm in the past 10 years, and it happened when I was just installing everything on my computer after wiping the hard drive. It cost me about 30 minutes of my time. The only anti virus software I use is free. Every category of security software has adequate free options.

Second, if you read my posts here, you'd see I recommended buying a "slightly outdated" computer to save money.

I agree that these mac vs. pc discussions are relatively pointless, but as your post and many here evince, it's because most people's opinions are emotion-based and the arguments they present are illogical post hoc rationalizations.

[Stevem]

Sometimes I wonder why we bother to get into these Mac/PC discussions in response to posts that started this thread, when it's pretty clear the PC is where he was going in the first place, by all means stick to PC so we Mac users can continue to enjoy the lack of all those virus, worms and defects that plague windows/PC.

Don't discount the cost of having to buy anti virus software and then constantly updating it and paying for upgrades, and then if that software misses just *ONE* of them at any time, your hard drive and everything on it is GONE.

I see the Toshiba average price is $899-$1299, that's a few hundred more than the used Macs I suggested.




You know Landseer. I was really impressed with the amount of information you put into this thread. I really appreciated you taking the time to help me make an informed decision. Now what you are spouting isn't really sitting too well with me. You sound like someone who got upset when I made my own informed decision. The point of this thread was so I could ask all my aquaintances here for a little advice. I'm sorry if you got your feelings hurt because I didn't buy the Mac. I also had other people giving me information as well, and not that I see it as any of your buisness, I didn't give nearly that much for my laptop. I had a family member that got me a great deal on it. And I never said it was this years model. No I didn't have my mind made up before hand. If I had, I surely wouldn't have wasted my or anyone elses time with this thread.

[Landseer]

The usual snide remarks from Anatomist of course aside,
sorry if you took it that way, but you didn't hurt MY feelings by any means, it is after all YOUR money and I don't care what kind of computer someone buys, but I've seen these kinds of threads enough times I should have learned by now (but didn't I guess till today) not to waste my time posting to them- it's no different than political or religious debates because people's minds are made up in advance, so it becomes a mental excersize to debate the pro-con's when nothing changes, or it becomes a thread to see which "side" "wins" by the majority trying to convince the person to buy their favorite machine/camera/camcorder/car etc.

I just get annoyed to see these cheap, junk PC's and Billy Gates flawed software being foisted off on the public over and over and over again, and the public constantly falling for the same stuff again and again. Sometime later sure enough there's posts or emails asking for help with the latest bug patch installs, or people posting to an email list that their entire hard drive was wiped out and that their address book and all their email is gone.
I dont know man, if people spent $15,000 on a new car and it worked as poorly and was as buggy as a PC they'd be in court suing, but the same people don't seem to have a problem accepting defective PC's, laptop battery recalls, crappy software that's full of security holes you read about every WEEK, constant virus updates and all the rest.

You take a new regular PC on sale with a rebate, $350 for the works, doesn't the PRICE offer a clue as to what you are getting when a DVD drive or a hard drive runs $100 alone, and a monitor closer to $150-$200? yet amazingly they can sell an entire system with all of that included for only $350??
I work where 17 people all have Macs, it's all we use, ONE lady bought a Gateway PC against everyone's advice because her son suggested the PC, then when she had problems with the software or needed help to run it no one could her her out, funny, none of the 17 or I have the problems she did with software- we don't need to install drivers etc like you do on the PC when you add printers, cameras, scanners, etc- it just works.

[sculptorsam]

To avoid the whole PC/Mac argument, I have a more general suggestion...

It's generally a good idea to buy something when you don't absolutely need one. I had an old HP running Windows 98 that was getting buggy, but still functional. I religiously backed up my data and kept my eyes open. One day, I was walking through the local Office Depot and a floor model Compaq running Windows XP with all the bells and whistles was just put on clearance because the new model was coming in. So, for just over $200 I got a new tower that shames my old one. If I had waited until the previous one died, I would have been at the mercy of what was currently in stock and whatever offers were on at the time. So far, it's the best computer I've owned yet.

Good luck with the new laptop, Stevem.

[fused]

I'm glad Stevem started this thread --even though I've heard many of the remarks pro & con before-- it's been good to hear different opinions again. I don't really care what your bias is, but I do appreciate knowing what you like about the systems you use. I'm aquainted with super geeks who aren't involved in art at all --their jobs and lives totally revolve around technology-- and their computers are measured in terms I'd never even heard of until I met them.

I essentially did exactly what Sam just stated, the $350 was for the PC tower alone --the CD/DVD was built in-- and dropped another $150 on a new monitor so I could pass my old system on to my daughter. I had a few extra bucks to spend and it was an upgrade for both of us.

I also bought an Epson CX6400 printer/scanner because it was similarly on sale.