does art sold for pennies devalue all artists?

[classicalsculpt]

My feeling is, the more desperate artists are in pricing thier work too low, the more people will not know what quality art is, and the less more talented artists who work long and hard at developing real skills will have a chance to make a living. This decreases the overall quality and taste in art, and puts the best work unnoticed, where work from far less talented artists runs rampant due to the greed factor.
I feel this can be overcome, if we sell ourselves well, but the job is not easy especially with the ebay and convention center '$30 original art'

[dilida]

Classicalsculpt,

Hi! I think there are so many artists out there working in so many different mediums that range greatly in the cost of producing, that if some need to sell cheaply, and can still make a profit, it won't hurt the art world as a whole. Kinda like water seeking it's own level, I have always thought everyone finds thier own niche. I'm curious to see how the whole China thing is going to affect the American maket though, 'cause I think the world is going to be flooded with "cheap" art, if it isn't already.

lisa

[evaldart]

Commissions and sales MUST occur. My life depends on it. I will get whatever price I need to get. Sometimes I'm thrilled with that price sometimes not. I do not care what anyone else is selling their work for.

[fused]

I don't make sculpture to match your sofa.

you know what you've got... when you've got it.

[evaldart]

Never heard of anyone trying to match a sofa with sculpture but it might be a challenge. Issues of plushness, contour, texture...a scotchguard sealer perhaps. hmmmm.

[marblecutter]

No matter how much I sell a work for, I always feel that I am giving away more than I receive because I could never get the real compensation for all the time and creativity involved. Just remember, behavior that is not rewarded will not be repeated. I feel great reward when people appreciate my work and chose to live with it with the same joy that it took to produce it. I do not feel good about giving my work away without a fee exchanged because most people will appreciate most what their money is invested in. The dollar figure is really not of importance, what matters is the achieved goal of art for art's sake. The monetary value is only a small token that feeds financial obligations that must be met.

[Landseer]

No different than a job, you get say $12 an hour doing work for a boss who in turn makes $1500 an hour profit off your labor. Art today is a luxury item, unlike food, shelter, clothing, transportation, utilities, the need/desire is what sets the PRICE people are willing to pay for a luxury item.

Most working people will not buy,nor can they afford say $35,000 for a bronze statue to stick in their back yard garden just to look pretty amongst the flowers while the kids need braces, car payment is due, mortgage payment, bills etc
but they WOULD probably buy a cheap plastic or resin knock-off of that statue at Wal-Mart for $99 from China to stick in the garden to look pretty.

Your $1M a year executive looks at that $35,000 statue and probably doesn't think twice about the price- just SHIP IT , get it here tomorrow he says- I want it for my new gazebo center-piece, but how MANY of those $1M types are there ? , how many statues and sculptures can they possibly BUY every year? and how many thousands of people contact them in one way or another trying to sell stuff to them, and lastly- what makes any one seller stand out to them?

There's a whole lot more of the type who would barely spend $99 for "art", and then mostly shop by price, and what they can afford- a $35,000 statue is so totally out of their world of reality it's not funny.

Cheap art devalues the rest yes, because the rest then looks WAY overpriced, how does "Joe" insurance salesman know that the $79 bronze Mene horse on Ebay, made in China- is junk , when he sees the same bronze from an American foundry going for $1800 and the two basically look the same to him in photos?

While none of us like to work for free or $3 an hour, the way I see it, it you ARE making money if you sell the art and the materials were less, so the issue becomes how much time was spent creating the art v/s how much you are paid for "X" number of hours.

I guess I figure that as long as one is earning a living from the art, self sufficient and DONT have to work for some dumb boss 9-5 M-F then they are ahead of the game even if the time spent to payment received winds up BEING $3 an hour, at least the person is not flipping burgers or mopping floors for some boss who tells them what to do 9 hours a day.

There's a lot worse things than not getting full value for art and spending twice the hours on it than you figured- worse like; it not selling at all, or having to apply for a job at McDonalds to pay the bills because no one is buying the art at any reasonable price and the materials are costing more than one is taking in.

[classicalsculpt]

as long as one is earning a living from the art, self sufficient and DONT have to work for a boss:

my highest goal in life!- to make a living being in the studio all day, and not get interrupted to go to a job.

Landseer, if you are doing this, I'd be happy to learn how. There has never been a day job I have liked, no matter how much postive self talk I try. Compared to the glories of making art, everything else is boring to me.
I feel the reason for that is not a bad attitude, it is my calling to make it happen. And I am thankful for what my previous jobs have taught me, but, there comes a point when enough is enough, and its time to make it a reality.
This is just my personal view.

[Landseer]

as long as one is earning a living from the art, self sufficient and DONT have to work for a boss:

my highest goal in life!- to make a living being in the studio all day, and not get interrupted to go to a job.

Landseer, if you are doing this, I'd be happy to learn how. There has never been a day job I have liked, no matter how much postive self talk I try. Potentially I COULD quit my day job and live off my art right now, BUT I have a lot of work to do on the house, car and other things and I'd rather get these done in the next 2-3 years as well as sock away a few more thousand dollars, build up my business, inventory, materials etc, possibly build a stand alone studio etc from my paycheck before saying ADIOS!

So at least for the next 3 years I'll still be working for some boss, but not as a 100% captive dependent slave!

The key is keeping your living expenses low, obviously living in San Francisco is going to cost WAY more for housing, utilities, taxes, food etc than it would in rural mid-west. I don't have a mortgage- it was paid off 3 years ago 5 years early by making extra payments every month on the principal. Yes, it was a pain to take Christmas bonus money and send it off to the bank, along with extra payments every month, but it saved lots in interest and a paid off mortgage is real nice.

My property taxes are under $100 a year for a 2 BR 1100 foot house on 1/2 acre of land, electric here is about 5 cents a KWH- half what it is in California, my utilities- heat, hot water, water, sewer, phone, garbage, electric, A/C etc run about $200 a month. I have an R value of around 100 in my attic which cuts the heat bill and A/C use a lot, so it all makes a big difference.

I could live here on $500 a month comfortably, and if an artist can't make THAT amount in a month then there's something wrong.

[danthoman]

Wow, $500 a month! That would barely cover my property taxes and insurance, and I live in rural Georgia on just over a acre.

Back to the original post: yes, I do think it lessens the value of all art. Not to many years ago I was participating in an art show and got the chance to look at my 'competition'. I was astounded at the low price he was selling his work (turned wood bowls, vases) for. When I asked how he did it he said that he was retired and didn't care if he made money. He went on to brag that he figured he made about $0.50 an hour. How could/can I compete. Even though his work was not the quality of mine, no one was going to pay me $500 for a bowl when his were only $25.

It just encourages people to buy an OK piece cheap rather than to appreciate the quality and beauty of an exquisite piece of art.

[evaldart]

I have found that on "major" art purchases people just have to have it and the price is not so much an issue. (within reason of couse) They realize the absolute singularity of what they are getting so there is no real competition. Of course smaller or less ambitious pieces, and I make plenty of those also, pay their dues by selling in volume. I have learned to make them faster so, though the price is diminutive, I feel okay about it. And prices are doubled in gallery or commercial situations because of their cut so it ends up not ever being low there.

[dilida]

The price people pay for art has nothing to do with the beauty, or exquisitness or quality. It has to do with how people want to spend their money. Go figure, quien sabe?
Artists can chase after the dollar, because of want,or need, or both. We all do what we gotta do, the buyers and the sellers. To say selling your art cheaper, for whatever reason, hurts all artists bothers me because we all have different circumstances. How can you say we will set this standard, this price, this measure, in something like art?

Personally, I wish I could give all my creations away, to everyone who wants one, to share like that must be what our spirits were intended for.

Yes, I'm disagreeing, but I'm doing it honestly, I mean no offense,

lisa

[danthoman]

Lisa, I kind of agree -and disagree with you. I have clients that come to my studio, have a set price they want to spend and find a piece to match the price. What the piece does for them is of no consequence. They just want to be able to say the own a ‘Dan Thoman’ something. I cringe every time this happens. I want to scream at them and say don’t buy something unless it inspires you, moves you or just makes you happy to look at it.

Then you have the people that make it all worthwhile. I have one customer that usually buys small stuff, generally less than $100. He often looked at other pieces but said he couldn’t justify the cost (a polite way of saying I’m to expensive). Then one day he walked in to look around, saw a new large cherry vessel, gasped, picked it up and bought it without even looking at the price. He said he had to have it “because it takes my breath away.” Certainly made my day, not because of the sale but because of his reaction. :D

Selling art cheaper than other artists, at a cost the artist thinks appropriate or giving art away is fine. I give away thousands of dollars worth of art to charities and non-profits each year. I would rather give it away than sell it a less than what I think it’s worth. What I really don’t like and think hurts all artists are the hacks, selling bad stuff (I hate to call it art) just to make a buck. :mad:

[ironman]

Hi, Gimme a break here, will ya! Give it all away? Are you kidding?
One of my art teachers used to say,

"Want something for nothing, ask an artist!"

I have given stuff away (twice) to charitable/ fund raising events in the past, BUT, came to my senses and stopped that foolishness a long, long time ago.

Some of us are trying to make some a living at this shit. Fortunately most of the stuff I've seen that's "given away" or "low priced" is that way cause no body'd buy it anyway!
Have a great day,
Jeff

[danthoman]

I couldn’t disagree with you more. :) I went and checked and I’ve given away, on average, $1200 per year for the last several years. While you might think I’ve “given something for nothing” you’re reasoning is flawed for many reasons.

First, it’s always good to give back to your community. If you support them, they will support you. While I’m not a religious person, I do believe what goes around comes around. I live in a small town and do not advertise, except via my web site. The way people find me is through donations and word of mouth. Many of the local stores recommend me when a customer wants a ‘one of a kind’ piece. They don’t have to do that. They do it because I always donate to the local charities.

Second, it exposes you to a very large audience. I look at it as cheap advertising. In fact most of my regular clientele found me through benefit auctions. For example, a hand carved $200 bowl given to the local historical society benefit last fall resulted in a $2400 commission; and a recent woodturning demonstration to benefit a local museum has resulted in a $17,000 commission.

[evaldart]

I have to agree with Danthoman here. I once sold a candleabera for 135 dollars that found its way into the right home resulting later in a sizeable comission. And work that I allow entities to "borrow" (I may or may not ever go back and get it) continuously results in sales or comissions in the very same way the sold pieces do. Its just another way of being visible and active. I still have far too much work just lying around doing nothing and in the mayhem of the studio it in almost indistinguishable from the piles of scrap. But I am not fond of just giving it away, I have but do not make a practice of it.

[ironman]

Hi, I stated from my previous post that I've donated 2 pieces to charitable/fund raising events, actually it's been 3 pieces, and nothing ever came back to me from those donations!
I've gotten much more referrals, business and REPEAT business from the works I've sold.
I don't sell sculpture or small framed drawings for less than $500 and that's for a very small piece.
I have a friend who does ceramic sculptures and makes over 200 (yeah, that's not a typo, 200) of them a year. Of course some are donated, his prices are fairly low and with that high production, he can afford to donate.
I don't work that way and many of my smaller works have a lot of time invested in them.
Have a great day,
Jeff

[Baraka]

Dan, I have to agree with you, as many of my gifts to fund raisers has given back a lot more than I lost. As an example, I have a few L.E. prints, and several years ago, I donated one to raise money when a tornado destroyed half of our little theatre building in this small town. I'd totally forgotten about this donation.

A lady, who I only knew casually, purchased the $75 print for $450, hung it over her desk at work, and looks at it every day. This past December, she commissioned me to do my first sculpture in over 10 years, a life-size weanling foal. She is getting the community behind a project to put approximately 3 sculptures in town - all done by me - and it is rapidly moving forward. She is guaranteeing this piece, meaning any money not raised toward this project, will be paid by her selling some property she owns. This lady works 7 days a week, and drives a car with 270 miles on it. She said she would rather own art than a new car. She also paid $2,500 for a bronze copy of the maquette, and has donated $5,000 to get the fund raiser started for the life size piece. She's applying for grants, and organizing a fund raising dinner auction.

Not only is this good for me finanacially, but has awaken a passion in me that had virtually died.

On another note, in a discussion on art, someone once pointed out that the majority of people do not have confidence in their own ability to judge good art work, from bad. They, therefore, use the price as their guide. I've found this to basically be true. Of course there are many who don't care if they have taste or not, and will buy anything. They simply have no eye for quality. On the otherhand, art means different things to different people, and there is a portion of the population who only want the best. IMO, if you are working representationally, with figures, animals, etc. many of your clients will be bothered if the balance, proportions, expressions, etc. are not accurate. Many can judge this, if not the technical quality of the work.

The thing that puzzles me most is seeing quality work, in galleries, for little more than foundry cost. I don't know how they can do it, and do find it discouraging when I HAVE to get at least twice that for the same size piece to cover everything and leave a little for me. I have a lot to learn.

Barbara
MY WEBSITE (http://www.barakafarm.com)