Foundry ?

[Pale Comparison]

Hi :) ,

I periodically visit this site to get good advice...so here I am with a question

I will be trying my hand at setting up a foundry on a very small scale sculptures 6-9 inches high.

Is ths possible in an apartment or are the fumes too dangerous and toxic even with the window open.

I was looking at purchasing this burnout oven 21"W x 21"D x 26"H $2600.00 without automatic control and a kerr electromelt furnace.

Please advise on whether I should even consider as I am kind of thinking I could get by with the window open


Any help/advise would be greatly appreciated Thanks !

[PTsideshow]

In one word no. It Probably not a very good idea, when your neighbors found out. Oh boy,Lawyers, Lawyers and think ca ching for them! If you are planing on only doing pewter you could do it. As you go up the scale of materials the temps and other hazards multiply.
The biggest reason is the electical hook ups needed for both the kiln and the electro melt. 220volts minimum. And thats a larger burnout oven for the size of the melting furnace and with out auto controls.
The other thing is you can only pour a item completely at one time. Not like some other things that you can mix a batch and pour and then mix more and pour. You can pour smaller sections and assemble the sculpture. The venting issuses, and the clean up/ molding issues mess. the problem if you have to abort the pour. What do you do with the the hot melt, to get it out of the crucible. And a host of issues.
I will not even touch on the legal end and issues that could arise :D
I'm sure it has and is being been done, Jewelry sized work and a little larger. Unless you have a large apartment with a very large electrical service amp wise and acces to the boxes for hook up. Again the answer in one word is No.
source for books and casting supplies (http://www.budgetcastingsupply.com/)
book source on casting (http://www.lindsaybks.com/)
one of the better sites for casting (http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/forums/index.php)

[Pale Comparison]

Thanks for the advice Glen I guesss I will have to search for someone to let me use their garage for the foundry phase of my work.


So I allso have another question my work is quite detailed and some jewllery sized do you think I should invest in a vaccuum or will a vibrating table give good enough results.

Setting up a foundry for a person who is technically savy could probably be bult for under a few couple grand or maybe less but since I have no technical/electrical expertise I will have to resort to buying my equipment

so far I have accounted for the burnout oven , large kerr elctromelt furnace, possibly a vaccuum or vib table any other bi ticket items or must have foundry items I've missed.

I will be visiting the sites you linked on your reply ..... :)

[PTsideshow]

If you are talking about lost wax casting, or oragnic burn out casting. Then you would be well repayed if you get the following books at least from the Library and read them, then hunt them down on the used book sites.
Books (http://www.amazon.com/)
Books,Books (http://www.barnesandnoble.com/index.asp?z=y)
Books,Books,Books, (http://www.alibris.com/) Books,Books,Books,Books (http://www.bookfinder.com/)
I have used all of them and the first two are very good sources for used books.
Here are some titles you should look for:
Centrifugal or lost wax Jewelry casting, Murray Bovin ISBN 0-910280-05-3,1988
Really good it is old school in the sense that it is in Black/White pictures but the drawing are clear and this is one of the books most people that have written books learned from.
Practical casting, McCreight Tim ISBN 0-9615984-5-X,1994
Another mainstay I am a fan and have found all of his books worth the money.
Complete Metalsmith, McCreight Tim ISBN 1-929565-05-4 2004
Any of the different editions will help somebody that isn't metal or tech savy. The Pro edition has some added and bunos features on disk that I have found helpful.
then you can go on from there
If the items are small in volume you may want to start with a hand pump vacuum pump Harbor Fright (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=92474)
ITEM 92474-0VGA Even if you don't purchase stuff form them they are a wonderful source of info. If you look for this link A green bar with download product manaul in it you can download a PDF file with the assembly and operating instruction that will prove helpful for somebody that is not a techno head.
Here are some more that can be good sources of info Look for a local to you dealers on this main site (http://grobetusa.com/)
East coast (http://www.contenti.com/)
West Coast (http://www.ottofrei.com/)
In the Middle (http://www.gesswein.com/catalog/home.cfm?CFID=615855&CFTOKEN=44332573)
North Coast (http://www.kingsleynorth.com/)
Mould making (http://www.freemansupply.com/JewelryInvestmentC.htm)
the hobby side of the above site (http://www.hobbycast.net/video.htm)
The place for mold making info (http://www.smooth-on.com)
Look for the video's on the freeman and hobby sites.
I have used most if not all at one time or another. Other that being a satisfied customer all the Usual disclaimers apply :D

[Pale Comparison]

Thanks Glen :) I will definitely be looking into getting some of those books

[Aaron Schroeder]

You could easily wine and dine half a dozen private art foundry owners, who'd be more than willing to cast your stuff , for the money and trouble you're planning to spend. I'm the kind of guy that wants to do it all but there comes a time when making friends is just a whole lot easier. I suggest doing a little more research, make some phone calls, do a road trip or two or three and get some good time foundry buddies. Macho, tough foundry guy are reall easy to work with if you appear generous with your money. If they come to associate you with cash, you'll get a finished piece. And maybe friends for life.

[Max Silver]

I agree with Aaron. By the time you spend the money necessary to set up even a rudimentary functional foundry, you will still have to invest in proper materials, bronze, etc. Then you will need to make all the mistakes ($$$$$$$$$) necessary to become experienced enough to get consistant results when you pour your own work.
Initially you will be better off paying a good foundry to cast your work. During this time you can learn a lot just visiting the facility and asking lots of questions.
You can minimize costs by learning to make your own molds, pouring and chasing your own wax patterns before taking them to the foundry, chasing and doing final finish on the castings they do for you.
In time you will be better prepared to follow through on your current plans if that is what you still desire.
Furthermore, doing all this stuff really takes away time from your creative time and you may find yourself more involved in the "business" side and less on the "artist" side.
I WOULD STRONGLY ADVISE THAT YOU NOT TRY DOING ANY OF THESE CASTING ACTIVITIES IN A CLOSED APARTMENT.
Good luck to you.

[PTsideshow]

This is going to be a program on lost wax casting of a bronze sculpture on the program Trade School on the DIY network. Bronze foundry TV work here are the show times:
March 13, 2007
10:30 PM Eastern
March 14, 2007
2:30 AM Eastern
March 14, 2007
10:30 AM Eastern
This may be of help

[Pale Comparison]

I can understand waiting to set up a foundry til I get a proper set up and for freeing up time for other works....... but for some reason I was wondering whether or not someone who can finish their own sculpture & then also cast to bronze may have a creative edge over someone who strictly carves in wax and outsources.

I think I may outsource for now, as my current goal is to strictly exhibit my work but eventually I will definitely get a foundry going money aside as a sculptor I feel I need my own foundry set up :)

Thanks for all the advice everyone

[PTsideshow]

You should have a very good understanding of all the in and outs, plus and drawbacks of all the steps. But when you do it yourself you also add all things that can drive you to distraction. As I'm not in to casting sculpture items now , more the direct additive metal type small size. I think you could have the actual casting process get in the way of the creative. And hinder the final peice.

[Max Silver]

I would definitely support your goal of having as much control over your work as possible. When you send a piece to the foundry many people will add their own identity to your work in subtle ways from the wax chaser to the persons who do the final chasing of the bronze casting. When you get the work back it will represent many peoples techniques, interpretations, etc.
I do all of my own work these days after casting works for other artists for many years.
The final product is completely my own work, for good or bad. The only drawback is that after so many years of doing bronzes I am really kinda burned out and almost dread it when my work sells from our gallery and I need to make more. I guess I regret the time it takes away from my other creative endeavors, which is increasingly commissions from visitors to our gallery.
But follow your own drum beat and in the end you will have few regrets.

[dilida]

I have to chime in here. There is no artwork in the actual pouring of bronze or building the shell. If you learn to make your molds, do the wax work and then the bronze chasing, you maintain control of the artwork, while letting someone else do the hardest and most expensive part. And yes, the molds and chasing is VERY time consuming, that's why foundries are expensive. We mainly sell time. You will probably find the best combination for yourself, I think that's part of the creative process.

lisa

[Max Silver]

While I would agree that there is no "artwork" involved in casting the work, there is without a doubt an "art" to properly treeing a wax for casting and then getting the metal poured at the right temperature for the wax thickness.

Some foundries just cast away and let their craftspeople fix what didn't come out well in the pour while some foundries take a lot of pride in getting the pour right in the first place.

And yes, in the end artists are simply paying for time.....

[Aaron Schroeder]

Something to consider...... I know you want bronze...... but how about bronze like. Increasingly I'm seeing high quality resin castes that look so much like the real thing that the only thing that gives it away is the price tag.
With resins You could put together a whole show with the windows closed. I like to think that bronze will outlast other mediums but considering the value of metal in an increasingly harsh global economy, I just see that bronze getting melted down way before the resin castes degrade. If some one wants their sculpture in bronze, caste a wax, and send it to your foundry buddies who'll then promptly call their crack head cousin who'll then steal a priceless sculpture from someone else for twenty bucks for the bronze. My point is that recycleable materials dispite their mystique are'nt archival. All the bronzes from thousands of years ago in museums could easily have been resins. Something to consider...........

[anton]

hi all
in making a bronze sculpture yourself with your own foundry is more rewourding that have someone els do it it the time you spend making the sculpture then making the mould then casting it in wax then making the mould then casting in bronze that make it wourthwhail to do yourself.
in making a coldcast resin sculpture it trial and erra like doing hot bronze if you do it yourself but coldcasting bronze can be just as good as hot bronze??
mybe it the love of the heat the molte metal seeing how the solled turn into a flowing hot mass that you can control to get it to do what you whant it to do and end up with a bronze sculpture that you can say i did it all by myself????????
anton

[Aaron Schroeder]

Yah...... There really is no substitute for the foundry experience...... Another really good reason to go to a good art school. If you have the means, by all means build a foundry and caste your own stuff. Good times. However, your typical sculpting enthusiast doesn't have the money,space or time to enjoy the ideal, full sculpting experience. What do you do if a foundry isn't an option. Stop sculpting ? Find another way ? For me it's about keeping the ball rolling regardless of the medium.

I miss art school and tax payer supported facilities.

[Pale Comparison]

Hi guys ,

I can't shake the need to get afoundry going so I am contemplating setting up the foundry but this time in my parents garage to avoid any issues with the condo people.

So here are my questions....

1) Could I avoid the melter and just buy a burn out oven to do both the investment burn out and metal/bronze melting ? Is this a common practice please advise thanks ?

2) Is there an affordable( 1-2000.00) vaccuum casting/ investing machine available for small scale sculpture 6 to 10 inches high ? or an alternative to which would ensure detail would be maintained.


PLease let me know big thanks

[Andrew Werby]

Hi guys ,

I can't shake the need to get afoundry going so I am contemplating setting up the foundry but this time in my parents garage to avoid any issues with the condo people.

[Where are the fumes supposed to go? You need some serious ventilation to burn out wax in molds. It's really not a good idea to do this in a garage - an outdoor space would be better.]

So here are my questions....

1) Could I avoid the melter and just buy a burn out oven to do both the investment burn out and metal/bronze melting ? Is this a common practice please advise thanks ?

[It's been tried, but it doesn't work too well. An electric kiln (which I assume you're talking about) works adequately as a burn-out oven, but you need to run it with the lid cracked to vent the fumes, or the reducing atmosphere will melt your elements. You can melt metal in a top-loading kiln, but it's very slow compared to a real melting furnace, giving the metal a chance to oxidize a lot more. Also, getting the crucible out of the kiln without damaging anything is not easy, and the superheated air all rushes out and into your face every time you try to check your melt, slowing everything down yet more, since these kilns don't retain heat well.]

2) Is there an affordable( 1-2000.00) vaccuum casting/ investing machine available for small scale sculpture 6 to 10 inches high ? or an alternative to which would ensure detail would be maintained.

[For sculpture, you don't really need vacuum assist to get the metal into the mold. That is mostly a requirement for the very small amounts of metal used in jewelry or dental casting, which otherwise ball up from surface tension. Once you've got 5 lbs or more of bronze going, that's not a problem - you can just use gravity. Vacuum investment is also mostly used for jewelry; you'd need a very large bell-jar to handle the amount of investment required for even a small sculpture. Many sculpture foundries have gone to ceramic shell instead of investment to get the detail they want, without the problems of moving huge molds. But of course, that process has other drawbacks, like the multiple layers which all have to dry between coats.]


PLease let me know big thanks

[I'd say get a job working in an art foundry for a while. You'll learn how to do all this safely and correctly, and you'll get the employee discount on castings, which should save you a lot of money.]

Andrew Werby
www.unitedartworks.com

[Pale Comparison]

Thanks Andrew

So a melter and a burn out oven it is .... yeah the thing is some of the work I do is definitely under the 5lb mark and very dainty figurines with very small defined detail which I would like to maintain ........so if use a ceramic shell can I forego the vaccuum investor//caster

[Pale Comparison]

Last Foundry question .....if I were to buy a small table top gold melter/furnace designed to melt 3kg of gold will it fit 3kg of bronze or is 3kg of bronze to big to fit in one of those jeweller table top gold melters....Pleassssssssse advise thanks :confused:

[anatomist1]

Trying to put a whole foundry and ceramic shell setup in a small garage sounds crazy to me. The fireproofing and electricity service concerns are bad enough, but also the space. Also, I doubt there is any way house insurance would cover an accident, and if the insurer found out what you were doing, they would probably drop you. You could easily end up making your family homeless and be in debt for decades. In an apartment it would pretty much be impossible. Any landlord would evict you from a rental for doing that kind of thing in a second, if they didn't crucify you or have you drawn and quartered first.

In general, your questions are so broad that it sounds to me like you lack the experience to pull off creating your own foundry by a long shot. It sounds to me like you are seriously heading towards poisoning or injuring yourself and/or others, destroying a building, and/or wasting a lot of money.

I suggest working with a commercial foundry, as others have said. You can do wax work, smooth-on molds, and grinding/polishing stuff in a garage no problem. If you are really obsessed with the idea of being involved in the shell and pouring, try taking a foundry course at a University or art school, or getting a job at a foundry, as suggested. You need this kind of experience before you start doing anything by yourself. Also, it will be a way to try it out. Some people really love the process, but many find it about as intriguing as putting in a day's labor at a canning factory.

[Pale Comparison]

where there is a will there is a way my friend :)

back to my question

Last Foundry question .....if I were to buy a small table top gold melter/furnace designed to melt 3kg of gold will it fit 3kg of bronze or is 3kg of bronze to big to fit in one of those jeweller table top gold melters....Pleassssssssse advise thanks

[Funes]

Gold is around 15.9gml-1 compared to 8.3gml-1 for bronze ( it's going to vary with alloy but not by much, I used 18ct vas manganese bronze ) so you'll only manage around 1.5kg of bronze in that crucible.

[SPRINGFIELD]

I'm thinking that if your sculptures are small you might try spin casting. It's a little expensive to get started but there is a lot less danger and smell involved. In spin casting you use pewter and zinc type metals. The molds are made out of vulcanized silicone. There is no wax burnout involved and the metal can be melted by an electric melting pot. Anyway it's something to consider. Also if your interested once the molds are finished you can realy produce a lot copies of your sculptures very fast. Here in california Conquest Industries sells all the equipment and even the casting metals. Maby you can try searching "metal spin casting" on the web.
Just saw a complete metal spinning set up on E-Bay for less than $2000
see item 290117332092. Also try www.contenti.com. I'm also trying to cast stuff in my garage and the bigest problem is the smell which is a big give away as to what you are doing. Especially the wax burnout which is why I'm also considering some sort of spin casting using vulcanized silicone molds. This is also how they make those detailed metal soldiers and fantasy gaming figures. You might also try "toy soldier casting" or something like that on the web.
Also try www.conleycasting.com

[SPRINGFIELD]

By the way just to show you don't have to go too hi tech. I just cast these today using a sand, flour and molasses mold. The first was made off a silicone rubber model and the last two were made using the lost wax method.
They are shown just as they came out of the mold except I brushed them with a small wire brush. They are cast out of aluminum I haven't tried anything hotter like bronze yet. Like everyone's saying though you nhave to be very careful when folling around with metal casting. I like using this sand formula a lot better than plaster or other investments because the burn out is so much easier. About 350 F for one hour was plenty enough for these small sculptures.
Iv'e found that when your done with the sand it works pritty good as potting soil if you mix in some regular potting soil too. So far the plants are doing just fine. Try doing that with plaster.

[chris 71]

how large can you cast with spin casting

[SPRINGFIELD]

If you go to www.tekcast.com that should give you some idea about the size of castings possible with spin casting. I think the real question might be how thick can your castings be?