Do You Agree with This Mother?

[Merlion]

This news story below carries a video.

Mothers: Soldier Memorial Glorifies Violence (http://kutv.com/topstories/topstories_story_096130631.html)

April 6, 2007, (CBS) LITTLETON, Colo. A soldier memorial located near three schools and two playgrounds should be relocated because the design showing a Navy SEAL clutching an automatic rifle glorifies violence, according to a group of parents pushing for change.

"I don't think young children should be exposed to that in that way -- unsupervised by their parents or any adults," said Emily Cassidy, one of the mothers.

The group objects to the memorial's location near a middle school, a school for the gifted and an elementary school. Columbine High School, where 12 students, a teacher and two gunmen died in 1999, is about 2 miles away.

Community leaders raised $42,000 for the sculpture honoring Danny Dietz, who received the Navy Cross, the Navy's second-highest medal, more than a year after his death in Afghanistan......

"I don't believe it promotes violence. It's an American hero who gave his life for all of us," Cindy Dietz, Danny Dietz's mother, told a Denver TV station Thursday.....

The sculpture is expected to be unveiled on the Fourth of July.

[evaldart]

This was down the street from my house in Jersey city. Schools would bring the kids to look at it. My son and I walked past it all the time, he rarely noticed it (he prefers abstract sculpture). No I don't agree with this mother.

[Tired Iron]

Ever heard of a book called "Dumbing Us Down"? Well the core of knowledge that our citizens need is shrinking faster than the value of our dollar. I'll bet this woman couldn't even tell you where Afghanistan is on a map. check this out..>>

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/bookstore/dumbdnblum1.htm

[Landseer]

We seem to glorify violence and war, that's why cartoons, comic strips, boys' toys, movies etc all seem to have guns, shooting, hitting and other physical violence.

"a school for the gifted"

"Gifted" or is this now just the new PC term for "retarded" "slow" ?

[Julianna]

Do these parents also not have a tv in their house or let their children go to a house with a tv? Do they also not let their children watch movies? :rolleyes:

[Blacksun]

The mother and her group of protestors are morons :p . They sleep comfy, cozy every night because there are young (and old) men that are willing to pick up a weapon and wade into the fight when needed. She should walk her children past that memorial every morning and remind them that brave men like this young Navy SEAL are to be respected and honored for their sacrafice. The finest thing her kids could do when of age is to follow his example and enlist.

All in favor of mandatory military service raise your hand (or write your congressman). :)

[GlennT]

Until we no longer live in a world where people who actually do glorify violence are willing to kill us given a chance, we will continue to need men and women sacrificing their comfortable lives at home to protect the rest of us, which sorry to say sometimes includes using violent means. A little gratitude given towards these men and women can go a long way. The protesters not only lack gratitude, they lack the ability to connect the dots in their lives.

GlennT

[sculptr97]

Good point Glenn, and others. There is a huge difference between glorifying violence, and honoring bravery and sacrifice. These folks need to open there minds a little to see the difference between good and evil. Should policemen not wear guns anymore? Anyhow they must still be shaken from the horrific tradgedy that took place so close to there lives. Nevertheless, we must stand strong in the face of possible censorship.

[anatomist1]

All that righteous blather about honoring sacrifice and whatnot gets a little tired, especially when used as a segue into the ridiculous claims that there is nothing better for children to aspire to than joining the military and that service should be required for everyone. I don't think there is anything inherently good or respectable about joining the american military, especially these days.

Over the history of the country, there have been times when the military has been used for truly necessary or admirable goals, but not many. In the majority of historical instances, the military has been used to expand territory and serve the narrow political and economic interests of elites. Right now we have unprecedented corruption in the government and are using the military almost strictly in the service of empire-building and economic venturing. The costs to us as citizens are huge, and deaths of soldiers are only part of it. The propaganda and lies are so thick that most americans can't see the obvious consequence that our imperialistic behavior is so transparent and offensive to most of the world that we are creating far more terrorists than we have killed by orders of magnitude.

In my view, erecting a war-memorial of this type in this climate can legitimately be seen as pro-violence and pro-war propaganda, just like the mothers claim. I'm sure some people involved were thinking of nothing but paying tribute to the man depicted, or others like him they knew, but I can't help but think the some of the people behind it also picked someone killed in Afghanistan for cynical reasons... it being the relatively non-controversial current theater of war.

I agree that many Americans should be honored for their sacrfices in war, but at what point do we start talking about the fact that this kind of mindlessly positive message is inducing people to sacrifice for goals that aren't honorable - the pursuit of which are actually harming everyone in the country except a tiny, priviliged minority? At what point do we start questioning people who believe lies and sign up to go kill or be killed in the service of a cynical agenda of greed and avarice, however unwittingly? My guess is that most people never will, and we will continue to become more warmongering and militaristic as a society, and less free.

Practically speaking, Colorado is currently seething with conservative right-wing groups and churches, and I suspect these mothers just want to take a stand and draw a line somewhere. I've seen tanks on display in front of churches there. I have to agree with Julianna though that given how much violence and war-glorification we are exposed to overall, making a big deal about one statue seems a bit arbitrary.

[Aaron Schroeder]

Seems those who have posted thus far agree, No Censorship. However playing Devil's advocate, seems to me that as long as male values count for more than female values, war ( or at least the threat of war )will be constant and unending. Someday, someway more sophisticated modes of conflict resolution can be developed ( or not ), I'm guessing that they will have to be depicted and glorified to the extent that it overpowers all the pre-existing images and objects that deal with war and violence as a subject. As long as we stockpile weopons and systems of mass destruction, the temptation to use them will always be there. When will we glorify ( for real ) those who put down their weopons and pick up the tools necessary to fix the problems that drive us to violence then we might actually see long term peace. As a species that springs naturally to war, I just don't know how we can get there without removing the all the provocative content from our environments. The fear of war causes war. We made the Japanese give up their swords maybe we should give up our depictions of a hero's glorious sacrifice.

[evaldart]

Thank you Anatomist. Bad people ruin it for everyone. And from my own powerful bias, the world is a better place with my children IN it.

[cooljamesx1]

Thats interesting because I live in littleton and Danny Deitz went to my high school. I didn't know him personally or anything, I think he graduated the year before I started high school. As far as the memorial goes, if it looks like the description sounds, I wouldn't mind if I was a parent.

[cooljamesx1]

also the idea of mandatory military service is rediculous.

[cooljamesx1]

"I'm sure some people involved were thinking of nothing but paying tribute to the man depicted, or others like him they knew, but I can't help but think the some of the people behind it also picked someone killed in Afghanistan for cynical reasons... it being the relatively non-controversial current theater of war. "

this is a very local affair and I doubt that it is driven by pro war groups. they didn't pick Danny because he was killed in iraq, fate picked him when he was killed. it's not like the memorial is funded by the republican party.


"Practically speaking, Colorado is currently seething with conservative right-wing groups and churches"

I live here and I certainly wouldn't say that colorado is "seething" with conservatives.


there is an article in the rocky mountain news today about this controversy, and it includes a picture of the sculpture in clay being worked by sculptor Robert Henderson. it depicts Deitz crouching (as if resting), holding an assault rifle. In my oppinion, the stature is not violent, he is not depicted shooting or anything like that.

The making of memorial was funded by privately raised funds by Danny's parents, and was approved by the city with the regular process. Both Danny's parents and city officials were shocked at the sudden opposition to the memorial because it has been in planning for so long, the artricle said.

[Merlion]

This news story below gives the opinion from both sides. It also shows the artist's clay model, see below.

Line drawn in park over statue (http://www.denverpost.com/ci_5604793?source%253Dpoll.3AC27EC5B8BA9A6FF6D40C6 A78375503.html)

04/06/2007, Littleton - With its green lawn, jungle gym and picnic gazebo, Berry Park is an unlikely battlefield, but the local flap over the statue of a fallen war hero set to be placed here brewed into a national conflict Thursday.

The Internet, talk radio and cable news spread the word of some parents' concerns about the planned bronze sculpture of Navy SEAL Danny Dietz holding his automatic rifle.

"There's no middle ground here, and that's unfortunate," said Emily Cassidy, one of a handful of Littleton parents who say the statue with the gun should not be near three schools and two playgrounds at the southeast corner of South Lowell Boulevard and West Berry Avenue.

"We're continuing to try to spread our message," Cassidy said. "The message is not against Danny Dietz, his family or the war. It's location, location and the audience that will view it."

http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site36/2007/0405/20070405__20070406_A12_CD06DIETZ2~p1_200.JPG

Reached at home Thursday in Virginia Beach, Va., Patsy Dietz, Dietz's widow, said she sympathizes with the message that guns and schools shouldn't mix, especially in the community where the Columbine shootings took place.

"It's a parent's job, including these parents who are protesting, to teach their children the difference between two thugs who murder their classmates and a soldier who died fighting for their freedom," she said. "Danny represents every soldier and sailor who has fallen, and for them to take this stand, well, that's offensive to me." ....

[GlennT]

Thanks cooljamesx1 for the rare treasure of a calm, sane, unbiased, man-on-the-spot, non-propogandist-rhetoric-filled, level-headed perspective on this topic.

[fritchie]

Let me echo GlennT, Cooljamesx1. Focusing on abstractions istead of specific people and their choices probably always will lead in a poor direction.

[fused]

Maybe a little compromise is in order so that the entire community can be satisfied with the memorial to a local hero. If the sculpture isn't cast yet, redesign it without the offending weapon. You would think that people in Columbine have endured enough and would be sensitive to potential conflicts with such issues.

I personally think a better pose might be found, maybe standing at attention in full dress uniform or at ease, but he certainly doen't need to look ready for a fire fight.

Whomever is in charge has to take the initiative to resolve this issue or maybe the sculptor should just handle it personally... until all who will live with this memorial are satisfied with the results.

[evaldart]

I agree with fused. If the sculpture is about the honor, pride and sacrafice of a specific individual let the stance of the figure address that (which it presently is not). In its yet unfinished state, the sculptor seems to be a bit gun happy. The figure need much work - head too small, clothing barely rendered, hands not yet even considered. But the gun and the ammo is complete and perfect, (the most prominent feature of the composition). Wrong message for this project and this town. Its hard to tell but I would venture that the likeness is not well on its way either.I'm sure there is a way it can work but seems in need of major re-thinking.

[Blacksun]

Looking at the sculpture, I'll agree it needs more work, but the pose is perfect. The man in question was a soldier. The job of a soldier (Army, Navy, Marine, Air Force) is to kill people and break things. He looks ready to do either. I've seen, and knelt / squatted in, that exact pose more times than I can count.

And as for my comments on mandatory Military service...I'll go a step further, If you have not stood up and raised your hand to the oath to defend this country from all enemies, foreign and domestic, then picked up a weapon and stood your post, I don't think you should have the right to vote. I think you need to demonstrate your love of country before we put a ballot in your hand. Either that or designate all Military / Veterans as Tax Exempt for life.

Active duty military and honorably discharged military veterans get my respect automatically and fully. Everyone else has to earn it and the grading curve is pretty steep.

[anatomist1]

Looking at the sculpture, I'll agree it needs more work, but the pose is perfect. The man in question was a soldier. The job of a soldier (Army, Navy, Marine, Air Force) is to kill people and break things. He looks ready to do either. I've seen, and knelt / squatted in, that exact pose more times than I can count.

And as for my comments on mandatory Military service...I'll go a step further, If you have not stood up and raised your hand to the oath to defend this country from all enemies, foreign and domestic, then picked up a weapon and stood your post, I don't think you should have the right to vote. I think you need to demonstrate your love of country before we put a ballot in your hand. Either that or designate all Military / Veterans as Tax Exempt for life.

Active duty military and honorably discharged military veterans get my respect automatically and fully. Everyone else has to earn it and the grading curve is pretty steep.

On behalf of "everyone else", let me say that we are all broken up about this.

[JamesW]

Hey Blacksun - I couldn't agree with you more but wouldn't that mean Georgey Bush, Condoleeze Rice et al wouldn't be able to vote? Not necessarily a bad thing. But I also reckon -
If you haven't ploughed a field you don't have a right to food
If you've never nursed the sick you don't have a right to health care
If you've never taught a class you don't have a right to an education
If you've never built a house you don't have a right to shelter

Oops this is all sounding just a little Pol Pot-esque

Lets here it for the Dead Kennedys as they strike up another rousing chorus of 'Holiday Inn Cambodia' !

Caio Commrade!
Mad Jim

[Merlion]

... The job of a soldier (Army, Navy, Marine, Air Force) is to kill people and break things....
Do you mean, to kill if necessary? There is of course a big big difference between 'the job is to kill people', and 'the job is to kill people if necessary'.

[WeiMingKai]

Hi Blacksun (and everybody),

Robert Heinlein's book 'Starship Troopers' features a fully militarized society with full citizenship (voting rights, 'respect') only available to those who have served. It was quite convenient to the plot that such a violence oriented civilization encounter a hideous and incomprehensible alien menace ... I wont spoil the story by telling you how things turn out but I will say that when you have been taught that a Hammer (force) is the ultimate tool for solving problems, then all problems get re-defined as Nails.

This line here:
"Active duty military and honorably discharged military veterans get my respect automatically and fully. Everyone else has to earn it and the grading curve is pretty steep."
sounds an awful lot like prejudice. Too bad most of the rest of the world has an uphill climb to be deemed worth listening to.

Sure it is patriotic and honorable to love your country and volunteer to defend it against its enemies 'foreign and domestic' but when you have been trained for a job where you 'kill people and break things' how soon do you wonder who exactly gets to tag people and things with the 'enemy' label so that soldiers can then do their 'job' on these 'targets'? Is a citizens job to continue their role as obedient soldier or is it to question who, what, and why the people in command of the soldiers are designating as enemies and why should it be that only soldiers get a meaningful say in that questioning (voting rights) - is it possible that anyone equipped with access to information about these 'enemies' and information about their own lives (like what kind of threat does this supposed enemy REASONABLY pose to me or my countrymen and is killing people and breaking stuff the reasonable solution?) could question the persons in command of the military?

I would think about that oath soldiers take to defend their country means their entire country, even the parts with people who disagree with them about if a particular statue is a glorification of violence or does honor to a fallen soldier. Honoring ones country with service is admirable, but isn't a license to start redefining the country to include just those people who we respect. Diversity of outlook and opinion may sometimes be annoying but it is also the foundation of this country, think of it as plywood - the grain goes in multiple directions and makes for a stronger whole.

The statues pose is realistic, even menacing, like the predatory caution employed by a warrior who seeks to minimize the target he presents to unseen eyes while simultaneously searching for his target, and the weapon is large (realistic in scale or not, the weapon appearance says 'extreme lethality' ). I can see how the overall impression is that of 'violence about to happen' rather than 'selfless devotion to duty and country'. Navy Seals (if the Discovery channel war porn commercials about them are to be believed) are all about extreme lethality, devastating power concentrated into a small group of men - so the statue is probably a fair representation.

Real soldiers probably look like that statue design - but is the message of a monument about real people or idealized tribute to concepts like duty, honor, sacrifice, and patriotism - and should a monument design emphasize those concepts with its imagery rather than 'this dude could kick some ass!'. Maybe I am way off in thinking monuments are supposed to serve as eulogy for the best and most admirable qualities displayed by those citizens that sacrificed everything and their real purpose is to be a billboard message for 'join the military and kick ass!'. Mostly because we are living in an age where sacrificing for ones community and country is an increasingly obsolete idea replaced by alienation, paranoia, mistrust, and fear directed by Americans at other Americans - 'kicking ass' might be a more compelling reason to sign up than 'serving ones country'.

what do you think?

[Aaron Schroeder]

Blacksun, after reading your post I knew you'd get a visceral response. I identify with your stance and prejudice, I would have made an excellent soldier, natural selection made me to excell at armed conflict. However as an artist I have become accustomed to self determination and the notion of being subserviant to the will of another seems unfathomable. I think about the battle of Verdun during ww1 and the needless sacrifice of 900,000 lives,the execution of the traitors over thier noncompliance to certain suicide and for what ? Would you have dutifully added your body to the body count ( I sure you would have ) or would you have questioned the wisdom of your leaders and objected ? What would Jesus have done ? They say Freedom is not free but which are you for real Obiedient or Free. When Your leader askes you to kill your self for corporate profits and the life of luxury for a set chosen few will you comply or will the sculptor within stand up and say " I got better things to do with my life ". A group of soldiers that disobey stupid orders gets my respect more than those that follow them without question.

[cooljamesx1]

blacksun, holy cow you're nuts. hasen't history taught us that unquestioning loyalty only leads to problems. your only justification for mandatory service is because people should love their country. What if you lived in nazi germany? would you feel the same way then? maybe bush is exterminating the jews secretly, who knows? as citizens we need to keep our eyes open. I pay my membership fees to the government, and I therefore get the right to vote. As long as volunteer military is sufficient why instigate mandatory service? You would end up wasting a ton of tax dollars training and equiping everyone in the us who turns eighteen each year only to have them sit around with no war to fight. that doesn't make any sense.

to james w and all this 'you should build a house in order to have shelter' crap, we would all be a lot worse off economicly if this idea were put to practice. Specialization makes the production of goods much more efficient and through trading we all get better quality goods at a lower price. If we all went out and built our own houses and grew our own food, we would have shittier houses and less food. To say that 'you should build a house in order to have shelter' undermines the heart of economy and why we all live more comfortablly

as to the pose of the sculpture, it is based off the last photograph taken of dietz before he was killed, and it wasn't made to make him look ready to kill someone

[JamesW]

Hey CoolJamesx1 - my comments were satirical (or at least meant to be) to illustrate the ridiculousness of the notion that "you have to have fought for your country to deserve the right to vote". Believe me those thoughts are light years from my real views.

Speaking of real views - I think there is a real sense in the community that no matter how ill concieved the conflict, all honour & respect to the service men & women who fight them on behalf of our governments. And that is how it should be - the type of treatment handed out to many returning Vietnam Veterans was a tradgedy & travesty that must never happen again.

Back to a little closer to the thread - bear with me while a describe one of the most moving war memorials I encountered. I was out driving in the country through farming districts & small 'one horse towns' as we call them. I stopped for lunch in a little place just a service station/general store, pub & half a dozen houses. I grabbed a sandwich & thought I'd eat it in the small park across the road. There was a large shady tree & it was on of those hot, still days with just the occasional crow breaking the silence. When I finished eating I noticed a fairly plain WW1 war memorial - a life sized soldier on a plynth standing to attention gazing straight ahead, fire arm at his side. I think it may have been cast cement painted white. I started to read the names on the the side of the plynth. It ran something like this:
John Smith 46 years
David Smith 24 years
James Smith 22 years
Andrew Smith 19 years
And so on family after family, fathers & sons wiped out - clearly devastating this small farming district.
As a stood there in the heat, dust & silence the enormity of the tradgedy was almost overwhelming.
Lets honour the fallen (and all those who fought) but not glorify war.

James

[Tired Iron]

Somehow I think a statue of Deitz at 12 years of age with a lead rope and a calf from his 4H days ,and a plaque below reading " In honor of Danny Deitz, local hero, citizen, brother , son, huband father etc. Navy SEAL , that was killed in action , such and such date.. Afghanistan." Would be a much more acceptable rendition. Something to that effect anyway... the 4H thing was just an example.. he could be holding a model airplane or a GI Joe... Point is he was more than a SEAL.

[GlennT]

A group of soldiers that disobey stupid orders gets my respect more than those that follow them without question.

An army with that ethic would be about as effective as the modern French in winning a battle. They would have to be bailed out by a real army.
Probably most battlefield orders would be considered stupid, as in," What? you want me to charge head first toward that ridge where the enemy is firing at me from concealed gun emplacements? What are you, nuts?"

War is stupid from the comfort of a philosophical perspective. Hence any orders coming from a system of warfare will be perceived as stupid from that viewpoint.

To be a true soldier one must suspend such judgement and be willing to sacrifice one's own life if necessary for the survival of the group, cause, nation, etc. One must trust in the wisdom, even when evidence is lacking, of the chain of command. And one must be instantly obedient, because the lives of everyone else on your side depend on it.

Warfare has its own rules for engagement. In that context, the time for a soldier to exercise independant moral judgement is when commands go beyond the rules of conduct, such as the intentional harming of non-combatants who pose no threat.

If someone believes that as a soldier they need to second guess every command by their superior, they should not volunteer to be a soldier in the all-volunteer US armed forces. If one were drafted against ones own will, there would be a stronger case for such behavior, but it would still lead to chaos and ineffectiveness in the field.

I am grateful that I have the luxury of not having to make these tough choices, and that my role as an artist is to create beauty rather than destroy in order to protect. But I admire the courage and sacrifice of those who have put their lives on the line for our defense and security.

GlennT

[cooljamesx1]

james w- sorry about that I sort of thought that was the case. I guess sarcasm doesn't carry as well in written form. peace.

[JamesW]

CoolJX1 - no worries, peace 2U2, J (will pm)

[Blacksun]

My opinion still remains, I think the best thing for this country would be if you haven't "sadddled up" to protect the country, you wouldn't get the right to have a say in how the country runs. And yep, if that was the case, the reality, then Condie couldn't vote, Hilary couldn't vote, Teddy Kennedy couldn't vote, Al Sharpton, Dick Cheney, and Jesse Jackson couldn't vote. But George Bush could, John Kerry could, John McCain could, I could, and my local bicycle riding, whistling window washer could, The retired female marine that lives down the street could, and my gay (former) brother-in-law could. Unlikely companions, but all voluntarily took that oath. All voluntarily offered to sacrifice their lives if required to defend the country.

And debate it all you wish, but you heard it here first....4 year tour of duty mandatory military service in the USA will be a reality within 10 years...just after the reinstated draft that fails to get the number of troops we will need. The current little actions in the Middle East are just the warm-up and a proving ground for new weapons systems command & control structures, and ground tactics.

Just my opinion folks....free speech and all that jazz... :)

[cooljamesx1]

well blacksun all I can say is that your militarism is frightening, as is you dedication to your veiwpoint despite reality. but to each his own.

[Merlion]

The job of a soldier (Army, Navy, Marine, Air Force) is to kill people and break things.
Do you mean, to kill if necessary? There is of course a big big difference between 'the job is to kill people', and 'the job is to kill people if necessary'.
Blacksun: Either you did not notice my question above, or you saw it and decided not to reply.

I wonder which one is it.

Actually it is important to the whole world, that even this statement 'to kill if necessary' has to be well debated and agreed upon. I am not just talking about one country.

[Blacksun]

Well sure, "if necessary". Necessary being determined by the immediate tactical situation or the long term strategic view. The Dietz sculpture pose is the definition of that "if necessary". He is at rest, waiting behind a wall or some other cover / concealment, waiting to see if it is "necessary" for him to deploy. But the fact remains, that is the job - to kill and break things. They don't arm soldiers with wiffle bats. Soldiers are taught to fire at "center of mass" of a target - to make a killing wound.

My personal militaristic world view is just a few years ahead of public acknowledgement / acceptance. The democrats in congress are beginning to make noises about Darfur and how it is "necessary" to deploy troops to the region (in just the past few days the clamor has begun in earnest), Iran is going to keep pushing the buttons of our allies, and we will get sucked into Iran. South Korea & Japan (allies again) are both beginning to make new noises about North Korea and our mutual assistance pacts (with China looking over the border). Then we can turn our vision south to the communists and facists crawling South America. We have two choices...Isolationism or Imperialism....my guess is imperialism. My opinion is that the Pax Americana is coming. :D

Last prediction for this post - In an attempt to avoid the inevitable reinstated draft, Congress (within the next few years) will pass a new immigration bill that will provide for automatic citizenship for all foreign nationals that volunteer for and honorably complete a 4 year hitch in the US military. A stopgap measure at best.

[dilida]

Tired Iron, You make a good point that he was more than a SEAL. But he died as one, and I think that's what his family and others are honoring, the sacrifice that he and others make. Those kids at Columbine were murdered by a very sick aspect of our society. The objection to this sculpture is what would it do to kids who view it without adult input. I think we have to be very honest with our kids about the world they live in. I see the deaths at Columbine and the deaths of soldiers in combat as two very different things.

lisa

[GlennT]

Lisa;

Thanks for making a great point. I was bothered by the logic that provoked your response, but did not address it at the time. It would be perhaps analagous to not allowing automobile traffic to occur within view of a highschool because some teens from the school were killed in an automobile accident, so you don't want teens to be influenced by the sight of cars into thinking that they are safe.

It is an amazing problem with our age that we consider the need to change history or conceal historical fact in order to protect kids from a viewpoint that does not mesh with the current thinking ( oxymoron ) . The idea that a statue of a man who is honored for a service that has been traditionally a valued and honorable one throughout American history, as well as the preceeding 10,000 or so years, should suddenly be considered potentially harmful to a child because of possible associations with senseless violence...wow! What a turn of perspective in my lifetime. To be consistent, they should direct the same enthusiastic meddling towards stopping actual sources of senseless violence directed at kids minds. Computer and video games, gansta rap, and some hollywood movies and television shows come to mind.

In the world that I grew up in as a kid, there was no adult supervision between after school and dinner. We neighborhood kids organized our own sports, went exploring where we wanted, and were exposed to any number of things that our parents would not have approved of. We were told not to talk to strangers, but the parents weren't worried about us being kidnapped or attacked by sexual predators. And we were able to form our own ideas with a balance of parental influence and exposure to the world. I can't complain about the results from this approach.

Today, it is rare to find children in American suburbs involved in unstructured play. And these mothers who want to shield their children from a " violent image" of a soldier in my mind have lost their grip on reality while at the same time trying to put too large of a grip on the opportunity for their children to grow up understanding the world.

GlennT

[Landseer]

The mother and her group of protestors are morons :p . They sleep comfy, cozy every night because there are young (and old) men that are willing to pick up a weapon and wade into the fight when needed. The problem is, most of the times this stuff is NOT necessary, and is done against the "enemy" of the MOMENT we choose to bully or blackmail into doing what *WE* want- WW2 was an excepion- WE were attacked first, but wars like Vietnam started on a pretex (Google Tonkin Bay incident and the facts that came out about how it was staged in order to justify the invasion) Iraq is yet another example and now Bush has his gun sites on Iran to invade NEXT.
In many cases, had our guys not been PUT in harms way for nothing they would be alive now, we have NO business over in Iraq, we didn't belong in Vietnam or elsewhere where we were not wanted.

Let's not forget the hundreds of people held in Guantanimo with NO charges for years as war criminals, and all the rest of the scandals including some of the scandalous things US troops are doing over there NOW that you can see in various u-tube and ogrish.com clips.

Sorry, but anyone going over to Iraq is NOT fighting for the US or to keep the US "safe" the war there is a total FARCE and has been from the start. It was forced on us by an out of control, control nut, dry drunk by the name of George BUSH who wanted to hit anyone he could after 9/11 in a blind rage. Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9/11 while Saudi Arabia is connected yet still our "friends"

This is in fact making another attack here MORE inevitable by all the hate and anger we caused thanks to BUSH and his scandalous Nazi-like regime.

The Iraqi guy who gets his car or truck literally RUN OVER in traffic by a US tank driven by troops video taping it for kicks while laughing is now 100% an ENEMY of the US- I've seen plenty of clips showing US tanks running over people's vehicles in traffic, Hum vees literally smashing their way thru rush hour traffic destroying dozens of citizen's vehicles etc- and every one of those very angry people are a few dozen more who want us DEAD because of it.
No bid contracts to Haliburton? millions of dollars in cash missing? billions going over there while OUR schools, roads, bridges, health care, elder care and all else falls apart?
The right wingers opposed to abortion and gay marriage are the dumb sheeple who voted BUSH in not once but TWICE for the agenda on those two issues.

There are heros and then there are HEROS, there is justified war and there is UN justified war, in both cases the men and women involved are the ones caught in the middle of it- pawns of corrupt Govts and power-hungry assholes in office.

Some of the callers to a California talk show host I do volunteer work for are positively scary, one red neck sounding guy got on the show and said he's tired of paying $3 a gallon for gas and that America has always been about getting in your car and DRIVING where you want, and that we should bomb the hell out of the Middle East, take over, and simply TAKE their oil so we can have CHEAP gas! This is the mentality the Bush regime and this illegal invasion is instilling in people.

So according to this red neck, and I know there's plenty more like him sparring for a WAR just to be bad asses, we should just invade where we like and TAKE whatever we want because in America we always had CHEAP gas. Forget blaming the US OIL companies who are making record profits, forget Haliburton who is moving their headquarters now overseas now that they have loads of our CASH thanks to BUSH.

The figure need much work - head too small, clothing barely rendered, hands not yet even considered. But the gun and the ammo is complete and perfect, (the most prominent feature of the composition). Wrong message for this project and this town. Its hard to tell but I would venture that the likeness is not well on its way either.I'm sure there is a way it can work but seems in need of major re-thinking.
I totally agree, the gun in the first thing you see like a red flag, it's HUGE, it's focal point is right in the center, it's very detailed.

[robertpulley]

Boy, I find this discussion to be really interesting, but fear that it has strayed from the original question. Maybe not though. I personally find the pursuit of aesthetic truth to be the most pure expression of my spiritual reality (confused as that might be). We have questions of child rearing, communal security, dedication and sacrifice, moral obligation both to the individual conscience and to the smooth operation of the national order. We're deep in the deep stuff in this conversation. To the extent I can, I've felt a real connection and identification with this sculptor's community lately. A kind of pride in belonging to this friendly group of seekers and doers. I hate to see it marred by polarizing rhetoric. But it does get the excitement level up!

I was just in the studio looking at a group of new sculptures and filling out the descriptive 4x5 cards I keep on all work: (date, size, sketch of work, title and price; later, hopefully, who sold and bought it and what they paid, or alternativeley, why I destroyed it). I was staring at this one big, stocky, massive piece and trying to come up with a title that might express to me something of how I feel about it. Its not gracefull; it looks old and battle or time scarred but tough and strong. I think I called it "Gathered Power". I look at it and think of the soldiers who came back from Vietnam (the war of my era, in which I did not serve, by the way) or the Middle East or in fact those who have lived a long life and suffered many indignities, losses, disappointments and now carry the scars outside and inside while their spirit drives them to keep on living with a determined fierceness.

It seems the human condition. We in the US have it pretty easy on an international scale of living. Certainly those who experience war up close carry more scars than most but nobody gets out of this alive and those who loose children, battle disease, suffer the decay of the body and mind, economic hardship, etc. etc. know suffering too.

As for the sculpture of the soldier. I wouldn't get too excited about it if it were in my town, neither aesthetically nor morally, but I wouldn't dismiss the concerned parents as "morons" either. I find name calling and hatred as too easy reactions. Thats what gets us into shooting matches anyway.

[Aaron Schroeder]

Blacksun.......beyond differences in opinion, you're this forums military insider, perhaps you can give this community some valuable insight into what is going on in Iraq and how the soldiers who are serving there feel about thier service in that theatre. Have you been to Iraq ? Polled the opinions of those who have been there ? Is to much attention being paid to event there or not enough ? Who represents the greatest threat to our freedoms and security here in america ? What longterm strategic plan will ensure that we continue to hold the upper hand in world affairs ? And beyond all of that and back to sculpture, if you died in the service of this country and a community desired to errect a sculpture in your honor, how would you choose to be depicted ? A question that perhaps every soldier should consider since a memorial maybe ( like the one being addressed in this thread ) produced in thier honor. Any advice for the sculptors on this forum who may be commissioned to produce those sculptures and memorials ? Do you prefer the figurative monuments like the one in this thread or the nonrepresentational memorials like Mia Lyns (sp?) Vietnam Memorial. As a soldier speaking on behalf of soldiers which approach does greater service to honoring those who have made the ultimate sacrifice ? Alot of question I know but I would rather learn from your views than challenge them ? I think you can teach us alot.

[Landseer]

perhaps you can give this community some valuable insight into what is going on in Iraq and how the soldiers who are serving there feel about thier service in that theatreA friend who recently went to Ireland reported that the news media over there is FAR more open about the war and events than the US media which is highly filtered, biased and watered down. CBS news now has dozens of lnks to the "Christian Science Monitor" articles, editorials and more, what's that say to me?: right wing infiltration into CBS.

The US media is now largely controlled by a shrinking handfull of mega conglomerates, and independent news outlets are being steam rolled over- Aljazeerah.info (based in the us, run by a doctor) was one till some rednecks decided to attack the editor due to his views on the war and began contacting his employer, making threats and more.
This was the kind of news outlet that SHOWED the caskets coming back that the Bush regime wanted hidden from the media, the kind that showed the forged, false documents etc.

Recently it was reported by US media that "a few thousand" in Iraq protested our occupation there, when in fact the NON-filtreed photos and news from outside the US shows TENS OF THOUSANDS of angry protestors.
The numbers difference means the Bush regime can chalk up "a few thousand" as an abberation, that the Iraq people want us to STAY and love us, and that just a few hate us, when the facts are massive numbers- the majority there want us OUT and dead. The watered down reports on the former makes it easier to "stay the course" while the latter makes it clear we are wasting our time and money- dump the place and let it collapse as it ill or won't.

Who represents the greatest threat to our freedoms and security here in america ?George Bush and his regime, it's clear with all the scandals, illegal wiretaps and much more.


What longterm strategic plan will ensure that we continue to hold the upper hand in world affairs ?
Mind our own business, take care of OUR people here first, OUR economy first, stay out of the Israel/Palestinian conflict and stop bullying every other country. 9/11 was the reaction to what we did and do over there, since we have not changed that there will be another 9/11 attack without question. This logic of hit them over there before they come here is sheer insanity when Iraq had zippo to do with 9/11 in the first place.
We have become OBSESSED with Iraq, for over 4 years the daily media is IRAQ IRAQ, every newspaper and magazine is IRAQ IRAQ, it's to the point where someone FARTS over there we hear about it!

When we had the Soviet Union in power it had the tendency to keep US in check to a large degree, but now with the fall of them OUR Govt has gone on this insane power trip, we are now the most hated nation on the planet wheras right after 9/11 we had a huge outpouring of sympathy and goodwill- all totally eradicated by BUSH and his strike blindly now in revenge ask questions later policy.

[Blacksun]

Sure, I'll try to answer what I can... I have not been to Iraq...my time of active military service was a couple dacades ago. I do have an active current line into the military establishment, and talk with with active and returning military personnel on a regular basis. The general feeling I get is that we either need to ramp up and get rid of the bad guys, or get the hell out of the country. The current "peace-keeping, democracy building" mission is bulls**t and doomed to fail because of the underlying religious / civil war within Iraq. We are trying to build an artificial peaceful society out of a 35 / 65 mix of people that absolutely have no tolerance for each other and no long term coopertaive history or common belief system they can turn to. In the name of democracy and tolerance we allow the bad guys to continue operations, continue stirring up the populace, and continue trying to kill each other and our troops. Personal opinion, we should do a mass rapid exodus from the country and let them revert to type. But, while the CinC says we stay, the boys and girls will stay and do as much of their job as they can. I, and they, only hope there is a bigger picture that will reveal itself down the line.

Who is /are the biggest threat "we" face - militant islamics, wahhabbist sect. How do we effextively deal with that? Crush it by crushing those who espouse it.

No one will ever erect a monument to me :p , so my preference is irrelevant. But I admire all monuments. Monuments to warriors, monuments to simple everyday men or women that stood up to an injustice, or helped bring healing to a sick child. Monuments are generally to that which is best in us as humans, and how can you not admire them. The Wall is powerful and evocative...I think it was perfect before the started putting up the extraneous 3 soldiers, and Nurses monument, and the flagpole, etc.. For all time powerful, I think the Korean War Monument in DC is the best, especially in the early morning when fog is wrapping the figures, or on rainy / snowy days. I also like the multitude of anonymous sculptures to local heroes that dot the South. It has nothing to do with the skill level of the artist, nor the reulting physical sculpture, but it has everything to do with the caring of a locality that took the time to organize a memorial to an ideal.

Peace be upon us all. :)

[GlennT]

I have a friend serving in Iraq, and also have heard interviews with soldiers in the field and wounded. Unlike Landseer's idea of the US media, I see the mainstream media going after every effort to put a bad face on our presence in Iraq, and ignore any positive news. Not that it is all rosy either, but a balance in what is found newsworthy is quite missing.

My friend, as well as the interviewees I have heard, want to stay and finish the job. Some have reenlisted multiple times, including some who have been wounded. Others wounded are sorry that they are not able to go back with their outfit and provide the help and support they we giving. These young men and women have a lot more courage and fortitude than the average youth who has not served.

My friend is involved in the supply end of things, and he tells of the little victories never described in the news, about efforts of rebuilding, schools opening, and Iraqis who want us there until their country is secure. these are regular people who just want to go about their normal lives, and they are not hoping for a state of chaos that would insue were we to leave before securing the country and giving the Iraqi government time to train and build up a credible and effective secuirty force.

Whether it was a good idea or not to go into the war is a fine discussion for history lessons, but since we are there now, we had better finish the job in a victorious manner and not prematurely withdraw to allow a bloodbath, with the terroist-type elements taking over and using Iraq as another staging ground for their attacks. The democrats criticized the Bush administration for not providing enough troops to get the job done, and said change was needed. So finally, Bush got the message and put in place a new general and a mandate for a troop surge, and what happens? The democrats try to hamstring the operation. It is hard enough trying to sort out this mess without all of the politiking second guessers in congress trying to run the war from Washington, and hoping for failure in order to win more power at the next election cycle.

[Landseer]

I have a friend serving in Iraq, and also have heard interviews with soldiers in the field and wounded. Unlike Landseer's idea of the US media, I see the mainstream media going after every effort to put a bad face on our presence in Iraq, and ignore any positive news.
Mainstream media is right wing dominated and putting a good face on the war, all tidy, neat and going well, meanwhile when you read the real truth and see the unedited material you see what REALLY is going on and how hated we are over there.
The US media won't show dismembered bodies, blood or anything "squeemish", the non us media WILL.

WHAT positive news? there is none, it's totally negated and wiped out by the daily death, destruction and mayhem.
There's clips showing US troops shooting dogs for fun and entertainment, including one they threw rocks at who was injured, there's clips of US troops teaching Iraq kids English curse words and slang for kicks- minor yes, but it breeds more resentment and hate when those kids eventually learn that what they were taught by smiling toops; "Fuck Iraq we are towel headed idiots" was a joke on them. This stuff puts us in a BAD light, not to mention the cases where US troops killed or raped unarmed civilians (some have been charged)

We have LOST the battle and lost the war, and lost the American people who voted for CHANGE in November and are still getting the same Bush krap. Now Bush is fumbling about without a clue like a Texas redneck idiot who refuses to accept the point of no return and is all to happy to drive us into bankruptcy as long as he saves face with a "victory" what ever that means over there!

There have been several "surges" and every one of them was met with MORE violence.


My friend is involved in the supply end of things, and he tells of the little victories never described in the news, about efforts of rebuilding, schools opening, and Iraqis who want us there until their country is secure. Meanwhile OUR schools fall apart for lack of funding, OUR roads, bridges and infrastructure fall apart for lack of money, 250,000 Americans estimated to be homeless living on the streets, veterans treated like crap with substandard medical care and Bush acting surprised at the recent revelations. Agent Orange anyone? remember how the Govt DENIED any responsibility for it and fought tooth and nail against claims by vets for medical problems from it? EPA and others declaring the trade center dust all but harmless and allowed thousands to dig through and sort the debris for months, a percentage of whom have already DIED from lung problems, others having health problems and on disability.


The democrats criticized the Bush administration for not providing enough troops to get the job done, and said change was needed. So finally, Bush got the message and put in place a new general and a mandate for a troop surge, and what happens? The democrats try to hamstring the operation. Not the Democrates- the PEOPLE who voted in November to oust the Republican domination and wanted change- to get OUT of this costly useless illegal fiasco with no end, but see Bush tells the media he still hasn't gotten the one hundred MILLION dollars he "asked for" with "no strings", this guy is the most aggogant, snide pissant I have ever seen in office and should be impeeched and removed along with Cheney. They absolutely refuse to listen to ANYONE, even his own advisors, the committees - anyone and everyone, it's all about what BUSH wants even if it's totally screwed up.
Gas is $3 a gallon now and not even the driving season yet- Clinton threatened and would have held investigations into those windfall profits and every time that came up the gas prices went back down, but Bush comes from a family of oil types even if he personally failed at every business he ever ran- they went into demise or bankruptcy under his hand just as we are heading under his hand.
The national debt is almost 10 trillion dollars- just about DOUBLE in just 6 years- what it was under Clinton when it was starting to DECREASE.

I'll be glad when this dry drunk is OUT of office, a total failure in every way, even his poll numbers are down near Nixon's when he fell and the majority of Americans have said they are against the war and that it's NOT going well, was a mistake etc.

[Aaron Schroeder]

Thanks All, I sincerely appreciate your posts, we all have our biases but I think we all benefit from hearing them. As for Iraq, they have a hard painful road ahead of them. I liken what they are going through to our own civil war and expect that dispite thier troubles, time and neccessity will see them through. Whether we pull out sooner or later they will have to attend to themselves and will have to impliment a healing process of one sort or another. I've been thinking about the notion that one man's insurgent is another man's freedom fighter. Is there any room to honor those that fight us. I know that if an overwhelming force invaded this country that the blacksuns and glennts would resist in what ever way they could to whatever end. Dispite the oppositions objectional means, should we honor those that work against us. In many respects they are the underdogs and even though I appose them on many levels I can't help but identify with thier situation. How are the Iraqi people going to reconcile thier differences ? Do you all see momuments errected to them ? If so, has anyone considered any ideas? I think about the images of the Tineman Square guy that apposed the tank and there's just something about the little guy on the ground standing up against overwhelming opposition that I think is very moving that anyone can identify with. I think heros have fallen on both sides. Do you think a monument to the opposition may be part of the reconciliation process. I've visited the Andrew Jackson monument, it's a giant obolisk like the one in washington. It honors the south. We did it.....How about the folks in Iraq ? I ask because if so then a sculptor like us is going to be thinking and working on monuments that will stimulate and provoke people for years to come. As a sculptor watching the images of people toppling the statue of hussien, I can't help but wonder what will be raised in it's place. Any thoughts on the future sculpture projects of Iraq and the healing reconciliation process ? I'm thinking some one like us is going to be part of the process and they might benefit from our thoughts.

[Landseer]

I've been thinking about the notion that one man's insurgent is another man's freedom fighter.Exactly right, what we call "insurgents" are fighting against unwanted INVADERS- *us* the infidels, the non muslims, the big satan. Guaranteed- if the Chinese invaded the US to change our Govt and remove our president you would have all kinds of people coming out of the woodwork and doing any and every trick they could to take out as many of the invaders as possible with tricks, dirty tactics, roadside bombs, shooting at them from tree tops like deer, poisoning their drinking water supply, infiltration and you name it.

I can't say I blame any of them over there for taking invaders to THEIR country out, it's their country and we are unwanted there.

From today's news, showing just how we are "winning" the war there;

A car bomb blasted through a busy bus station near one of Iraq's holiest shrines in Karbala, killing at least 56, and a suicide car bomb killed 10 people on a major bridge in Baghdad — the second attack on a span over the Tigris river this week.

[anatomist1]

That stuff about the plight of bystanders is just standard stuff. The biggest mistake with Iraq was strategic, and that mistake was sticking around. The US should have wiped out the central gov't, executed Hussein, and simply left. Turn it over to the UN or whatever.

They have been caught in an ongoing quagmire politically, because bad news keeps happening almost as fast as they can spin it. No matter how bad the press or opinion polls, smashing and evacuating would be over and in the past - much easier to do the damage control. I think they could have come up with reasons why it was necessary and even convinced about as many people it was part of a long term plan for middle eastern democracy, or whatever pretexts they were going with, as they have as it is.

It would probably have helped them even more in terms of antagonizing radical middle eastern groups, along with a second, similar smash and leave on Iran, which they could probably be in the middle of by now. After the Iran got spanked, islamist terrorists would be provoked into a frenzy, insuring that the ultimate key to lasting power for the primary interests and cronies of the Bush Admin would come to pass: another terrorist attack or several on US soil. Ideally, they would arrange for some terrorists to steal an ex-Soviet nuke for the purpose.

Once they made that happen, they could push the fear and war on terrorism stuff to the next level. This would make developments like Blacksun's proposals possible, along with other even more important ones, like funding and growing their extreme Christian and neocon base, possibly getting rid of presidential term limits or declaring an indefinte term extension of some kind, completely dismantling public education and further reducing restrictions on media and energy monopolies, maybe even declaring martial law...

They could be sitting pretty right now, and a few of them know it, it's just that as a unit, they aren't quite competent enough to pull it off. I suspect the real problem is Bush himself. They needed him for the name recognition and other strategic campaign reasons, but he's turned out to be more of a liability than they hoped. I think he's so simple-minded that he can't handle this level of Machiavellian truth about what's really going on, so they have to find ways of propagandizing it to him that make sense in his own good vs. evil cartoon mythology. He asserts himself stubbornly at odd times and screws up their plans. If it were anyone below Cheney causing the problems, they could have arranged for a tragic accident or two long ago and things would be on track by now.

[Aaron Schroeder]

The reason we are still there is that we are trying to broker a deal where we get 75 percent of all thier oil revenue. It was and still is about oil...... not even for us but for the saudies. This whole thing is all about money. I'm no more into conspiracy theories than the next guy but people have been conspiring and manipulating and we've all had the wool pulled over our eyes. When the soldiers of this country wake up to the fact that they have been used and abused like some cheap whore they are going to be so mad and so vengeful........ I almost feel sorry for anyone in bed with this crooked administration.......cause they are going to get it big time. The only reason it has'nt blown up is that so many people are involved on so many levels.....that the truth would bring America to it's knees. We are talking about a house of cards so wide and so tall.......that if it topples.......we're all screwed. Our only hope is that we all continue to buy the lie and play along......it's just tragic..... and pathetic. The pain, the sacrifice.......for what ? So a set secret few can lord it over us all. The betrayal goes beyond any thing in history......... I'm hooken up with the amish......they saw it coming long ago.

[GlennT]

The dominant media is "right wing" ? We are there to take their oil ? Conspiracies, conspiracies everywhere.... "Bush is evil" ... terrorists who blow up innocent civilians, their own people, are freedom fighters?

If you guys cannot even be intellectually honest about reality, I have no further desire to waste my time trying to have a serious discussion with you on this topic. I cannot even get worked up about these absurd statements because demagoging an issue is not an effort to engage in discovering truth.

[Landseer]

The reason we are still there is that we are trying to broker a deal where we get 75 percent of all thier oil revenue.
I totally agree with you, and evidence over the last 4 years has proven it's about money, oil and power not "liberating" the Iraqi people.
Remember- Bush invaded, we found NO WMD's not a one, the aluminum tubes they once found were declared NOT nuke related, the document on Sadumb trying to buy uranium was forged and Bush knew this but kept the BS going anyway.
Then when things got into a quagmire with no end, and people asking why were there- he shifted gears and then it was suddenly we were there to "liberate the Iraqi people from a tiranical dictator", then once he was captured and Bin Laden who was THE focus suddenly faded away, only to be trotted out periodically by the media when things got tough- questions asked or people in the Bush regime investigated etc. mysteriously a Bin Laden "tape" would suddenly hit the media and the whole country here stops to listen to a mindless nut rant on with supposed translated statements none of us truly know were even his statements correctly translated.

Now after all this and a huge reward, and no one willing to turn Laden over, Bush sort of sidelines his quest to get him- basically we failed to find ONE moron when we had him initially in our radar and he got away.

Don't forget the periodic non specified "terror alerts" Bush became famous for- the red, yellow and green levels, remember how almost every week as a diversion the media and Bush would tell us that "inteligence" reported non specified 'terrorist chatter' (whatever the hell THAT was) and to be on the look out and alert for anything out of the ordinary, but just continue shopping.
The game there was terrorize the public into a fear, and then put forth the continued idea that in order to be SAFE here we have to go hit "terrorists" halfway around the globe at random, trouble is the 9/11 attackers are all dead, they came from Egypt and were NOT connected to Iraq.

Also in Afghanistan where this started, remember how just before 9/11 the media here was full of the news about the Taliban's destruction of those ancient statues on the mountain side and how outraged everyone was and how people in the US offered money and experts, to restore, repair the statues etc, and that this pissed off the Taliban greatly who cited the issues that we care more about statues than dying children there. I rememeber that hitting the media and was also cited as one of contributing (though minor) issues of why 9/11 was ordered in the FIRST place.

9/11 was not some random attack as Bush claimed, and tried to claim it was because they "hate our freedom," that was total BS and Laden went on camera half a dozen times explaining exactly why he ordered the attacks- and yet Bush refuses to acknowlege that fact. Laden is a nut yes, but when a nut describes or explains his motives of something, it's a good idea to listen. His "cause" or reasons are documented in the various clips- our involvement over there with the Israel/Palestine war, our providing weapons to one side to kill the other, our failed foreign policies, bullying of other nations, blackmail, embargos, threats, our failed 35 year thing against Cuba and a long list of things.

There were also highly unwanted Christian missionaries who were caught over there in a MUSLIM country trying to convert people, now that is just one thing you NEVER try to do over there because you can wind up DEAD- people there take great offense just as we would if the Chinese came here and tried to convert us to Communism.

This whole situation stinks, not a month doesnt go by some new Bush cronie isn't investigated or something nasty comes out- Gonzales is the latest crook, Bush has stacked the Supreme court and other courts with anti abortion right wing judge-buddies, his goal is to turn the US and the Middle East into a theocracy with Christian zealots, and to invade Iran NEXT which is why he ordered the surge as well as refusing to set a time to withdraw- he has the men and all else ready to invade with a Tonkin Bay incident like before, some pretex to sell us another war and thereby create in his own warped mind- his own pre-destinied armageddon straight from the bible he reads and worships.
That's been his plan, at least till his party was all but wiped out in November and with the scandals that hit the media almost every week.

Anyone remember Rove was involved with Haliburton big time before the war? odd how his company gets those cushey no bid contracts and make millions off expenses which is why they dump $150,000 trucks that only have flat tires- they get a percentage of the expense- new $150,000 truck = a percent of that goes in their pocket.
Now they announce the move overseas, guess they hijacked our money long enough and now are running away to avoid taxes and more.

Don't forget the firestorm when it was announced that a Saudi (I believe) company was going to do security at some US ports and Bush was defending letting them to go forward with the plan, imagine that!


Of course Bush failed at every business he was ever involved with, but this guy is what the right wing wanted due to his anti abortion and anti gay marriage propaganda and hope that he would overturn Roe v Wade by appointing right wing judges.

[Tlouis]

GlennT

You are a master at sanctimonious CRAP!

[Landseer]

GlennT

You are a master at sanctimonious CRAP!Well I think he is misled and misguided, Bush's polls have dropped month after month, they are now down around 28%- about where Nixon was before impeechment and his resignation, remember the "accidentally" erased tapes? now Rove is claiming the supoenaed emails pertaining to Gonzales were "accidentally lost"

With an approval rating in the 20's and the majority of people against the war, it's time to jump the sinking Bush-ship and bail out like an increasing number of his own people, and party are doing.
The 28% mostly consists of Bush's church going friends and supporters- the anti abortion crowd who got him into power to begin with.
The Republican party USED to be about LESS Government, LESS of it in your life, it's totally changed now to MORE of it, we are rapidly heading backwards to the 15th century.

Bush and his failed policies have killed tens of thousands, including women and children- I've seen the photos over there, I've seen the hundreds of US caskets coming back to Dover- -the photos Bush tried to censor and hide which a guy had to go to court under the freedom of information act and actually SUE to get copies of and put on his web site.
There's more dead US troops now than all of the victims on 9/11 and we've accomplished WHAT exactly?

A few facts about BUSH and his war;

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20041108/facts

After receiving a memo from the CIA in August 2001 titled "Bin Laden Determined to Attack America," President Bush continued his monthlong vacation.

The Bush Administration failed to commit enough troops to capture Osama bin Laden when US forces had him cornered in the Tora Bora region of Afghanistan in November 2001. Instead, they relied on local warlords.
Source: csmonitor.com (http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0304/p01s03-wosc.html)

More than three years after 9/11, just 5 percent of all cargo--including cargo transported on passenger planes--is screened.

The Bush Administration granted the 9/11 Commission $3 million to investigate the September 11 attacks and $50 million to the commission that investigated the Columbia space shuttle crash.

National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice said that high-strength aluminum tubes acquired by Iraq were "only really suited for nuclear weapons programs," warning "we don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud." The government's top nuclear scientists had told the Administration the tubes were "too narrow, too heavy, too long" to be of use in developing nuclear weapons and could be used for other purposes.

The Bush Administration sent troops into battle without adequate body armor or armored Humvees. [ STILL don't have either]

Vice President Cheney said that Iraq was "the geographic base of the terrorists who have had us under assault for many years, but most especially on 9/11." The bipartisan 9/11 Commission found that Iraq had no involvement in the 9/11 attacks and no collaborative operational relationship with Al Qaeda.

The Bush Administration ignored estimates from Gen. Eric Shinseki that several hundred thousand troops would be required to secure Iraq.

Did George W. Bush once have a financial relationship with Enron? In 1986, according to a publicly available record, the two drilled for oil together--at a time when Bush was a not-too-successful oil man in Texas and his oil venture was in dire need of help. Bush's business association with Enron, it seems, has not previously been reported.
To spell it out: George W. Bush and Enron Oil and Gas were in business together in 1986--when Ken Lay was head of Enron. (Lay was named Enron chairman in February of that year.) How did this deal come about? Was this the only project in which Bush and Enron were partners? A call placed to the White House produced no response.

Bush asserted, noting he did not get "to know Ken" and work with him until after he won that election. But campaign records show Lay donated three times as much money to Bush in that race as he did to Richards. Moreover, contacts between Lay and the Bush family pre-dated that campaign. In 1992, Lay chaired the host committee for the 1992 Republican convention in Houston, where Bush's father won his second presidential nomination. And Lay was a sleepover guest at the White House of President George H.W. Bush.

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/capitalgames?pid=21

As Pellosi said once about Bush and his response to Katrina; "Oblivious, in denial- DANGEROUS"

[Rojellio]

Did I miss something?? This went from being a sculpture of a Navy Seal to being a sculpture of Bush, Cheny, Rumsfeld and a 4th Stooge. Bush and friends are not the ones being sculpted here.

I see nothing wrong with the sculpture of a Navy SEAL. I want one of those in my town, to replace Mike the Headless {expletive deleted} Chicken!

I do like the idea of including a couple other sculptures to the mix.. a young Dietz in 4H with his calf, and another one where Dietz's mother is being presented with a precision folded US flag and some medals.

Compulsory service would be a terrible idea. Primarily because the current generation is too soft, weak, pathetic and stupid. They just aren't made from good stuff anymore. Our Military would be about as strong and useful as a cold cast bronze sculpture thing made from some weird mix of paper mache and Elmer s glue.

[evaldart]

As a parent and a teacher I have been witness to a generation only mentally and physically superior to my own and those before (of course there are exceptions). I have been highly impressed by Kids who are technologically very aware and disciplined in their chosen areas; as well as kids who place great importance in their individuality. I could only criticize them for advancing too quickly beyond childhood, which should be cherished. It is the previous generations that have made the mistakes...if some kids feel that throwing away thier one chance at life to perpetuate all this is not the best thing to do, it is quite understandable.
The future will be better if some youthful independent thinking takes charge and does what THEY think is right. The inheritors of the Earth must look to the future and not to the past. And their world will be quite okay with the ranting and raving of aging dissenters,...it just wont allow them to make important decisions.

[Landseer]

As a parent and a teacher I have been witness to a generation only mentally and physically superior to my own and those before (of course there are exceptions). I have been highly impressed by Kids who are technologically very aware and disciplined in their chosen areasThese must not be the " HS graduates" who can't even freaking find the pan handle state of FLORIDA on a blank outline map of the United States, (PAN HANDLE you'd think would be a clue...) who can't do simple math unless they have a calculator or computer, who can't identify the 48 states on an outline map of the United States. They may be wizzes at computer programming but as was reported a while back, employers are finding these wiz programmer types totally lack any social skills to function in a work place environment dealing with real live in your office clients and coworkers.
This is because these people sit behind a computer and deal with everything via computer, fax, email, text messaging 5 days a week from home.
They have to be retrained on such basic stuff as meeting and greeting a client in the office, how tohave abusiness meeting and not talk with your mouth stuffed with a Burger king burger or fries, what to wear to a business meeting say, in a law firm or as a representative of your company meeting a high stakes potential client like a head honcho from General Electric interested in your firm's products.

"Individuality" does this include the pants worn halfway down their ass-cracks and clothes that look like over sized bedsheets or rags stapled together? Purple spiked hair and 30 piercings?
I can't imagine why anyone would WANT to walk around in public looking like they are wearing last month's $5 a night hotel bedspread discards!

[evaldart]

we all know that the real work is done by the ones driven towards accomplishment , no matter their fashion choices. And there are better adapted humans, more intellectually versatile. From your physicists to your shortstops to your bagel makers, I look ahead with a hearty enthusiasm to what they will do next...secure and confident that their undertakings will not interfere with my daily interaction with hammers and torches.

It is the challenge to humanity to persevere DESPITE the efforts (or non efforts) of those among us who seem to seek our demise. So that some more can get a chance to curious themselves over the whole damn thing...and possibly smile at not quite arriving at any real conclusion.

[Blacksun]

I worry that we are raising a generation of people that are unable to create their own work, that their entire work ethic will be oriented to using and copying the great things of the past, the works of other artists. I worry that they may lack an original creative spark and may try to make a living by just raping the past.

[Landseer]

I worry that we are raising a generation of people that are unable to create their own work, that their entire work ethic will be oriented to using and copying the great things of the past, the works of other artists. I worry that they may lack an original creative spark and may try to make a living by just raping the past.Nothing wrong with copying the past unless it's stealing copyrighted material. It's always been that way, and if it earns a living thats a goal being met.
If you think about it, pretty much everything is a copy of something else done before, after all, there's only so many ways you can depict a human torso sculpture or figure, head portrait or geometric shapes.
Copying the past can be looked at as reverence and respect rather than "raping" depending on the motives.

[sculptor]

at least since the time of Pliny,
every "older" generation
has worried that the next generation
was too
indolent,
ignorant,
lazy,
stupid,
impious,
unimaginative,
reckless,...etc...
and especially, lacking in the proper respect for the older generation(us)
Blacksun:
Don't worry, be happy, etc...

'aint a damned thing you can do about it anyway

nothing lasts forever
'cepting, maybe,
tao

[Aaron Schroeder]

It's amazing how a thread can diverge.........Are the kids these days getting the arts education we got twenty to thirty years ago ? How about shop class......Is it better or worse than when we older folks were in school ? I've been out of the loop awhile.........what do the educators think ? It may be different in other areas but my kids aren't talking about art, sculpture, shop or anything handy.

[kellimaier]

Children are exposed to many things that we may have a problem with...or not.
It is up to the parents to teach children the morals they would like their children to have.
I feel that too often there is too much put on the rest of the world either as an good example or as a danger to a child's morals and thinking.
In the end, how your child views violence and violent acts ought to be set by the parent...or indeed they WILL take their cues from the environment.
A parent that wastes energy saying this or that thing should not be allowed to be seen because it promotes violence, needs to go back to square one and ask herself what she is doing to teach her child to be a peaceful person who resolves conflict with thinking and words. And how is she teaching her child to process the things that she/he will encounter in this world through various mediums.
I am sorry if this offends anyone, and if you are a parent who teaches their child instead of complaining about what the world is teaching them, I am not talking about you. I too sometimes feel I am fighting against the world in order for my girls to understand how to be peaceful, productive people. But while even waterguns are not allowed as toys in our home, I certainly would not say a piece of art should not exist in a certain location.

[jOe~]

sometimes feel I am fighting against the world in order for my girls to understand how to be peaceful, productive people. But while even waterguns are not allowed as toys in our home My 14 y.o. daughter is a peaceful and loving as they come. Man what a sweet heart. The wonderful state I live in likes to release sex offenders in my area. And we've got bunches of them. If my daughter is home alone(very rare), a squirt gun won't help her. We live 20 minutes from the nearest services, and the police, if they come, take at least 20-30 minutes(fire dept or any other assistance takes that long too). So every year I give her a refresher on how and when to shoot someone who is entering our home.

Years ago when living a different but similar locale, I was fortunate enough to have a gun handy when faced with an intruder. He took off. The police never did come to investigate or take a statement. The guy was gone. A few days later he was caught trying to enter a house closer to town, and he was armed. I believe in "turning the other cheek", but sometimes thats not the wisest approach. Just another point of view.

[Bentiron]

I guess I agree with both mothers. One wants a memorial of her beloved son and another wants her son protected from it. One wins and one loses. I just wish that there opportunities for more memorials. During Vietnam I lost friends and we had to settle for one memorial in Washington for everybody lost. This kind of puts it out of sight for most everyone so not many see on the way to school. They could do this with Danny's too and everyone else lost in the Middle East Wars. I don't particularly care for these wars. I served my time in uniform and I would like to see a time of national service for our youth not necessarily military but a time to serve the country. The sculpture is fine the way it is but maybe better a the child with his 4-H project would be better because that helped form his character more that the gun.