Should We Stop These Bickering ?

[Merlion]

This forum is getting to be dominated by too much bickering. I am partly to blame as many of the controversy threads were started by me.

We should go back to focus on sculpture. What do you think? Give us your view?

If some of you would still want to let off steam, do it only in the Art Lounge Folder, not in the others.

By the way, don't flame me for saying these so directly.

[Aaron Schroeder]

I live for the bickering, I want everyones point of view, especially the ones that differ from my own. This a pretty civilized crowd, at it's worst it's been fairly tame. When you post a controversial thread, it's a good thing, people are passionate, opinionated, politically incorrect, and when they speak up I applaud them. Merlion.......Don't stop......So we bicker.......It's no big deal.

[Landseer]

This forum is getting to be dominated by too much bickering. I am partly to blame as many of the controversy threads were started by me.

We should go back to focus on sculpture. What do you think? Give us your view?

If some of you would still want to let off steam, do it only in the Art Lounge Folder, not in the others.

By the way, don't flame me for saying these so directly.As they say, sex, religion and politics (and their offshoot topics like abortion) are THE hottest issues around, the ones that cause the most reactions in forums like this because no one can agree on any of those 3 topics and soon it becomes a virtual fistfight.

The letting off steam in another folder is a nice idea in theory but in actual practice it doesn't work because no one wants to leave one folder and thread to post a reply in a totally different one.
I think we should go back to the purpose of the site- sculpture, but in reality even with sculpture there is ALWAYS some connection to sex, religion and politics- I don't see how one can get away from religion issues/comments if the work being posted about is a sculpture of christ or the pope, or how politics can be omitted if the topic is about a photo of a bronze portrait of president so and so.

[Merlion]

I am not Russ, nor one of the moderators. But I can sense that many other sculptors are put off by the heated atmosphere in this forum and have drifted off, rarely coming back if at all.

[evaldart]

If people become offended and intimidated and hurt by the little semi-anonymous typings that occur here they surely must be having far greater problems with the real world. Let them go straighten that out. This forum has fed my insatiable appetite for brain activity but I am fully aware that life happens in the space around my body. I don't expect to be always agreed with so diferences leveled against me are just fine. Maybe someone here will indeed change my mind about something by virtue of a properly righteous attack. You never know. In the mean time...go ahead and bicker.

[ironman]

Hi, On this forum, I thought we were supposed to exchange thoughts and ideas on various subjects related to sculpture. If, we can't express our opinions honestly, which means we will step on someone elses toes, what's the sense of having this site?
If you can't give me an honest answer or rebuttal to something I've said, don't bother, I only want your honest opinion.
I know that occasionally I've hurt some feelings on this site by what I've said and my feelings have also been hurt. Because that happens is no reason to stop arguing.
So, let's keep up the bickering!
Have a great day,
Jeff

[HappySculpting]

I am not Russ, nor one of the moderators. But I can sense that many other sculptors are put off by the heated atmosphere in this forum and have drifted off, rarely coming back if at all.

Yes, I agree with you Merlion. I personally know of a sculptor that doesn't care for this site because as she puts it "there's too much testosterone flowing there." She rarely posts and when she does it's with guarded statements.

Some people don't care to argue or debate. If they do they prefer to do it in a way that doesn't slight the other person but tactfully expresses a differing view.

Have you ever went to a person's house where the whole family fights and bicker's all the time? Most of the time no one really comes out ahead and you don't feel enlightened or energized. Depletes good energy.

Observation: Each forum has it's own personality.

The "Clubhouse" sculpting forum (comprised of many professional fx artists and kit building sculptors) has such a positive spin to it. A person can get about 15 compliments on what they like about your sculpt in a very short time. It's like the positive vibe encourages all that join to be respectful and positive to all. I've never seen a quarrel there. Just never have. They are top notch sculptors and mostly male sculptors. They do give critiques when asked and very frank and helpful.

Heidi Maiers portrait forum: positive and never an arguement. Heidi sets the tone of that site and purposely has asked all to sign up with their real name so that no one can hide behind a pseudo persona and make rude comments.

Wet Canvas- albeit a beginner sculpting forum- but the whole site made up of all kinds of artist is a positive, encouraging, good energy forum.

Somewhere in the history of this site, someone started the tone of this site and those that join see the way many talk to one another and follow suite if their personality lends itself that way.

Having said that, I do value this site very much for the wealth of info from excellent artists here. Sometimes I just feel like I have to jump around to find the trinkets of helpful, positive, constructive info. Oh well, seems to be worth it or I wouldn't keep showing up.

My opinion- hopefully stated constructively.

~Tamara

[fused]

I have no problems with any of the "bickering" and actually appreciate reading the varied opinions and points of view expressed here. Trolling or arguing with the sole purpose of being abnoxious is a different issue and should not be tolerated.

As artists we will be exposed to criticism for our entire creative life and we will never agree with everything we hear, but there is nothing wrong with the healthy exchange of ideas. If that exchange becomes a little heated --excluding personal attacks-- I believe it should be allowed to run it's course and maybe we can still learn something from it.

[WeiMingKai]

Bickering is optional.
Each person gets to choose if they will engage or participate in it, if they will be constructive and civil while they disagree or if they will be insulting and nasty.

It might be helpful to remind folks that civil disagreements have a chance at being a path to enlightenment of some sort while poop flinging only reveals what an abrasive and unpleasant jerk some people can be. Both kinds of behavior have 'value' its just that one kind is useful for increasing an understanding and appreciation of a topic and the other usefully identifies the speaker as someone with nothing worthwhile to contribute. So appreciate the 'value' in the things people say and keep moving on, its a big world and there is far too many things to experience to worry about playing ' civility cop' on an internet message board.

[jOe~]

Perhaps the bickering starts with one's taste...Picasso: "Ah, good taste! What a dreadful thing! Taste is the enemy of creativeness."

Or perhaps its our prejudices...Picasso: "If only we could pull out our brain and use only our eyes."

Or perhaps its the artistic attitude...Picasso: "Art is a finger up the bourgeoisie ass."


Or perhaps its our failures...Picasso: "What one does is what counts and not what one had the intention of doing."

jOe~

[Aaron Schroeder]

Seems most are in favor of " Bickering", however I can understand Merlion's concerns, Perhaps adding a Thread Section that deals with contraversial topics may be in order. It could feature a warning that offensive sentences, phrases, images, misspelled words and links lay within. I bet in short order, it would become the Section with the most views and posts. Is this a good idea or not ?

[Merlion]

I think no moderator has given any comments on this, so far.

It is known that Russ very rarely gives comments unless it is about fire fighting.

[Blacksun]

I haven't noticed any bickering..... :rolleyes:

The Moderators probably haven't commented because they have seen the conversations work their way around to a natural end point. When I sit down at my local "round table" of creative folks for shrimp & beer, or pizza & beer, or tex-mex & beer, or beer & beer, the conversations may drift as they develop, heart-felt opinions may get exchanged, and opinions of each others mental capacity or moral code may get reevaluated, but at the end of the night, I feel good about the state of the arts & my little corner of the world. Kind of like here...after running through a few of the contentious postings, and the overwhelming majority of non-controversial posts, I have learned a few things, re-learned a few things and in general have had a good time. And so far, I've only discovered one person out of the entire community that I would probably not invite to my 4th of July Low-Country Boil and Watermelon Toss. :cool:

I say let the conversations flow....keep it civil, but leave the PC police at home. If you want a testosterone free bulletin board, might I suggest googling something under puppies, kittens, ice cream, and butterflys.... The heading of this board (written in secret invisible code...readable only by those with a suitable collection of scars on their hands) should plainly and prodly proclaim "HERE THERE BE SCULPTORS...ABANDON HOPE YE OF LITTLE PASSION"

Speaking of passions....I was "gifted" with about 20 old large pickle jars full of powdered ceramic glazes....someone's passion from years past....I don't do ceramics... anyone have any suggestions how I could use this in some creative fashion....?

[tonofelephant]

Blacksun,
I would humbly suggest Ebay for the glazes.

Carl

[evaldart]

Well said Blacksun.

[Blacksun]

I hesitate to put them out for sale or for some actual ceramics artist's use as I do not know their history or chemistry... I'm just thinking there has to be something I can do...can I "fire" them onto bricks or concrete or some other like material with an external / non-kiln source (a torch...a fire-pit...)?

I don't know...just know there has to be something...... ;) there has to be....!!!

[Landseer]

Yes, I agree with you Merlion. I personally know of a sculptor that doesn't care for this site because as she puts it "there's too much testosterone flowing there." She rarely posts and when she does it's with guarded statements.
Well it's not the entire site you find this, pretty much just specific folders where politics, religion or sex become heavily involved.


Heidi Maiers portrait forum: positive and never an arguement. Heidi sets the tone of that site and purposely has asked all to sign up with their real name so that no one can hide behind a pseudo persona and make rude comments. I never liked that concept one bit, smart people NEVER use a real or full name anywhere on the internet, I've been around too many places on the net for too many years and seen plenty of people making that mistake, myself included and later regretting it because people can be found very easy with a name and basic location. I personally know two women who had serious problems- one was physically stalked and threatened by a very unstable nut whose real self only came out after they were talking about MARRIAGE. She broke it off and he went on a rampage and threatened to burn his apartment down, since he knew her name, phone and address and emails he repeatedly contacted her till the police became involved and took him to a mental hospital for treatment.

Another friend met a guy in a chatroom she thought was great, they even met in person, but the guy's story about his job and other things about him gave me red flags and I even gave my friend the chat logs showing where he went off the bender on ME when she was not around, he was a control freak. My friend insisted he was a great guy, that was, till he tried to get into Canada to meet her and he was stopped and dissallowed entry due to a CRIMINAL record- he had been arrested for domestic assault(s)

I've seen people in usenet groups get into arguments and then it gets personal with late night phone calls and intimidation tactics like; "I know where you live"

And yup, I had my very own nut case personal stalker who knew me from another forum and we actually had met once since I was in his town. He was a cold creapy guy.

A few years later I reported a web site to the police that I recognised as HIS- it had his full name and address on it as registered owner, he found out WHO reported him and began stalking ME and sending intimidation and threatening emails saying he was going to sue my ass for "libel" and that he hired a PI and law team to get all my info, next thing I knew my name, home address, unlisted number, SS# DOB, place of employment/phone, former addresses, maps to my front door and photos of my house appeared on a web site HE put up. I wound up contacting his attorney with all of this, AND his local police who said there was nothing they could do about the information he put up!

Long story short he was arrested on a different charge- import/transport of over 350 POUNDS of cocaine, that's when I learned he really WAS worth $50million from various business acquisitions and mergers but had lost it all in a stock market crash a few years ago, and then went to this drug muling thing. He had a wife, and 2 kids in catholic prep school and lived in a house worth $1.3 million
He got THREE years in fed prison and is back out again.

So the caution is NEVER put a full name or street address OR phone up anywhere on the internet, nor give this out to people you meet on forums and chatrooms, worst of all post it on a public site.

Unlisted phone numbers are EASY to get- trust me, I know, I've had to change mine once a year because this nut gets it, reverse number searches are easy to use too- have a number? you can get the street address, have the address? you can get the number as well as that of next door neighbors.
Want more?
Most counties now put EVERYTHING up on the web, this includes your home ownership and mortgage as well as liens and even DMV and plate info. Right now MY county has every parcel photographed, measured and complete details on their web site- including how much you paid for your house and who sold it to you, your mortgage holder, the sizes and names of every room (think what BEDROOM and some rapist or stalker has there with that info) what kind of appliances you have, whether you have an ALARM system or NOT and much more.
Some counties in other states were in the news for putting people's documents up on the web that included their SS#'s and other id theft promoting information.

The internet has become one huge invasion of privacy

[GlennT]

On a lighter note, Blacksun: how 'bout glazing the watermelons for the July 4th toss? :p

( in the Georgia heat, you probably don't even need to kiln fire them! )

[Blacksun]

Actually used the 'melons one year to paint a canvas.... spread out a canvas drop cloth, set random containers of random paint on it and encoraged folks to bomb the containers, or bowl them over, whatever they wanted as long as the methodology of distributing the paint was by 'melon. Made a huge mess and an interesting "fireworks display" painting..... of course with all the disgusting organic matter mixed with paint, It got tossed in the dumpster the next day. :)

[HappySculpting]

Landseer wrote: "So the caution is NEVER put a full name or street address OR phone up anywhere on the internet, nor give this out to people you meet on forums and chatrooms, worst of all post it on a public site."

Good caution and I would pretty much agree except for the fact that I do want my name known as a sculptress. I suppose that I don't need to put my full name on forums but only in my website/sculptures/magazine promos(speaking of future ads and website).

[Scout]

Merlion, I usually read posts and get information but if it turns hostile, I just leave it. It is OK to bicker but sometimes it gets down right hostile. I don't need that kind of stimulation. I do miss some of you, but I get to talk to some elsewhere.

Most of you here are on a much more competitive level than I am, so you are much more out there. I look for camaraderie too though and I don't have the energy to bicker. Scout

[philpraxis]

hmmm.... it's up to us to fuel bickering or not.
isn't it?

I was going to post a comment for the "Viriginia Tech and guns" thread. And after finishing writing my post, i didn't post it... I went back to reading something else... I guess the writing was therapeutic ;-)

As said in internet netiquette:
"Don't feed the troll" :)
if you keep replying to some, they will gain more and more importance. But then, everybody decides for himself/herself.

Best,
Philippe.

[HappySculpting]

I do miss some of you, but I get to talk to some elsewhere.
Scout

Hi Scout! :) I've often thought of you and wondered where you went. I miss you and your happy, cheerful presence. Glad you posted to say "boo" and let us know you are still alive and kicking. ;) Keep sculpting away...

~Tamara

[vince99]

merlion your question has created more bickering

vince

[JamesW]

Vince - bickering about bickering (love it)

Merlion - Thanks for your sensitivity - it might be worth remembering the cultural difference amongst the group & what might appear rude or disrespectful in one persons eyes is just a good robust tussle in anothers. For me the answer seems simple - just don't participate in a thread that either offends or seems a pointles circular argument. Don't sweat it, I think your posts usually create really interesting discussions.

Blacksun - I think your absolutely right on this one - the only thing that pisses me off is that I haven't had an invite to one of your pizza (etc)& beer nights !
James

[Blacksun]

James,

Just went to your website....cool work! It took a couple years for installation work to work for me, but now I'm a fan if it's well done and there is some thoghtful content...

If you're ever in the USA, State of Georgia, Atlantic Coast of Georgia, about 50 miles north of Jacksonville Florida...Saint Simons Island / Sea Island, Georgia...you let me know you're coming and we'll reserve a seat for you... the first pitcher is on me....

[cooljamesx1]

I agree with landseer, hot topics and sculpture can't be separated. the bickering is fantastic, it makes this site worth while. I say lets bicker in all the posts except images gallery. If everyone hated the bickering, they wouldn't be the most popular threads. I have noticed that the debate threads have wide paticipation as well, not just two people posting.

bicker on!

[jim]

James,

Just went to your website....cool work! It took a couple years for installation work to work for me, but now I'm a fan if it's well done and there is some thoghtful content...

If you're ever in the USA, State of Georgia, Atlantic Coast of Georgia, about 50 miles north of Jacksonville Florida...Saint Simons Island / Sea Island, Georgia...you let me know you're coming and we'll reserve a seat for you... the first pitcher is on me....


Hey I had a short visit on that island..It was a guys trip that started at smith mountain lake in Va.. and ended up at Ft lauderdale Fla...20 year high school
reunion only three buddies and it had nothing to do with high school...
But we did stop and I had my first pulled pork something at a family restuarant beach bbq, something with beach in the name...
great place, great people, very nice...that was 2005

jim

[JamesW]

Wow Blacksun - sounds like you live in a beautiful place.
And thanks for the offer - but be careful us Aussies have been known to fly half way round the world for an offer of a beer (ha ha).
Until then tonight I'll toast you from here - Cheers!

James

PS this is all getting a bit to lovey-dovey can we get back to bickering now?

[Blacksun]

Absolutely. By law and natural inclination, the only one I get lovey-dovey with is my wife.

[Julianna]

Merlin, thank you for starting this thread.

It seems that us women have been veering on the, shall we say, sensitive side of this issue.

Several months back I had avoided posting anything which wasn't a necessity because the overall mood of the forum was, to me, very hostile. Just before I had dropped in my participation, there were instances were I felt that all I had to do was say "hi" and have my comments spun into a controversial topic or simply be receiving many hostile comments. Whether or not that was the intent of the other members is something only they know for certain, but that doesn't change my perception or experience of the situation.

The consensus of those who have posted in this thread is that they enjoy the "bickering". But how many others have not posted that they dislike the bickering because they don't feel safe in doing so? I have avoided many of the threads which have become heated, even though I wanted to participate, because I didn't want to have to defend myself in addition to defending my position.

Although these heated discussions gives the Sculpture Community a vibrancy, we should remember that it is a community. I am not asking people to refrain from these discussions, or even the bickering. But please remember that not everyone enjoys them and that they are entitled to discussion space in which they feel safe enough to participate without risk of being personally attacked (even if that was not the intent of the so-perceived attacker).

There was someone who recently posted for the first time, and had mentioned that he had been tentative about doing so because of some of the negative feedback he had seen in other threads. And before any of you tell me that he shouldn't be here if he can't take the heat, I'm going to say to you very firmly that he certainly does. This community is something which has been created without prejudice to their aptitude or desire for heated debate, and I hate to think of the members we have lost to some moments of passionate name-calling.

Those of you who enjoy debates have just as much a right to be here as the rest of us. Please remember that this is a public forum, and that the "bickering" that happens may seem innocent enough to you but may not necessarily be perceived as such by all.

Peace.

[MeByTheSea]

Thank you for those well said words Julianna.

Tolerance, is more than a measurement in engineering .

[dilida]

Very nice post Julianna, I feel the same on almost all you said.I don't like the bickering, and I choose my words very very carefully when I do post, which is not the way I talk. I generally just blurt out what I want to add to the conversation I'm involved in, but that may be the difference in a real life conversation and posting messages for all to read. Whatever the case, I have learned so much from reading the different ways of thinking on this forum, I don't want that to change, and I love the international aspect of it the most I think.

It's the personal attacks and the name calling that are upsetting. When the dissussions take that turn, I pay less attention to those people, and try to cull out other more calm responses, or just abandon the thread completely.

Most of the time, I think this is the best thing I've found on the internet, and I enjoy it immensely.

Merlion, please don't stop what you've doing, It has opened up a whole new world of learning for me, and I often share the latest tidbits you find with others.

Let's be respectful,

lisa

[Tlouis]

This is what we bickering bickerers have needed...some womanly input. As one of the worst, I appreciate the gentle slap on the hand. From now on I'll try and let off steam by attacking the rampant crabgrass.

Lou

[Merlion]

It's the personal attacks and the name calling that are upsetting. When the dissussions take that turn, I pay less attention to those people, and try to cull out other more calm responses, or just abandon the thread completely....

Let's be respectful,
When I first joined this forum, I did receive these treatments, even on my country and race. By now I know how to manoeuver around here of course.

[Blacksun]

Personal attacks are just not acceptable....Stay civil in the public space...but that does not mean you should be hesitant to post your opinion. This is a place for the free exchange of ideas and information...I like it that way. :D

[Merlion]

Personal attacks are just not acceptable....Stay civil in the public space...but that does not mean you should be hesitant to post your opinion.
Of course it is not acceptable. But it is no fun at the receiving end.

[evaldart]

I promise to try to be nice though occasionally a wise-assed remark may be more than I can resist. Feel free to attack me with whatever degree of ferocity you choose. I've heard it all first hand from the best of them...can handle it just fine.

[Tired Iron]

As an adult suffering from a life-long bout of "middle child syndrome" ( one of five) I have always been the tolerant mediator in all affairs I end up in. My wife on the other hand is an only child with thin skin and takes jesting and criticism with her whole heart, with lots of pain. So as others suggested above , stay away from the heated debates ( if you can't stand the heat, get outta the kitchen!) if you don't like what you're seeing,and for the name callers and fierce bickerers " take a chill pill , man....." all in all I find the whole forum to be just fantastic! " Takes all kinds to make the world go 'round!" I wouldn't change a thing...well actually some of it was a bit rough but I think that it does all settle like silt. :) For the women at least , I think it would be nice to pull back on some of the testosterone :eek: , gently :)

[danthoman]

You all need to do what’s done in the rural south. You can say what ever horrible nasty thing you want about some one as long as you end the statement with “bless your heart.” :D

I don’t mind the bickering, but if it gets personal I move on to another thread and don't come back. Personal attacks are not acceptable. However, the problem with some people (bless their hearts) is that they don’t understand that you can have a very heated argument with someone and still be friends. I don’t mean to be sexist, but I think men are better able to do this than women. Uh oh, am I going to get flamed for saying that? :confused:

[dilida]

No, bless your little heart,- us women understand, ya'll have a nice evenin', now.

lisa