New illegal sculpture

[philpraxis]

Flags (Drapeaux) is a new illegal sculpture in Paris. Just recently installed.

http://apollo.divshare.com/apollo2/files/2007/05/07/585899/05052007_006_.jpg

This echoes both domestic politics with right-wing ultra liberal president election, global geopolitics with the middle east and ecological concerns.

How much matches do we got left?

Phil.
http://www.XLRMX.org

[philpraxis]

PS:

installation dimensions 3m x 6m x 1m

[GlennT]

For those not following French politics, it need be understood that the French have a unique way of expressing themselves. Zedon's parting gesture to his soccer career with the head-butt to an opponent in the World Cup final was just a glimmer.

Those disastisfied with being treated as outcasts when they don't assimilate into French culture find torching people's cars to be the answer. Then when the vandals are called "scum", that statement, rather than the destruction of random people's property becomes the issue.
The classy liberal opponent to the winning right wing candidiate threatened violence if people did not vote her into office. Thus, the matches. Someone should let the vandals know that waking up to find your car a burned out hulk does not engender sympathy for the arsonist's cause.

When the 35 hour work week, lots of vacation time, and socialized medicine seems too burdensome, the drivers of the mass transit systems, or the sanitation workers, or whomever, decide that nobody needs to get anywhere until their troubles are solved. So they strike and effectively shut down the city.

Thus goeth Fraternity and Equality and the brotherhood of man.

[philpraxis]

For those not following French politics, it need be understood that the French have a unique way of expressing themselves. Zedon's parting gesture to his soccer career with the head-butt to an opponent in the World Cup final was just a glimmer.

Those disastisfied with being treated as outcasts when they don't assimilate into French culture find torching people's cars to be the answer. Then when the vandals are called "scum", that statement, rather than the destruction of random people's property becomes the issue.
The classy liberal opponent to the winning right wing candidiate threatened violence if people did not vote her into office. Thus, the matches. Someone should let the vandals know that waking up to find your car a burned out hulk does not engender sympathy for the arsonist's cause.

Interesting. Your reading of my sculpture was never in my plan, but if you read it like that, I find it interesting.

I find it revealing in fact... Some people will see these matches and use them as a starting point to question things (Can we really keep on burning oil like we do? Can we think that we have an unlimited number of matches i.e. unlimited number of chances to get to a peaceful and proper politic situation? etc...). I'm part of this crowd.

Some other see this sculpture as "justification of vandalous acts". GlennT, I think you're part of this crowd. And that's so wrong. Either it's revealing about your antagonistic nature, or it's just that you didn't get it and I'm the one to blame: I didn't make it readable enough for you.

Axel Kahn, a very interesting geneticist said recently: we have a category of people who take facts as tests to question an idea they're researching, and usually we call the scientists, researchers. Another category of people will have a preconception and will try to use whatever fact that arises as a proof for their preconception.

[underfoot]

australian artist, Brett whitely, 1968,
installed State gallery NSW australia.

[circeart]

uh oh... :D

[philpraxis]

australian artist, Brett whitely, 1968,
installed State gallery NSW australia.
Yup, just watched his work, interesting. I'd love reference to more materials on this sculpture :)

[GlennT]

philpraxis:

You post a photo of a sculpture with matches burnt and unburnt, the day after the elections...
You say that this echoes domestic politics, and a man just won the presidency, of whom the opposition warned there would be violence if he won. The mode of violence is Paris lately and also directly related to opposition to this person, has been to torch cars. Using, presumeably , matches to start, let me guess, fires....So....

How did I either get it wrong or my response reveals my antagonistic nature?
Is my ability to connect the dots suspect because the conclusions that follow are "politically incorrect" ?

Had this sculpture of matches been posted in a completely different locale than Paris and in direct chronological relationship to this political circumstance, then of course it would have a different meaning. To pretend there is no correlation other than a misconception on the part of the viewer seems like a disingenuous attempt to dodge responsibility for the message.

[philpraxis]

Your position is misunderstood or antagonistic the time you associate the justification of violence with this sculpture. That's "attributing" a thought to someone, a political value to a sculpture, like a judgement call you make and then proclaim as universal truth. That's the difference with questionning or assuming.

And I can tell you you're completely wrong to assume that this culture condone or justifies or warns of violence :)

Your ability to connect dots that are not connected for a reason may be called by some people "pareidolia" at best, "paranoia" at worst ;)

No, every liberal is not an arsonist ;) at least, for some time before everybody is news-brainwashed by believing so.

Somehow, I like your conclusion in the way it shows what people can believe when they are completely heads-on into believing in good and bad, in white or black. With every liberal-born idea or project being anarchistic by nature and realization. Of course, you're completely off. But that's as much idiomatic of our times as the first objective of this sculpture. Whatever can make people panic is good business for the (in)security dealers.

Phil.

[GlennT]

I'm hoping that you can share your good-natured understanding of humanity to explain to the over 700 people who discovered that their cars were burned today that they are paranoid if they think there is reason to consider that they live in a culture which condones violence.

My guess is that they are going to be a bit beyond examining the black and white actions that have directly hurt their lives, in order to search for the delicate shades of gray.

In typical current French fashion you do not want to confront the real evil of actual indiscriminate violence, you would prefer to shift your attention to an easier issue, the terrible injustice of a bystander daring to observe, draw a conclusion, and make some comments. The audacity of someone to believe in such things as good and bad is more of a threat to you than the actions of those who are in the process of destroying your glorious culture. Dumas and Hugo, who expressed the best of French character, did not suffer from this escapist perspective.

[philpraxis]

Glenn, you're mixing up so many issues it's either amusing or worrying.

First, stating that France, even if I don't care really if you state any ill-thought position, is a violence-condoning society is just silly. Look at French laws on guns, harm to other or non-assistance to endangered person and you'll see there are still some good things about France ;-)

The black and white positions I was talking was referring to your view of the world, not the french people's. You're still speaking of evil and good, grow up, it's 21st century: the worst things have been made with total faith in the good of the actions (Iraq might be argued about ;-) but I would say most americans were faithful that it would help when war started).

As for the "reality check" of my positions, I'm doing that constantly, thanks :) I've talked with passers-by, they don't seem to be upset and don't think about arsonists or rioters when they see the sculpture. Maybe you should stop watching your TV and start talking with people. Some US media has been reported to display on current riots: "French react violently to idea of workweek longer than 35 hours." That's so laughable it would make me forget that it's a dreadful situation.

C'mon man, you won't succeed in making me say what I don't say and in making everyone believe that french are lucid dreaming on how society can exist and a bunch lazy rioters. It's only a minority that exist everywhere, and it's definitely not the core of the debate right now, just the spectacular core, and that's the problem: stop believing everything you get through media.

[GlennT]

When I grow up and realize that its the 21st century where good and evil no longer exist, what will I call it when people strap bombs to themselves and blow up as many innocent civilians as they can...?..let's see...we can no longer call it evil, nor bad,....okay, I'll grow up and call it not real nice, and believe that those people would behave better if we only showed them that we love and understand them.

I should grow up and realize that in the 21st century one should expect disatisfied people to torch cars, and not be so judgemental as to think that such people are bad. Just adapt to the idea that eventually France may have to adopt Sharia law to keep these folks quiet.

I do not want to be understood as believing that the French actively condone violence. What I mean is that the inability to call not so nice "evil" or "bad" and make a serious effort to stop it creates a climate where the not so nice elements, like good Darwinian evolutionsists, become the fittest who survive.

I also hope you know that even if I generalize to make a point, I realize that there are a lot of good and likeable French people, including yourself, and my concern is not so much to denigrate the French as to address a certain strata of thought that I think is self-destructive to the French people. Certainly there is hope...after all, you guys elected the best candidate this time! ;)

GlennT

[Landseer]

what will I call it when people strap bombs to themselves and blow up as many innocent civilians as they can...?..let's see...we can no longer call it evil, nor bad,....I call it religion, as in another example of how religion kills people, fill people's heads up with visions of eternal "paradise" if they do x or y and eternal agony if they don't and THIS is the result you wind up with- crusaders for another dead/fantasy deity.

There are few "innocent civilians" every little boy over there will eventually grow up to become a solder or crusader in one form or the other.

Phil- the right wing dominated media here distorts, picks and chooses what and how to run various stories, to get the real truth on such things as the Iraq war and how BAD it is, one has to go outside the us media to places where they aren't afraid to say it like it is. A friend visited Ireland recently and said their media showed the REAL Iraq war, the bodies, bombings and deaths the US media hides or covers up or minimizes.
I suspect the same is true of coverage of events in France.

When you have major news outlets like CBS linking up their web site to dozens and dozens of "Christian Science Monitor" articles every week and the right wing Christian Science Monitor web site itself, it leaves little doubt who and what runs CBS these days.
I'm surprised they don't link to the "Westboro BAPTIST church" too.

[frozenimage]

Big sculpture of match-stick....make the usual unusual.

Hargh, ummm,,,, French fries?

I see violence in this stuff. Jr. Anarchist. Where do you GO after you burn things? Next step.....suicide bomber pack?

Or is it about media attention? Do we all think only negative action garners press coverage?

Have fun! :mad:

[philpraxis]

Big sculpture of match-stick....make the usual unusual.

Hargh, ummm,,,, French fries?

I see violence in this stuff. Jr. Anarchist. Where do you GO after you burn things? Next step.....suicide bomber pack?

Or is it about media attention? Do we all think only negative action garners press coverage?

Have fun! :mad:
French fries? That's an excellent idea... Freedom Fried! ooops... Fries ;-)

(i think i have my title)

A suicide bomber pack with the "Self promoting TV network satellite uplink and dramatization how-to", yeah, that's another good idea: it's the logical evolution... Sorry, i'm having fun but this game of association is getting a bit trivial don't you think?

Now, if you wish to see that as media attention, please, indulge yourself. Just for the record, I only presented this sculpture on this forum for now, not even on my website ;) So I let you think about it :)

http://athena.divshare.com/s03/files/2007/05/09/600461/Photo_002.jpg

http://athena.divshare.com/s03/files/2007/05/09/600486/Photo_003.jpg

[evaldart]

Phil, I do not read chaos, death, arson, violence or anything "French" into this piece. I see Oldenberg-ian prsence and irony here. the subject being the re-scaling. But then as one who is decidedly under-politicized and suspicious of the intent of the media, I am not easily led down that path. Its a pretty quiet piece if you ask me. Simple, reduced, effective.
And even if it had been a sculpture of a 30 foot pipe-bomb, or Molotov cocktail or even one of those black cartoon ball-bombs with the lit fuse, the commentary issued would befit any age of humanity anywhere and would have been as justified in its placement and message as any other piece of art.

[philpraxis]

Evaldart, I agree wholly with what you said. To me, it's a rather quiet piece, and you got the Oldenburg reference right, with the twist that I tried here: Oldenburg are exageratedly blown up in sizes (horizontal direction is emphasized most of the time, the 50% version of Erwin Wurm, but still), and I tried to say "well, sure you can do big, but right now the real big things are totally un-spectacular in order to be "free from the crowd": big issues are always discussed by big players in the shadow of spectacular and less important events. And while Oldenburg or Wurm are part of this spectacularity ("if it does not work, make it big, if still don't, paint it red" cf. Mark Di Suvero), I think there is a subtle but important play in making big things completely disappear yet be there, questionning "What are we really looking at in our day to day life?". I cannot escape from mentionning a big reference for me in that vein: "Mediated" by Thomas De Zengotita, one of the best book i've read in the last 10 years. Let's say that in 1980s-1990s I had Temporary Autonomous Zone as a reference, for the 2000s I think it is Mediated.

[obseq]

Funny. Referring to what amounts to tabloid fodder at best as a primer into French politics. ;)

"For those not following French politics, it need be understood that the French have a unique way of expressing themselves. Zedon's parting gesture to his soccer career with the head-butt to an opponent in the World Cup final was just a glimmer."


Philippe, do you have anything else planned? As Fritchie mentioned in one of your other "Illegal Sculpture" threads, I like the idea of "hit-and-run" sculpture in an urban landscape.

Keep us posted.

[philpraxis]

Funny. Referring to what amounts to tabloid fodder at best as a primer into French politics. ;)

"For those not following French politics, it need be understood that the French have a unique way of expressing themselves. Zedon's parting gesture to his soccer career with the head-butt to an opponent in the World Cup final was just a glimmer."

Yes, hahaha, that was quite hillarious post but hey, he has the rifht to express himself, right? ;-)

Freedom of speech is a law for me, even if it's not a law in France ;-)


Philippe, do you have anything else planned? As Fritchie mentioned in one of your other "Illegal Sculpture" threads, I like the idea of "hit-and-run" sculpture in an urban landscape.

Keep us posted.
Indeed, i'm planning my next steps now, I've been there a bit and the sculpture is still there (it's located on the ground of a future police headquarters, "Property of Ministry of Interior". As you know, we have now a very conservative and fascist government and president.

In the past, this place was an automobile repair shop run by far-right racist people. Well... a lot of bad karma indeed. So I needed to help the karma by bringing some art ;-)

Anyway, yes, some future sculpture are planned, maybe less spectacular, i'll keep you posted!

Peace,
Phil.

[Ries]

One of the great things about art is that you can read whatever you want into it- the artist doesnt have to spell out his intentions, instead, he can make a gesture, and different people will interpret it in different ways, depending on their own world view.

Which, obviously, Glenn has done- he has read his own current set of concerns into the piece.

And, as Phil has explained, other people, who seem to watch other TV stations, have read totally different meanings into the piece.

To me, that is a sign of the work being successful.

[JamesONeil]

Am I reading this right? Philippe built and installed this sculpture on his own initiative? Hooray for him.

In any case, I love everything about this sculpture. That it is "illegal", on a site with a rich history and maybe? ironic future use.

Far from seeing the sculpture as having any political or social agenda, I think it is very clever in being suggestive while ambiguous.

YES, I think interpretation tells us more about ourselves than our ability to read political or social mind of the creator. Beware the interpreter, you may reveal mostly yourself!

If this is uniquely French, then pass the Bouillabaisse, I'm hungry for more.

Otherwise, three cheers of "illegal sculpture"!!!

James

[Ries]

The more I thought about this statement-


"For those not following French politics, it need be understood that the French have a unique way of expressing themselves. Zedon's parting gesture to his soccer career with the head-butt to an opponent in the World Cup final was just a glimmer."


The more I thought- HMMM- maybe he has something here- lets see if it applies to other countries as well- like this maybe

"For those not following American politics, it need be understood that the Americans have a unique way of expressing themselves. Tysons parting gesture to his boxing career by biting off the ear of an opponent was just a glimmer"

Or maybe this one-

"For those not following American politics, it need be understood that the Americans have a unique way of expressing themselves. Bonds parting gesture to his baseball career by taking illegal drugs to enhance his performance, and invalidate his record was just a glimmer"

and what about this one-

"For those not following American politics, it need be understood that the Americans have a unique way of expressing themselves. Frank Sinatra's gesture to show his immunity from laws and societal norms, by throwing the phone on his table at the Polo Club in Beverly Hills at the rich collector at the next table, causing a brain concussion, for the unpardonable sin of telling Frank to tone down his loud profanities as there were ladies present, was just a glimmer"

And then I considered this statement-

"I'm hoping that you can share your good-natured understanding of humanity to explain to the over 700 people who discovered that their cars were burned today that they are paranoid if they think there is reason to consider that they live in a culture which condones violence."

And I thought back to my time living in LA, during the LA riots- and I realized, yes, those french are really pussies- 700 cars- thats nothing- here in america, we do it right- during the "Unrest" in 1992, we burned down 1000 buildings, set fire to another 3 or 4 thousand that were saved, and 53 people died.

Those crazy frenchmen, thinking they know how to riot!

And here in america, we sure as heck dont "condone violence" no sirreee baby. We have ZERO Tolerance.

[philpraxis]

Ries, your post is hillarious. Some friend read it and found it REALLY good !

Here, I inform you of a surprise opening at the Temporary Autonomous Zone of Gambetta where the sculpture is setup.

When?
This saturday at 6PM, (2007-05-26)

Where?
Paris, France. Around Gambetta

Send me a mail for the precise place.

Meet you there ;-)

Philippe.

[GlennT]

"This echoes both domestic politics with right-wing ultra liberal president election, global geopolitics with the middle east and environmental concerns."

Thus wrote Philippe in describing his own work.

For the benefit of those who were not following French politics, I addressed the (primary? first stated) point that Philippe himself said that the sculpture was about. For that, I got lambasted by him and others by misunderstanding his intentions. Suddenly I seemed to be a person who projects his own antagonism on the otherwise civil situation of riots and torched cars, which it seemed to my active imagination was the subject of the sculpture.

I began my discourse with what I thought was a bit of humor, but apparently the humor only works when it is accompanied by a viewpoint that follows ones own politics. Ries understands the irony , except that he does not give me credit for having enough intelligence make a joke rather than an absurd generalization. Do I have to put those silly smiles after every humorous sentence so that my meaning is clear?

If I have to add smiley faces to let you know that I am engaging in a bit of humor, then why the heck should you fault me for interpreting a sculpture as a literal message relating to the exact circumstances of its location, political situation, actual events surrounding those, and your own stated intention?

I will add this face :confused: because your good humor :p seems only tolerant of those you consider :cool: because they agree :) with your point of view.

GlennT

[sculptor]

GEE

and here, I had thought it a giant q-tip with a red end

so much symbolism embodied in so little art

will wonders never cease?

[Ries]

I dont know Glenn- that seems a bit revisionist to me.

There has been, for the last few years in the USA, an ongoing critique of the French in general, with the main theme being they are cowards, for not joining us in our war in Iraq. Then, its usually mentioned that they are socialists, which, to many americans, is just a bit worse than being homosexual cannibalistic pedophiles.
This takes place all over the media, on the radio, tv, and in print.

Your initial post did not have "humor" vibes emanating from it, but instead, fit right into this self righteous theme of "Frog Bashing" that I hear all the time.

Freedom Fries, anyone?

I didnt think you were making a joke when you said that Segoline Royal threatened violence if she wasnt elected, or when you connected her loss with the car burnings in France, intimating that her supporters were following her orders and protesting by burning cars- was that intended as a joke too?

And what about the part where you said that those ingrate Frenchmen dont work enough, are mollycoddled by all those social services, and then have the gall to go on strike- was that meant to be funny too?

You can back peddle if you want, but your first post still reads as a blatantly political, non-humorous statement, and its implied meaning, at least to me, is that Phil is somehow aiding and comforting those lousy rioters by making this piece.

Now my post, about american violence, was clearly meant as a joke, and I dont think anyone, even you, needed smiley faces to see that.

Personally, I think, as I have said before, that art that raises questions is good, and its even better if it is subtle enough that it raises DIFFERENT questions in different people.

So I consider this piece more successful because of the ire it has obviously raised in you, versus the other, different reactions other people have had. If it was simply a blatant political piece of propaganda, a flag waving in favor of one side or the other, it would be much less interesting.

[Denis]

Hi Philip,

When someone posts a picture of their work on this board (without instructions) then it's assumed that they are asking for a critique. Is that your intention ?

If someone likes or doesn't like your work it's usually a good idea not to take either comment too seriously. The normal procedure is to thank them for their time, see if there is anything to be learned and then move on. Attacking them by saying they simply don't get it makes you look defensive and it is an old argument we have all heard many times before.

Anyway the piece is presented as a illegal sculpture..why is it illegal ? I'm curious. Also if you do have to spend 30 days in the slammer for this I will personally visit you and bring you sandwiches. (insert smily faces here)

Cheers,
Denis

[GlennT]

Ries:

Why are you trying so hard to misunderstand me?

The humour was in reference to understanding the unique way the Fench express themselves...observing the actions of the French soccer player in the World Cup, just some casual humor as a seque into the meat of the issue, obviously ( I hope ) absurd if a bizarre episode on the soccer field is actually considered to be a distillation of French political thought.

None of the commentary regarding the actual words and events of the French election and post election riots were meant as humor. I am still willing to believe that you can tell the difference, and that your questioning this is merely that lesser form of humor known as sarcasm.

I thought that your post was funny, but still it was based on a false premise regarding my intentions. Humor works better when it is based on truth.

And I will be willing to admit to indulging in a vibe of French-bashing, because the elements of French thought that I dislike are so at odds with the moral character found in the French heros of earlier historical periods. And I do think that Phillipe's sculpture was intellectually in sympathy with, if not in fact encouragement given to the rioters. If he wants to hide his meaning with revisionism and false ambiquity, and not have the courage to defend his viewpoint, or pretend that if it is interpreted the way that I have it is the fault of the viewer, that is his business. I do not say that it has no other interpretation. I just affirm that the obvious one cannot be so easily shrugged aside.

GlennT

[philpraxis]

Denis, you're right about the ask for critique of my work. Interpretation is open and I like this. I needed to clarify something that does not relate on my actual sculpture but about my personnal opinion: I do not advocate violence. I can be more precise: I think violence is a weak form of expression that some fools rely on when short on brain cycles. Resistance in armed conflict is a different subject of course, i'm not _that_ idealistic ;-)

And I will be willing to admit to indulging in a vibe of French-bashing, because the elements of French thought that I dislike are so at odds with the moral character found in the French heros of earlier historical periods. And I do think that Phillipe's sculpture was intellectually in sympathy with, if not in fact encouragement given to the rioters. If he wants to hide his meaning with revisionism and false ambiquity, and not have the courage to defend his viewpoint, or pretend that if it is interpreted the way that I have it is the fault of the viewer, that is his business. I do not say that it has no other interpretation. I just affirm that the obvious one cannot be so easily shrugged aside.
Well... GlennT, here you see that I must say something. I do not advocate violence, and if you believe so, that's you're right but that's not what I feel.
It's just for the sake of communication, it's all right if you keep believing this after X messages on the subject. I don't need either to justify myself on this subject. And my courage is to keep my opinion of not defending violence and at the same time not making straight-forward clean-cut well-meaning art. I believe your reference to "morality"" extremely insightful on why you may not like this paradoxical and non-Manichean work.

There is ambiguity on my work, I agree, and it's definitely interesting. On the other hand, there is NO ambiguity about my state of mind and my position regarding violence.

Peace,
Philippe.

PS: it's an "illegal sculpture" because there's no permit for the installation of such sculpture, that's all. :) It's a follow-up on another illegal sculpture made by another group of people which I relayed on the forum earlier.

[StevenW]

All politics aside, It looks like an "Illegal junkyard". ;)
I wonder if the graffiti makers will go to jail too? Just once I wish they would spray paint some buffalo or mastedons on a wall with some spears and dancing stick people.

I hate to think of what the archeologists 20 thousand years from now are going to think about us painting "dude" on our walls. I can almost read the textbooks now; Modern man seems to have gone backwards after the first 25 thousand years of development.

Now for the politics; Some of my best friends live and work in Borduex, 3D software developers and very bright guys and I love them all.
Pass me the ketchup for my freedom fries please and scoot over close to me, plenty of room for everyone at my table.

[philpraxis]

hehehe.... yeah, I guess "progress" will have a changing definition over the next few years / decades / centuries & millenia.

"The modern men thought that going forward meant to build new machines and invent new way of life to go faster, higher, better. In fact, internal life and quietness was considered a fringe activity that was reserved to cult-like organizations such as 'zen' and 'hippies' which were despised and criticized. Even people who were just exploring their own personality solo or in group, such as street painters, sculptors and weekend-artists were seen as weird people for not trying to earn and spend as much as they could" ;-)

oh... and i'm putting a book called "Freedom Fried" with stories about the sculpture, description of this junkyard, social and political context, transcript of our rants and posts, etc.. etc... It will be available tomorrow at the opening :)

Tough thing, the barricade was just re-closed yesterday and I either need to do the opening on the outside OR break the barricade, which I don't want to do. Well.. we'll figure out.

Oh, and there's a video too now:
http://www.divshare.com/download/725734-691

Peace
Phil.

[Ries]

The video is great.
I love seeing you make the piece right on site, burning the one match in a fire behind the fence, and then putting them up like a mysterious organic growth process to the passerby.

Very cool piece.

[philpraxis]

Thanks Ries!

Tough news: this sculpture is no more... It's been torn down before construction. But it had very interesting reactions in the neighborhood.

That gives me ideas for a new future piece ;-)

Peace
Phil.

[chris 71]

i read all the posts in this thread and i like this one the best by sculptor

GEE

and here, I had thought it a giant q-tip with a red end

so much symbolism embodied in so little art

will wonders never cease?

[philpraxis]

:) views and opinions, that's why we're here :)

just one thing, the [ QUOTE ] thing is useful if you want to quote someone.

Another illegal sculpture was voted into permanent stay around Place de Clichy: voted unanimously by the city administration of Paris 18th arrondissement, quite a nice outcome.

[majd]

I love it !!