Iraq

[Araich]

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/06/0609_030609_tvbaghdadart.html

[anne (bxl)]

interresting!
thank you robert....

[jwebb]

This is awesome...in the true sense of that overworked word.

[Araich]

In the last week I've been on a jouney through first Malaysian then Islamic art sites, and finally ended up searching out Iraqi sculptors... and there are a lot of them.

What this reading has done, is embarras me on just how ignorant of Islamic and Arab art I am. The whole thing about non-figurative representation I completely missunderstood.

Anyway, I might see if I can contact the members of Al Najeen.

[fritchie]

Araich - let me also thank you for adding this site, but I have to add a word of caution: we do need to be careful about political comment on thus site (religious and probably some other topics as well). It easily can get out of hand.

Some interesting observations: The obviously old, stone figure on Russ’ current masthead actually is of an image in the principal Iraqi museum collection. It is a king from the pre-Iraq Kingdom of Kush and is about 5000 years old. Russ was asking the moderators for new images just about the time of the invasion, and this is one of the things I especially wanted, and found to give him. Iraq is the land in which human civilization began - agriculture, animal husbandry, writing, cities, and the other nuclear concepts of group life.

Another major point - from everything I have read, Islam rejects representational art. This sculpture may be more revolutionary than people realize. Lots of comparisons have been made in the US in the last 3 - 4 months between the Christian Reformation led by Martin Luther in the 1500's, and the current situation in Iraq. I’m not especially an advocate of these comparisons, but the claim is that Luther forced much needed social, religious and political reform on encrusted western Christianity, and reform of a similar type is what Islam needs today.

The position of Christian art in 1500 vis-a-vis Islamic art today is completely inverted. Roman Christian art was almost completely figurative, as a means of conveying early Christian events to an illiterate public, whereas Islamic art (like Hebrew I believe) has considered it blasphemous to depict religious subjects in other than purely symbolic form. Luther went back to this taboo on literal figuration, and substituted a Bible in the people’s own German language to get across the religious concepts.

Enough history, but we do need to be careful to keep this subject in hand.

[Araich]

Contrary to a popular misconception, however, figural imagery is an important aspect of Islamic art. Such images occur primarily in secular and especially courtly arts and appear in a wide variety of media and in most periods and places in which Islam flourished. It is important to note, nevertheless, that representational imagery is almost invariably restricted to a private context. Figurative art is excluded from the decoration of religious monuments. This absence may be attributed to an Islamic antipathy toward anything that might be mistaken for idols or idolatry, which are explicitly forbidden by the Qur’an.

Source: http://www.lacma.org/islamic_art/intro.htm

I would humbly suggest that contrary to our global social health, we currently fear discussion and thus learning of Islamic belief in the West. This is profoundly unfortunate.

To be honest, I do no wish to open a thread on the merits or change needed in Islam. Glass houses, I say.

But given that, art and sculpture clearly have a place in the broader healing and advancement of disperate peoples. By looking for the similarities amoungst us, we can find solace, inspiration and community.

[jwebb]

You are both profound and eloquent. I think that's very rare in "visually oriented" people. I agree completely. Aside from any political considerations, much less religious, the sculpture Al Najeen has raised makes me very proud of them, as sculptors and as human beings.

[adambradley]

Fritchie,

I would like to take issue with your assessment that political and religious commentary should be kept to a minimum in this forum(this is my interpretation of your comment).

I understand these issues can be a source of tension for people with varying viewpoints. I am 24yo and find that art, can and dose depict all walks human experience. This especially includes religion and politics. I find it very interesting the social motivations of artistic creation. These messages that we create, through art, will help to leave a perspective of our world for future generations. In a world faced with so many challenges political and religious thought should have a forum.

In conclusion, I think we must sharpen our abilities to listen to varying viewpoints and maintain common courtesy and respect for others to state their opinions. Should we develop these skills we might work out some of the issues that so divide us.

Adam:)

[Araich]

In fritchie's defence, I read that he merely suggested caution... and I think this is highly valuable advice.

Below a picture from Ahmed Al Bahrani.
Source: http://www.iraqiart.com/artists/artistdetail.asp?ArtistId=43

[Araich]

This slight article attempts to address the unfortunate ignorance today of the Islamic figurative tradition in painting, which is only equal to the general global ignorance of the tradition of Islamic figural sculpture in the round and in relief. In 1990 at the Victoria and Albert Museum in London, I watched as a primary shool teacher took her class through the Islamic exhibits. She said, "In Islamic art they don't do figures, just patterns." The children were then somewhat suprised to see a whole range of figures, animals and birds, some with human faces, figures on horseback and on camels, hunters and other figures on pottery and porcelain, on carpets, on glass and on metalwork, as they toured the Islamic collection. Likewise, if one reads the works of certain Islamic theologians one would also be suprised by the sheer quantity of figures, man, bird and beast, depicted in works produced in the Islamic world.Source: http://www.turkishdailynews.com/old_editions/03_08_02/feature.htm + http://www.turkishdailynews.com/old_editions/03_09_02/feature.htm
Also: http://www.turkishdailynews.com/old_editions/03_15_02/feature.htm + http://www.turkishdailynews.com/old_editions/03_16_02/feature.htm

It would appear that people writing on figuration in Islam generally have an agenda other than art. Perceptions in the west have basis, figuration has been dissallowed or at least frowned at. However it is also true that it has and does flourish in certain areas, and that only more rigid interpretations prohibit it.

Oddly, I went out to find highly abstract art, and ended up reading about the figure for 3 days.

[fritchie]

Araich - Thanks for these additional URL's. I have copied the text to read later. As a chemist and a fan of math and astronomy, I long have had great respect for the contributions of Islam and particularly the Arabic world in these fields. The words alchemy, algebra, algorithm and many others beginning with “al” are of Arabic origin.

In fact, only this summer did I discover that algebra and “Arabic numbers”, including the concept of zero, are not Arabic in origin at all, but were transmitted to hopelessly backward Europe by Arabic traders, and had their origins in India. How sad the state of education in the West!

I did discover, or perhaps rediscover, while doing some history research about 5 - 6 years ago, that the western Renaissance began with the Spanish reconquest of Iberia, and distribution of Arabic texts on just these subjects, as well as works of Greek and Egyptian authors.

Many thoughtful publishers and media outlets have refocused on Arabic and Islamic tradition since our invasion of Iraq earlier this year.

[anne (bxl)]

I have a few experience with islam and it seems that some points have to be clarify.

all those exceptionnal culture who have invented "arabic" numbers, alphabet, astronomy, algebra,... were located in mesopotamia (north of syria, irak, iran,...), they were summerian, persian, phenician,... but not arabic (neither musulman yet!).

"arabic" originally qualifies only what comes from arabic peninsula. Mohamed created Islam to give arabic nomads a unique social, religious and political structure.... and started to expend Islam and arabic language throughout middle east, north africa..... arabic language became the business language of all those countries (for centuries, a unique language for musulman, christian and jewish traders!).

back to today : a senegalese musulman doesn't speak arab, opposite my lebanese brother-in-law is arabic, and christian! meaning that arabic culture is not synonym with islamic culture : every colonized country has keept local tradition, including sometimes figurative traditionnal art (have a look on diversity from nigeria to pakistan!).

So I am a bit surprised the very first manifestation of freedom of those irakian artists is so much religious connected.... It would be so interresting to have their own comment! would a contact with them be possible on this site?

[fritchie]

Araich - Here is your new Iraqi sculpture, replacing Saddam Hussein, from the front page of today’s New York Times. J. Paul Bremer, III, U. S. Civilian Administrator, is the figure in dark suit and tie. In the interest of honesty in reporting, the image is credited to the Associated Press, and I have both cropped and retouched it.

It’s interesting to see the difference between your photo and this one. Here, the caption simply is something like “JPB visiting site of demolished Hussein statue”, and I don’t think I would have noticed the sculpture if you hadn’t sensitized me to it. The AP photographer used it simply as an eyecatching background, where your National Geographic article emphasized the sculptural group responsible. I’m also surprised by the date of the NG article - June 9. Clearly, this event ran below general U. S. news radar.

How did you get your material? I assume it was some art reference.

I want to comment more on your references to figurative elements in "Islamic" art, and Anne's noting that it is inappropriate to use such a simple title for this very broad field, but that will have to wait a day or so.

[jwebb]

It's quite interesting that none of the networks nor CNN nor Fox nor even NPR have had a story about this sculpture. On the BBC site I saw a photo of it, but not the story. One would think that just from the "human interest" side somebody would pick up on this. We certainly saw and continue to see the Saddam scupture being pulled down ad infinitum. No wonder everybody distrusts the news media today, though our reasons for doing so cover a huge spectrum. My respect for National Geographic has increased.

[redrajah]

The beauty of wars are the heroes they create. Amazing!

[jwebb]

There is no beauty in war. These artists who did their work in spite of war are my heroes.

[redrajah]

Originally posted by jwebb
These artists who did their work in spite of war are my heroes.

That's kind of the point jwebb.

[jwebb]

Well your point was ambiguous at best. Having a father and five brothers who went to wars, any talk about beauty or glory in it pushes my buttons.

[Araich]

Peace...

I'm genuinely impressed that this thread has held up so well, in most forums this would have become a highly charged political slinging match by now. Such are the emotions.

When really, the point is this: Sculpture and the actions of a handful of poorly funded sculptors can speak loudly and clearly of hope, when all around them is conflict.

The content of the work, style or anything else, is pretty much irrelevant. In my humble opinion.

[fused]

"Iraq can't just take hope, We have to create it ourselves."

After reading these posts I took a poke around as well.

Found another version of the June 9, 2003 (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/06/0609_030609_tvbaghdadart.html) National Geographic News Story.

This War Blog (http://www.brandonblog.com/war-blog-68.html) has two more views of the 23' plaster sculpture, plus one more (http://www.mafhoum.com/press5/147C33.htm)
point of view from that moment in time.

I had all three of these windows open at once, so I don't know which one
contains the Joe Walsh midi that began to play.

The third link is a joint project from Voices in the Wilderness and The Electronic Intifada
which is a site I have never encountered before with it's connection to Electronic Iraq (http://electroniciraq.net/news/).