Help Identifying this scuplture

[provgencon]

I bought this at a shady consignment store for a relative sum. i find no markings at all... does this look familiar to anyone?... or does anyone know who might find it familiar. it is 28" tall and 29" wide, weighs about 65lbs...ish... it is a man on a horse, holding a handgun in the air. The tack on the horse consists of a Calvary style saddle with "D" style, all metal stirrups(typical civil war/revolutionary war era), ladigo, flank strap, tail crupper, and breastplate. Standard headstall with draw riens(not split), rectangluar saddle blanket.
"He" wears a double breasted coat which extends below the hips, trousers that seem to have a stripe down the side, long cuffed gloves worn over the coat sleeves, and a flat topped, thin ban hat
i am not looking to sell it, its part of my modest , growing collection... and its awkward not knowing its history.
any leads would be greatly appreciated. thank you.
p.s. i can send more photos email....

[provgencon]

i got to looking at this some more... i notice there are SIX heat prints on the bottom of the base...see them( grey circles from the heat of brazing?soldering?)... there are only three legs touching the base. and where there seems to have been something else connected to the base, other than the horse and rider on it now, you can make out swirls from a grinder of some sort. AND...... there is a particularly odd spot on the base that looks as though there might have been a signature, but ground off. My question to you folks is, would anyone in there right mind part out a bronze to piece together another? this piece is definitely made from three pieces... the base, the rider, and the horse itself. thanks again for any leads.

[Lab]

Looks simular to a Remington sculpture, with the exception that his work is of exceptional detail. (Most likely it is a work done by an artist inspired by his work) As for the gray circles on the bottom of the base, those could be where the runners were removed and sanded down after casting the base and horse together. There does not appear to be welded marks around the hooves to indicate that the base and horse were once separate pieces. Also since there are only three legs touching the base and six "gray circles" means that the other parts of the horse that are away from the base, ( the raised legs) would have had wax vents or runners connecting the base, and statue together. This is for air to excape allowing bronze to fill the void, later the runners would have been removed and surface detail restored.
Without a name on the art it is not posible to tell who did the work...and considering it appear to have been removed would be suspicious.

[provgencon]

exactly... suspicious. thank you for the insight about the grey circles. i never would have guessed.

[provgencon]

update.... took it to a buyer/seller of bronze works... and after he got done laughing, told me it was something between garbage and a lawn ornament.
i think he thought i wanted to sell it, or something... nevertheless rude.
he did add something that had worth above that of garbage. he said someone went throught the trouble of casting a reproduction of the original image to create a knock off of the original: adding the suspicious signature looking area on the base was ground off the recreation before being used to make the knock offs, to avoid copyright infringement.
i bet thats gotta be pretty close to what we're looking at here. a knock off. but of what?.... He could not say what it was a knock off of. he also said it made of some kind of powder, made him want to sneeze. I think he was attempting to ammuse himself. i showed him the bottom of the piece, and he had to agree it had 'some' content of metal.

duh.

I'm guesing if it aint bronze, its gotta be brass, with a bronze colored finish perhaps?

anyhow, still hoping somone will recognize this figure, if it is a knock off, what is it a knock off of?... and as the person responded before this relpy... are not the grey circles indicative of some process of creation?...
thank you folks for looking.

[fritchie]

The line down the length of the belly might indicate that the horse, at least, was made in two halves (left and right), and later welded together. It might be a piece "inspired by" Remington, but not a direct copy of any individual piece, as Lab suggested.

[provgencon]

thanks fritchie...
heres some photos of what would be scars from a two piece casting, welded together. If your correct, What a good job of welding them together, hardly a scar. Would either of you guess that this piece is an original work, inspired by remington, or perhaps c. russell?.. and if so...why would you speculate the artist would not sign the work? thanks again for all the replies, very informative.
Also, on the photo of the bottom of the piece, you can make out drips of some sort. would these drips be from a finish that is applied to a work, or would they be from applying some sort of bronze colored finish to an other than bronze type of metal?
thank you.

[provgencon]

In another website, someone responded to my inquiry with this:

"....I am not sure if anyone else has written to you with this information, but I would be really suprised if it was a re make of a Charlie Russell, sometimes he forgot to sign things, but I kinda doubt it....It's kinda a funny story how I learned about Mr. Russell and some of his antics, :) I have a friend who did some work for Mr. Russell when he was a kid. Sometimes Charlie would pay my friend in artwork. I do not know if it is common knowledge, but Charlie Russell sometime partook in a little bit to much "fire water" and forget what he was doing. I guess the man was quite the character, when my friend knew him he was kinda old.
There is quite an extensive museum in Great Falls, Mt. he had his shop there for a long time. It was a small log cabin that was close to his house. If you ever get the chance to see it, do it, it is worth the effort. I do not know if the official web site for the state of Montana has info. on him or not, but it seems I remember seeing something about him there..."

[provgencon]

more photos of the bottom of the piece.

[fritchie]

I'd be willing to bet the horse was made at least largely in two pieces. After all, the mold material within the body had to be removed somehow.

From the bottom photo in post 1, even the forward cinch holding the saddle in place is mismatched at the "weld". It's not unusual in two or more -part casts to get small mismatches like this, and the foundry typically tries to grind away as much of the mismatch if possible. In fact, there is an odd line across the rear leg, roughly at the joint. That also could be a weld line, or a place where the metal cracked and was repaired.

Since this long, uncorrected weld is on the bottom, it would be less noticeable to a casual viewer, but that still is an indication of carelessness. As far as not being able to follow the weld across the rest of the piece, perhaps the division followed bits of leather harness. Likely, the rider also was cast separately and welded to the mount.

I'm not closely familiar with the work of either Remington or Russell, so I can't comment on the matter of "inspiration or copy". As far as color trails across ther bottom, they show signs of being left by a liquid when the piece was on one side or the other. That could be part of a patina process, but it would have been easy to correct (a local, light wash with dilute acid), so its presence is puzzling.

P.S. - On the matter of whether the piece is metal or "powder", metal should give a ring of some sort if you rap it with anything, even your knuckle. A solid piece, say plaster or something similar, would give a dull thud.

[provgencon]

thanks again Fritchie,
it is indeed metal... as i said before, i think the broker fella was attempting to ammuse himself...a nice ring.
Can you help me understand this "patina process"? once the piece is completed, and all the sculpting is done, is there another process that gives the work its beautiful color?

[fritchie]

Yes, patining is done after the form of the sculpture is complete. It can be very simple or very complex, and you might want to search for that term here, using our Search buttons. But, in essence, as long as the sculpture is a copper alloy of some sort (bronze, brass, or possibly something else), it will acquire a rich color throug patining.

That can be done simply by burying the piece in moist earth, where it may turn a blue, green, brown, or black, and possibly a mixture of these colors. Some sculptors like to surprise nonsculptors by simply urinating on the piece repeatedly, in an out-of-the way spot. Ammonia is a powerful patining agent for copper alloys, and the urea in urine has a simialr effect.

Since patining is a decomposition or "rusting" process, it must be stopped when the desired color is achieved, and this is done by waxing the sculpture. Wax, of course, is not permanent, though indoors it may last a century or more. Outdoors, the wax should be removed and reapplied about yearly.

[provgencon]

hmmm...
So, 'patining' isnt necessarily a coating that is a applied to the sculpture after the sculpting is complete, but "waxing" is.
Is this wax a liquid?...the kind of liquid that could cause these drip stains on the bottom of the piece? I am assuming that once the patining is achieved to the likeness of the artist's desire, the piece is then buffed(?) and then waxed(?) to give it that brown semi-gloss lustre?
i would hate to think that what were looking at here are the stains from the incontenance of a 'suprising' artist :eek:

[fergie8x10]

This may be a Ron or Bill Rains from the 1980's

[provgencon]

thanks Fergie, did a little research on the rains artists. turns out Ron passed away in 03, Bill however has a studio here in billings, about two and a half hours away from where i'm at. I will go to bills studio within the next couple of weeks and see if anyone recognizes the piece. I found only one picture on the net of his work( under three feet tall) and it definitely looks similar. the tooling marks especially. thanks for the lead.

[fritchie]

hmmm...
So, 'patining' isnt necessarily a coating that is a applied to the sculpture after the sculpting is complete, but "waxing" is.
Is this wax a liquid?...the kind of liquid that could cause these drip stains on the bottom of the piece? I am assuming that once the patining is achieved to the likeness of the artist's desire, the piece is then buffed(?) and then waxed(?) to give it that brown semi-gloss lustre?
i would hate to think that what were looking at here are the stains from the incontenance of a 'suprising' artist :eek:

Depends on how you want to describe it. It IS a coating, but one of acid, ammonia, or some other material. The wax can be liquid or solid, but a solid wax usually is applied when the sculpture is warm enough for the wax to melt. After the wax has solidified again, the pierce is buffed with a soft cloth.

[provgencon]

thanks again for the insight Fritchie. I think its safe to say that the drip marks on the bottom of this work are from the patining/wax process.
Also, I have viewed online images of all Remington works of Bronze (23). None of which are after the same theme as this piece. I'll be looking into all known bronzwares of Charlie Russell to see if theres a similar theme. Made Contact with Bill Rains, says he'll get back to me after he looks into it. Sooner or later somone's going to recognize this piece... thank you all for your help, i have learned so much thus far.

[fritchie]

Good luck with this. Let us know what you find.

[provgencon]

well... i spoke the nations leading expert on Charlie russell... nope... its not a copy. not a remington either... still waiting to hear from bill rains.. anyone else know who i might be able to talk to about this piece? know of any experts in the field?

i just read a spot on a website that described in detail the art of lost wax sculpture... heres a quote..."The network of sprues and gates is then removed and the surface of the bronze is chiseled and filed so that no trace of them can be seen. This process of hand-finishing the bronze to perfection is called "chasing." Any remains of the fireproof clay model left inside the bronze are also removed now. " Does that look like whats happened in these photos?...Or is it that someone really did remove a signature before the patining?

[fritchie]

Those long caterpillar tracks with cross-treads are typical of a burr grinder with a flame-shaped or similar head, and not a die or wheel grinder of the sort most people probably would use to remove that much material.

That fact, plus incomplete removal, sort of suggests someone was playing a game with the signture. Is it there and can you read it??? A suggestion that whoever made this cast was not a serious artist.

[provgencon]

you see what i see fritchie... i wonder if there is a chemical out there that could rise what was there out... like the ferensics specialists use to raise a ground off serial number from a gun...or perhaps an x-ray. I'll figure this out byGod....I'll figure this out!!
anyone know of a database for foundries in the contigual US?... perhaps i could email them all, and see if anyone has produced this piece. Honestly, the more i dig, there more intrigueing this hunt has become.

Just heard From Bill Rains, nope. Not Him or His Brother Ron...

[aston003]

I do not know much about identifying sculptures, but what i do know is that i was raised in the Flathead Valley in Montana and this piece resembles, if not is, a very common sculpture amongst galleries in Bigfork and Whitefish. One place comes to mind specifically, yet i am not too sure of the name. If you were to contact Eric Thorsen's Gallery on Electric Ave. downtown Bigfork he may be able to help you out identifying or leading you in the right direction. Or if you were to research the galleries and artist in the area as well. My family and i used to consistently tour the galleries and are friends with Eric and all of them, and i swear i have seen this piece several times.

[fritchie]

Re #21. It would be impossible to contact all galleries, even in a limited area. Individuals might cast their own pieces, and foundries can last only a year or a couple. Best to follow suggestions just above, or keep asking with the images you have posted.

[provgencon]

Those long caterpillar tracks with cross-treads are typical of a burr grinder with a flame-shaped or similar head, and not a die or wheel grinder of the sort most people probably would use to remove that much material.

That fact, plus incomplete removal, sort of suggests someone was playing a game with the signture. Is it there and can you read it??? A suggestion that whoever made this cast was not a serious artist.

Closer inspection shows that both a wheel grinder, and that little flame shaped bit were used in this area.
Thanks for the lead, I emailed Thorsen Gallery... waitng to here back.

[provgencon]

well....there doesnt seem to be anything else i can do to find out who created this horse and rider sculpture. thank you all for your help. :)

[fritchie]

Thanks for reporting back on this. We all learn from episodes like this, whatever the specific outcome. Perhaps over time, you will develop new leads.