Who Sculpts just for themselves?

[suburbanartists]

The post "recent inspirations" prompts me to ask the question.

Who sculpts to create art pieces just for themselves with no "0" thought to what someone else will think or say about it?

With NO thought to what museum, gallery or show it could go to.

With No thought to who would buy this thing?

Does anyone here do that? Be honest, i mean no thought or care at all!

[jOe~]

That would be me. I'm an avid and passionate collector of my own work. Last week a gallery owner requested some photos but I'm too lazy and don't really want to sell. Making stuff is work enough. That end of it is stimulating, even fun. But to haul and install heavy metal and to deal with all the rest--don't need it. I will cave when I run out of space, get help, or need more dough. I did show other work in the 80's but showing did little for my ego or pocket book. If I get into print work again I would show though. Now that I do iron, print exhibits would seem easy by comparison and I do need to get out of the house and stop being a hermit...I think.

[sculptor]

my initial reflex action/thought to questions posed by people who do not state their own position is habitually negative

that being said

life in service to an aesthetic is the only one i live
i build/sculpt/design/etc. that which I want to see/smell/hear/sense/etc

i am also a dedicated slave to the capitalist's economic imperative
if someone wants to offer me money to do their thing (call it a commission), i rarely turn them down
if someone wants to trade money for something i've already created, and if the price seems to reasonably compensate me for the loss of the thing ,
i'm actually quite pleased for a moment---then the $ disappears into the banking system and becomes meaningless until it reemerges as this computer or this on-line connection or this morning's coffee or last night's whiskey or...

for two summers now, i've been puttering with making a mountain stream
my wife thinks i'm nuts, my son thinks it's kitch, and i really don't care---it ain't about them nor their concepts, it has exclusively to do with me and my aesthetic

that being said
(maybe this indicates priority?)
when offered money for a commission, i tend to drop my self motivated activities and dedicate my skills to their wants

how about yourself?

[Duck]

I can’t honestly say that I don’t consider the opinions of others, especially my wife and a couple of “real” artist friends.
But who would buy, show, or museumize my crap…those questions are for laughs and entertainment purposes only, besides who wants to lug this stuff around.

[ironman]

Hi, If you make art for any other reason than to please yourself and your creative instincts, you are not making your art but someone elses!
Why bother?
Why not just get a real job and make real money?
To me, the whole idea behind art and creativity is to find ones own voice and express whatever it is that you as an individual human being wish to express.
If you're doing art for any other reason, you're cheating yourself.
Shame on you!!!!!!!!!!
Have a great day,
Jeff

[jOe~]

To me, the whole idea behind art and creativity is to find ones own voice and express whatever it is that you as an individual human being wish to express.
If you're doing art for any other reason, you're cheating yourself.
Shame on you!!!!!!!!!!. That's a bit harsh me thinks. Some folks have tons of talent and like to spread it around...and if they can get moolah along with the ooh aahs, no one is cheated.

[ironman]

Hi Joe, Part of your mantra at the end of your posts is "The great depend on truth and demand honesty."
If someone gets all the moolah and ooh aahs from work that is dependent on others input, they not only cheat themselves, they cheat all of us by withholding their own unique personal expression and the humanity that is at their core.
We are all cheated.
Have a great day,
Jeff

[HappySculpting]

Recently was told that people who buy bronzes want to put it on their mantle or desk and like the upward, more verticle pieces that will look nice in that setting. Something that will have a smaller base so that it will fit in with other things and will stand up tall behind/or with other items.

So..... now that I'm doing bronze editions and not one of a kind ceramics (which I did only for my own tastes), I think about it and may do some more verticle pieces. I will do less than verticle as well but since someone has sort of put a bug in my ear about verticle works, I'll do it. God knows I've got a million ideas in the verticle dept. and it will be an authentic "me" piece.

I sculpt for my enjoyment, don't need the money, and therefore, am free to take or leave opinions of others. Some time I take the opinons. :) ... if I like. :)

[jOe~]

they cheat all of us by withholding their own unique personal expression and the humanity that is at their core.We are all cheated. Maybe the title for this thread should have been "Who sculpts just for themselves...and still exhibits their work?" I'm full of humanity man, but I guess I'm cheating you because I'm too lazy to scrape off the bird poop (tough stuff when aged BTW) and photograph the stuff? Like the lovely Tamara said "God knows I've got a million ideas in the verticle dept. and it will be an authentic "me" piece." She can apply her honest talent in many ways and not be "cheated".

[grommet]

Part of me just likes to keep busy, and when there's a lull in my own work - mentally or otherwise, it's nice to have a project to do. That's where the commission-type stuff comes in. It keeps the muscles flexing and gets you out of the house, so you remember how to use words. It's when you jump through the hoops and make changes & they decide not to do it that I think I've done myself a great disservice.
I make my art for me, it regenerates and restores the bits and hunks torn off by the vultures. I do hope to share it & maybe someone else will recognize something in a piece.

[Ries]

Well, I am a parent, and while I may have had sex just for myself, once the kid arrives, he or she has their own agenda.

Which is to say that no matter how much you think its only for yourself, once your create something, it takes on a life of its own.

And even inanimate objects like artworks sometimes have trajectories, agendas, lives and histories seperate from their creators.

I feel good when I push em out of the nest.

I make my art for my own reasons, following my own threads of ideas- but then, I try to make them fly, and leave home.

[Alfred]

"Who sculpts to create art pieces just for themselves with no "0" thought to what someone else will think or say about it?"

I've never known anyone who doesn't consider their audience. It seems foolish to not take into account the viewers perspective. "Where will it be viewed from?" "What color will give it the emotional note I'm looking for?" These are things that are important to the creation of art. I'm not saying you should pander to the whims of the public - by no means!! - Create the work that you feel passionate about and that moves you. You should be the biggest fan of your own work, but to think that someone would create a piece without considering the views of others (even in the slightest degree) seems foolish.

"With NO thought to what museum, gallery or show it could go to."

I've never thought about any museums showing my work, I would like to see my work in museums someday, but I've never created work for that purpose. Nor have I ever created work that would fit into any particular gallery. Again, I would like to have my work in galleries, selling out shows and making lots of money. I would never change the work I make so that it fits into any particular "category" or "genre" or anything that might get me into this gallery or that gallery.

"With No thought to who would buy this thing?"

I'd be lying if I said I never thought about the sellability of my work. I've made smaller sculptures (1/4 scale and smaller) because I thought they would sell easier than the larger 1/2 and 3/4 life sculpts. Does that mean that I'm not making "MY ART" anymore? Like Tammara (Happy sculpting), who might create tall works because she heard that there might be a good market for those pieces, is she not creating "Her Work"? I certainly don't look at things like dolphins and ballerinas and say "Wow, those seem to be selling like hotcakes! Maybe I should get in on that action." (If you happen to sculpt dolphins or ballerinas - No Offense) I don't create work beacause it is "hip" or "hot" right now, I always do what I enjoy and create images of the things I want to see. But does wanting those sculptures to sell so that I can support my family make me less of an artist or some kind of sell-out?

I don't know what your possition is on this (your own topic), but I certainly hope you clarify it for the rest of us.

Alfred

[StevenW]

Who sculpts to create art pieces just for themselves with no "0" thought to what someone else will think or say about it?
Does anyone here do that? Be honest, i mean no thought or care at all!

I want people to like them, of course I do, I also realize I'm just another squishy jelly blob as our friend Evaldart likes to say. I have no pretense about anyone liking what I make. I mostly carve rock for me and my own enjoyment and to see how far I can push myself, not to mention they've cut my Christmas shopping bill to zero over the years. I don't really need the money either. I live a relatively frugal life and am grateful to be content in that respect. I feel fortunate also to have a University education and have studied with professionals in several fields; Music, science, literature, chess, food and art/sculpture, all of the things that are interesting to me. So being honest, I can't say I have zero care, but I'm guessing that it's probably no greater than most. :)

[GlennT]

I keep working on commissions, although I also have a bunch of sadly neglected " just for me " works in various stages of completion around the studio. Contrary to what Ironman says, I don't feel that the commissioned works are any less me. With a few rare types due to economic necessity, the commissions I accept are 100% me and my ideas, just made to fit a certain broad criteria, which I then freely interpret with my own creative imagination. So, rather than cheating anyone by witholding my personality, I am find opportunity to display my personality through art in a way that can reach others.

Now, to put Ironman on the spot for a moment, are you not cheating others by limiting the audience of your work? Instead of seeing a commission as a threat to your personal expression, why not take on the challenge of shaping a commission to confrom to your personality? Have the courage to transform the "limitations" of a specific criteria into a framework, an armature over which you express your unique vision.

The main regret about my commissions presently, with one exception, is that they do not begin to bring out my full potential as an artist. But the types of work that would do so are not things that I could sculpt on my own without some form of economic assistance, other than at maquette scale. Meanwhile, the commission work keeps me honing my technical skills, pays the bills, provides some thrills, and keeps me moving up them-there hills.

[evaldart]

Glenns got a pretty realistic and functioning handle on the whole thing. It might surprise him but his days sound very much like my own: a necessary volume of commissioned work that I have designed 100% to fit the paying situation , and any number of projects in various stages of completion that periphery my earning and hijack my attention at every possible opportunity.

But I will claim no excuse, financial or otherwise, for not pursuing my creative druthers at any scale or laboriousness that I decide is necessary. I am always working on things alone that wiegh in the tons that soak my machines and de-fuse my motivations for other things...most I will surely not ever sell - in fact they are likely to revile visitors /potential buyers. So be it. These behemoths are the reason I do it at all, they take me to new places every day, they threshold my mind and body and allow me access to places that celebrate advancement and progress. These are my truths because they are NOT attached to food and shelter - in fact they afflict the attainment of food and shelter. But they are much better than evrything else. Alas though, Evaldart is a hard worker and knows how to make a buck without leaving the studio. Of course monthly ventures to NYC must occur in the name of good business (and good eating, good drinking, good music, museums, galleries,etc 24 hours of mayhem and I'm back in the studio for more)

[furby]

Yeah i can't force myself to make things i'm not interested in, for example dog sculptures, even though people love em & buy em. I only make dog sculptures of particular dogs cos i want to i.e. a particular dog i knew & loved or one thats caught my eye especially. but a person could make a proper production line of dog sculptures & sell them, but you may as well have a job delivering mail for the same satisfaction. Though i enjoy making horse sculptures but still theres a point where u have done it already & doing it again is not learning anything new anymore. however if i can imagine something new i want to make with a horse in it i will.

Currently i'm doing a commission of a life sized man & its been quite a learning experience. my aim is obviously to please the person paying the bills. but on the other hand for my own happiness i must make it a good sculpture & its an exercise to do that while being given the subject & the direction they expect & i'm using it as self discipline to force a good sculpture out of this task. so its actually hard work but very much learning.

in my normal sculpture i make work that i enjoy making. i'm happy that other people generally like what i make. whether i'd still make as much work if people hated it is something i wonder about. but then when i had no gallery & didn't sell anything i still made them, so i guess i would. in my day job i work with a man who makes unlistenable music & he still makes it regardless. i think its something you just do cos you're unhappy if you don't.

[jOe~]

The reward of art is not fame or success but intoxication: that is why so many bad artists are unable to give it up. (Cyril Connolly)

I like what is in work – the chance to find yourself. Your own reality, for yourself, not for others. What no other can ever know. (Joseph Conrad)

The highest reward for a person's toil is not what they get for it, but what they become by it. (John Ruskin

[suburbanartists]

This was meant to be more of a thought process question than anything else. I only make a small amount of comissioned pieces and for those I'm fine with having a theme and size parameters and even some specific input from the client at the planning stage.

I like to hear others thoughts, sometimes they get morfed into a piece, sometimes they help me think through some bad ideas or see things a new way. But then i'm on my own doing what i like because at the end of the day that is what you both want. You want to be true to yourself, and they want a piece of you, a real piece. And i like that idea. Besides if they don't like it i'm more than happy to walk away with any piece i make and find a place at home for it.

Making public pieces is highly motivating and inspiring for me. So far for the few i've done i've had complete control, and have only really been limited by self imposed safety concerns and size limits (what i can get in/ ontop of vehicle. This is what gets my blood flowing. Outdoor public pieces. I like the sometimes collaboration of other artists and actually anyone with real thoughts good and bad.

All that being said I mostly (95%) work from my own ideas without any input or thoughts from or about others and Like most artists i don't want anyone to see a work in progress. No one can see it till it's done.

I didn't think about selling, showing, other's thoughts until recently when i opened my eyes and saw a yard and house filled with my stuff.

I've just about run out of space. Now i'm at a point where i think Ries put it best for me.

"Well, I am a parent, and while I may have had sex just for myself, once the kid arrives, he or she has their own agenda.

Which is to say that no matter how much you think its only for yourself, once your create something, it takes on a life of its own.

And even inanimate objects like artworks sometimes have trajectories, agendas, lives and histories seperate from their creators.

I feel good when I push em out of the nest.

I make my art for my own reasons, following my own threads of ideas- but then, I try to make them fly, and leave home."


This really sums up my thought process as well.
Now i just need to kick these twenty somethings out the door.

[Duck]

I enjoy and create images of the things I want to see.


Alfred


........that pretty much sums it up

[jOe~]

I enjoy and create images of things I didn't know I wanted to see.

[GlennT]

I see the created images enjoying things I wanted.

[evaldart]

I'm with Joe, arriving at something that I did not at all expect to see is the real thrill - sometimes I'm flabbergasted and sometimes disappointed. But going through the motions on a prediction or plan kind of makes it real W-O-R-k...I'd much rather it be a laborious flight of fancy.

[jOe~]

I see the created images enjoying things I wanted. I'm asking myself, "what is Glenn on?" Then it comes to me and I understand what he's saying. Probably nothing I'd want to try as I like to work on Sundays. . Excellent come back. Perfect example of opposite ways of working--one to express what you know, the other to discover what you need to know.:)

[ironman]

Hi, If you make art for any other reason than to please yourself and your creative instincts, you are not making your art but someone elses!
Why bother?
Why not just get a real job and make real money?
To me, the whole idea behind art and creativity is to find ones own voice and express whatever it is that you as an individual human being wish to express.
If you're doing art for any other reason, you're cheating yourself.
Shame on you!!!!!!!!!!
Have a great day,
Jeff
Hi, If you read my post, you would comprehend that I said nothing about the size or orientation of the sculpture, nothing about selling and nothing about commissions.
I change the size of my work, usually because I get tired of working either large or small and then I go in the opposite direction. Sometimes, I decide to do smaller work with the idea that they'll sell easier but the truth is I sell more large work and at higher prices. Yet, I'm at the beginning of a series of small works, WHY, because I want to!
I sell my work and have done commissions.
It's when a client says "can we change that and do it my way" or in any other way tries to impose their esthetics on MY work that I balk at things.
I have lost commissions because I wouldn't go along with their program but I don't want my name on something that isn't totally my work.
Selling and wanting to sell work isn't selling yourself short. It's when you go in the studio and say to yourself, if I make it with such and such it'll sell but if I make it the way I really want to make it, it won't sell and you go with the former, that to me is when you're sculpting for someone else.
It's changing the concept not the size of the work that's troubling to me.
Of course the two could be intertwined in which case you've gotta go with your heart.
Have a great day,
Jeff

[ironman]

I'm with Joe, arriving at something that I did not at all expect to see is the real thrill - sometimes I'm flabbergasted and sometimes disappointed. But going through the motions on a prediction or plan kind of makes it real W-O-R-k...I'd much rather it be a laborious flight of fancy.
Hi, That's why, although I do many drawings and sometimes make models, I leave it all open ended so as keep it all creative and W-O-R-K (drudgery) to a minimum.
Have a great day,
Jeff

[ironman]

Hi, If you make art for any other reason than to please yourself and your creative instincts, you are not making your art but someone elses!
Why bother?
Why not just get a real job and make real money?
To me, the whole idea behind art and creativity is to find ones own voice and express whatever it is that you as an individual human being wish to express.
If you're doing art for any other reason, you're cheating yourself.
Shame on you!!!!!!!!!!
Have a great day,
Jeff
Hi, If you read my post, you would comprehend that I said nothing about the size or orientation of the sculpture, nothing about selling and nothing about commissions.
I change the size of my work, usually because I get tired of working either large or small and then I go in the opposite direction. Sometimes, I decide to do smaller work with the idea that they'll sell easier but the truth is I sell more large work and at higher prices. Yet, I'm at the beginning of a series of small works, WHY, because I want to!
I sell my work and have done commissions.
It's when a client says "can we change that and do it my way" or in any other way tries to impose their esthetics on MY work that I balk at things.
I have lost commissions because I wouldn't go along with their program but I don't want my name on something that isn't totally my work.
Selling and wanting to sell work isn't selling yourself short. It's when you go in the studio and say to yourself, if I make it with such and such it'll sell but if I make it the way I really want to make it, it won't sell and you go with the former, that to me is when you're sculpting for someone else.
It's changing the concept not the size of the work that's troubling to me.
Of course the two could be intertwined in which case you've gotta go with your heart.
Have a great day,
Jeff

[JasonGillespie]

I suppose those who see sculpting for others as sculpting for themselves hail from Mars?! It is impossible for it to be one or the other for me. I can't divest myself of these two seemingly opposing purposes anymore than I can stop being an artist. For me conceiving ideas and then executing them...in the hopes that someone feels resonance or a common bond....is sculpting for myself.

I imagine I could make a case for not caring one whit about what people think, but for me that would be a dishonest attempt to align myself with the solitary artist mythology....which I am not.

Honestly, to be sharing my own passions and struggles...or speaking about others'...for me it is the most rewarding personal type of sculpture I could be doing. Am I a mutant or does anyone else have that particular dichotomy?

[suburbanartists]

A father of a friend of mine commisioned me to do a Swordfish weathervanish type piece. He is not only a bigtime fisherman and the author of "Fishing up the Moon" , but also a collector of varied art pieces which he proudly talks about whenever you stop by his house. He said what he thought he wanted (a swordfish) and i listened and told him I don't know what it will end up being but it will not be a replica of what you know as a swordfish. It will be an abstraction that i come up with while in the construction process. He said ok but looked a bit concerned.

I ended up making 2 pieces. The first i did i was not happy with at all. My wife loves it and everyone that sees it usually make unsolicited positive comments. This just confirmed that the piece was on the WRONG track.

So I started over learning from what i didn't like about the 1st piece and created a much stronger fierce piece. When i finally installed it for him he was so happy i endend up giving to him for a token $1.

For someone to be genuinely excited about something you made from nothing is preety much the ultimate for me.

Now he had a superb spot for the piece, I will get to see it a few times a year and watch it age hopefully for many years to come. I'll always have good thoughts about that piece, My friends family, and the job i did. This was my piece, and now its is Our piece.

I get more joy from seeing it on his house than i would on my own.

[ironman]

Hi, So Jason, Since you seem to feel that sculpting for others is sculpting for yourself, do you dumb down your work to appeal to others so that you get that resonance?
To me, that's just an ego trip, making work with the intent that it appeals to others is just courting the oohs and aahs.
I want to communicate, have resonance and get my point across to others, but, it'll be on my terms, and the viewer better bring an open mind because I'm not pandering to them.
Where did you get the idea that the "solitary artist mythology" is about, as you put it, "not caring one whit about what people think"?
Van Gogh, as far as I am concerned, is the primary lesson here.
He cared very deeply about his work and humanity, yet, he did his work, his way, not pandering to society. He didn't choose the "solitary artist" role. His refusal to change his work to fit in with societies idea of what good art is, forced that role on him. He cared very deeply about what people thought but wouldn't change his work to suit them. Thank God for that!
That integrity, that steadfastness in the face of all the trials and tribulations that he went through in his short life is and always has been an inspiration to me and that more than his work is something I try to take into my studio every day.
I don't ever expect to be a famous artist but in my own humble way, I hope to at the very least do my own work, my way.
I owe that to myself.
Have a great day,
Jeff

[jOe~]

I owe that to myself If you don't pay up, you're cheating yourself out of a life.

[suburbanartists]

IronMan,

I'm curious, Would you or could you work on or with a team or group to make a piece?

Many artists have had understudies do much of their for them. How do you feel about that? Even if the lead artist remains in control how do you feel about other hands on his/her piece?

I have to say that that thought wouldn't let go of me at the Serra exibit at the moma. All i could picture was a ship building factory and the ironworkers doing all the work. It did greatly lessen the experience for me.

[jOe~]

I have to say that that thought wouldn't let go of me at the Serra exibit at the moma. All i could picture was a ship building factory and the ironworkers doing all the work. It did greatly lessen the experience for me. Emphasis mine. Too bad. When a loved one serves a salad do you think of the migrant workers who actually did all the hard work? If a man points at the moon, why look at his thumb? Why....? You said it,the "thought wouldn't let go of me". Sneaky, pesky buggers.

[GlennT]

Well said jOe!

[jim]

I Create my art work because I want to be famous and have people stop me on the streets to take a picture with me..I want to do a milk ad in Peoples magazine. i want to hang with Paris Hilton in vegas and pimp around in a Farrarri. I dont need the Money I just want the fame. I feel I have the it factor and why not me...I have muscles and I'm good looking, plus I am very talented in metal.. LOL

OOPS! Thats my Alter Ego talking.

I do art work because it relaxes me and I get a natural high from finishing
a piece....

[danthoman]

Several years ago someone asked me why I was so into wood working, turning and carving. Well, I didn’t have a good answer, except that I enjoyed it. An art teacher friend who heard the question and my response just laughed. A couple of days later she showed up at my workshop with a sign that read “artists create because they must.” She was right, it’s like an addiction. As a newby to creating art (I was in my 40’s) I made stuff just for myself and loved it. I was having a blast. Then I got the scent of… money… and started making things I thought would sell. I did shows, had pieces in galleries, was making some money and was very unhappy. Now, with few exceptions, I make pieces just for me. I always enjoy it when someone looks at a piece and goes ‘wow’ (even more if they buy it), but if they don’t like it, so what.

[evaldart]

Good one Jim, I will admit to similar fleeting thoughts. But then I would have to be clean and sociable, valet-park the 1990 f-350, soil some red carpets, give up the natural ice, eat my whoppers with a fork and knife...but I'd have a thing or two to say to some of those celeb art farts at their exclusive openings allright - and then I end up right back where I am now - assembling monstrosities for a few priveledges eyes.

[ironman]

Hi Suburbanartists, I don't know if I could work on a team or if I would even want to. Thought about doing work with my fantastically creative brother, but he's not really into art.
As far as apprentices and others doing the work, we have foundries, steel mills, fabricators, paint companies, etc., SO, why would I object to that?
It's funny, you walked around the SERRA show thinking about others doing HIS WORK, while I walked around that show thinking how great it was that HE STUCK TO HIS VISION and somehow got the backing and found the only steel plant in the world that could accomodate him, got the pieces made and how wonderful they are.
I'm sure that even with his name, he still had to knock on a few doors and convince people or corporations to help him. 2" thick cor-ten doesn't come cheap. Now I do realize that without his name, he couldn't even get up to the door to knock on it, but I still think it's fantastic that he did it.
Have a great day,
Jeff

[suburbanartists]

Joe. no i don't think about myself when my wife goes out to our garden and picks some lettuce for our salad.

Should i be thinking about the evil seed company that i bought the non organic seeds from?

I'm sorry you're all so in love with the Serra steel. I like it too but am not as enamored as most here. That's just my opinion.... who really cares what i think?

Yes i respect the concept, material, effort & artist but i didn't feel the epiphanny that others here have.

I'm not against apprentices. Many times it is impossible to make a piece without them. But it does alter my experience with a piece, somtimes for the better and sometimes for the worse.

[suburbanartists]

Joe says "If a man points to the moon why look at his thumb"

Why not?. Maybe i will look at his thumb, his fingers, his fist, his face. Maybe his expression will make looking at the moon even more fantastic. Maybe it will ruin it.

Maybe i'll pre judge the man by his tattered clothes, or maybe his armani suit will turn me off and i won't even look up.

Maybe the moon itself just doesn't do it for me.

That's just the deal. Sorry you don't like it.

Maybe artists shouldn't have names so everthing can be judged and seen equally. That would be fine with me. But i'm just a scrub pointing at the sun.

[jOe~]

Sorry you don't like it. No skin off my nose. I think the point of it , the meaning, the read, the feel, should trump/dominate concerns about matters that are really unrelated to the result. Its about being in the moment, keeping your eye on the ball and not worrying about the umpire or whether the bat was made in China. Its about enjoying the game more.

[evaldart]

It will be understood by more advanced humans in the future that Richard Serra provided us all with with a chance to assess and experiece our situation as physical beings as it relates to form, matter and gravity; something no other artist has done - and way more important than religion, politics or the ant-like meanderings of cultures and nations. Its not about steel or ships or massive machines or stellar rigging undertakings or minimalism or modernism or any of the things that the slef-created scribblers notate.
As far as his own writings interviews and lectures - they are exceedingly intelligent but not without their own amount of MFA damaged fluff. The imortant thing is that he brought these things into being - unique and potent forms that prove to me that "Life" needn't be anything that wriggles or bleeds, or anything that considers right and wrong, or even anything that supposes that its own unique predicament has caught the attention of entities familiar or unknowable. Serra's is the art that the aliens posess - the ones so advanced that they realize bothering to build spaceships is an unnecessary waste of valuable time.

[jOe~]

Dang evaldart.

That
was
a
very
cool
review.

The last line is a killer of the first degree. As Clint would say, "Makes my day".

[jOe~]

I keep coming back an re-reading it. Effin zen master with a sniper rifle.

[StevenW]

Serra's is the art that the aliens posess....

If you've never seen the Forbidden Planet (circa 1950's) it's the best Sci-Fi movie ever made IMHO.. There is little doubt in my mind he would have had ample opportunity to see this movie as a kid and if by chance he did, he just might have taken the brain boost himself. :)

[evaldart]

Dang evaldart.

That
was
a
very
cool
review.

The last line is a killer of the first degree. As Clint would say, "Makes my day".
Does that mean you'll forgive me the next time I post about the importance of Whoppers and cheap beer in regards to human existence and the plight of the individual?

[jOe~]

I never commented on that, but I guess you could see me sticking my finger down my throat and making puke faces. I just hope there isn't a next time. But now that I think about it, did you mean the candy called Whoopers and import beer thats on sale?

[GlennT]

It will be understood by more advanced humans in the future that Richard Serra provided us all with with a chance to assess and experiece our situation as physical beings as it relates to form, matter and gravity;

So, before Serra, there was no such chance?

something no other artist has done -

I will concede that he has done it differently. If I weren't about to go to bed I would come up with examples just as moving in that arena. "The Fountain of Time " by Lorado Taft, and some works by Einar Jonnson come to mind.

and way more important than religion, politics or the ant-like meanderings of cultures and nations.

Eh? :confused:


The imortant thing is that he brought these things into being - unique and potent forms that prove to me that "Life" needn't be anything that wriggles or bleeds, or anything that considers right and wrong, or even anything that supposes that its own unique predicament has caught the attention of entities familiar or unknowable.

Eh? :confused:

Serra's is the art that the aliens posess - the ones so advanced that they realize bothering to build spaceships is an unnecessary waste of valuable time.


Evaldart, I think the aliens slipped something potent in your cheap beer!

[suburbanartists]

It will be understood by more advanced humans in the future that Richard Serra provided us all with with a chance to assess and experiece our situation as physical beings as it relates to form, matter and gravity; something no other artist has done - and way more important than religion, politics or the ant-like meanderings of cultures and nations.


Serra's is the art that the aliens posess - the ones so advanced that they realize bothering to build spaceships is an unnecessary waste of valuable time.


And i thought he was just a metal guy rippping off a Cristo Wrap. Silly me.

[ironman]

Hi, Evaldart, joe~ was right, that's a great review of the Serra show and you are "right on" about the work. I never thought I'd be as moved and influenced as I was when walking in and around Serra's work at MOMA.
GlennT, You obviously didn't see the show, did you? Have you ever walked in, around and through a Serra sculpture?
Suburbanartists, I know you saw the Serra show and you're certainly entitled to your opinions but, "ripping off a Christo wrap", ??
How so?
One wraps objects, puts up curtains, etc. making you aware of or curious about what's behind or under there?
The other makes huge curved shapes or tilted arcs, etc. making you aware of what you thought was empty space, putting you in closer touch with your immediate environment.
Have a great day,
Jeff

[jOe~]

Evaldart, I think the aliens slipped something potent in your cheap beer! Well let me start by saying that whatever it was, I want a life time supply and the IV drip line installed now. Seriously.

Glenn, you are superb at commenting about life like, realistic sculpture. I bow to your ability. In this case of evaldart's review, you didn't know how to cross the street by your self. Pedestrian comments, such as historical examples, are the equivalent of knowing some of the the things not to do when the stop light is red. We are talking about walking on the moon here. I don't expect many people to understand that. Its kind of out of body. Like I said on an other thread a day or two ago, Henry Moore did the same thing to me in 1971. That is what the greatest art can accomplish. Thats why I prefer abstract. The rules of gravity and Newtonian physics don't apply. Sir Arthur Eddington was on to it when he commented , the universe is not only stranger than we imagine, it's stranger that we can imagine.

[GlennT]

What a blow to my healthy ego to have my perspective so lightly dismissed!
Not to mention the lack of faith in my ability to expereince those Serra spaces by projecting my consciousness inside them after seeing the pictures.

While I admit that a number of them are cool to experience, and it is great to be so inspired by works of art, I was responding more to the religious fervor that had crept into the descriptive verbiage. I want to protect Evaldart from a too hard to control out of body experience if he were to actually go to a huge, impressively scaled place like the Great Wall of China, or Brasilia, where Oscar Niemeyer was not only playing with form, space, and gravity, but also doing it earlier than Serra, with a broader pallette of materials ( and much more visually pleasing ) than just rusted steel.

Perhaps it is my pedestrian bias kicking in when I look at Serra's work and still see gravity and Newtonian physics at work, albeit cleverly stretched. and I'm not quite ready to concede that the depth of spiritual consciousness that the world and I have been blessed to experience is overshadowed by these rusted steel forms, that appear huge and impressive when standing inside of them, but much less so when seen from the perspective of a bird.

For manipulation of space in an exalting way, I recommend Frank Lloyd Wright's Taliesen East, the Taj Mahal, the Temple of Luxor, Karnak, Borobudur, Angkor Wat, Cordoba's hall of columns, and the woods in my backyard at dusk. I realize that these places are not like walking on the moon, but I prefer other celestial spheres to the moon anyways.

Anyways, that is my little bit of cold water to add to the gushing geyser of praise for Serra. Back to the figurative stuff, where my quaint attempts to explore the realm of spirit through the human form aren't as overwhelming to my limited psyche as the power of well-curved planar geometry.

[jOe~]

I was responding more to the religious fervor that had crept into the descriptive verbiage Yeah, thats my religion you're bumping into there fella.Perhaps it is my pedestrian bias kicking in when I look at Serra's work and still see gravity and Newtonian physics at work Your looking at the man's thumbs and he's pointing at the moon. Remember that one. You complimented me on that a couple days ago. But I did compliment you too in this last post. Take what we can get, compliments, and meanings from art. I'm biased toward Quantum physics.

[jOe~]

importance of Whoppers and cheap beer in regards to human existence and the plight of the individual? So coming back to the plight of the individual. I just read in the morning paper that Swat teams descended on the local prison because inmates were getting rowdy after getting drunk on a concoction of hand sanitizer and Kool-Aid. P.M. me if you want to know the brand of hand sanitizer.

[JasonGillespie]

Speaking of intellectualizing rock and roll....

The commentary on Serra begins to sound a lot like some sort of artistic gnosis.....only a few are enlightened enough to "get it". (I doubt.)

While I applaud the man's efforts to create a unique experience...a new experience within the context of sculptural/architectural spaces, I don't personally think he is more significant than the builders of the Great Pyramid, the Pantheon, the Parthenon, York Minster, etc.... They were the first artists who "provided us all with with a chance to assess and experience our situation as physical beings as it relates to form, matter and gravity".

Don't misunderstand me...I'm not making a historical/contemporary comparison..that would be the superficial reading. I am a fan of Serra's work and enjoy the interactions one has when around it. But if what Newton said is true...that he saw further because he stood on the shoulders of giants,...then Serra, who personally I would not equate with Newton, has most undoubtedly stood on the shoulders of the giants who actually defined the possibilites of material as they relate to our reality.... our gravity and space.

Serra toys with these possiblities...in an intriguing way no doubt. He has piqued our sensibilities as to how we can relate to forms differently...in many ways following in the footsteps of the sort of giants of architecture I refer to.

To say his work is "way more important than religion, politics or the ant-like meanderings of cultures and nations" sounds a bit like "MFA damaged fluff" to me though. Just an opinion mind you.

[evaldart]

Jason, plenty of people "get it" or Serra would not occupy the "Most famous living sculptor" position so firmly. So its no secret. And you seem "get it" just fine. But comparisons to architecture and architects I believe will lead you down the wrong path of interpretation of his work. Pyramids and buildings and battleships and bridges are all aesthetically diminished by their functions. Sculpture, like painting, is for experiencing through your eyes...nothing else (though I like to touch it whenever possible). If you can walk over it or bring a damn chair into it you have defiled it, contaminated it, humiliated it by servitude. "MFA-damaged fluff" is a preoccupation of all artists - it is how you deal with not being in the studio. Lets you keep working even if your at the dinner table...might cause a divorce or drive your children towards careers as doctors or lawyers. :D

[GlennT]

But comparisons to architecture and architects I believe will lead you down the wrong path of interpretation of his work. Pyramids and buildings and battleships and bridges are all aesthetically diminished by their functions.

This could be the basis of an interesting discussion. By your definition, aesthetics is an intellectual phenomena. Otherwise, function would not matter. If it dimishes the aesthetic, it is because the mind interprets it that way.

I believe aesthetics to be a more transcendant phenomena, in which case, as to a bird or an alien mind that has no comphrehension of an object's function, the pure aesthetic of the object is equally significant for a work of architecture as for a piece of sculpture.

If I mention the Parthenon, the chances are you first imagine the beauty of the building rather than any of its specific sculptural groups. The aesthetic of that perfectly formed structure has transcended the ordinary realm of "building" and created an immortal impression, call it the aesthetic of the pinicale of Greek Architecture. That will always be significant and undiminished whether the Parthenon was a temple to Athena, a munitions storage depot, a home for pigeons and tourists, or an empty shell giving testament to days of splendor and glory.

[evaldart]

great point Glenn, it is true that things not brought into being purely for the lavish purpose of visual/intellectual enrichment can persevere beyond their function and can replace or become Art. And this is probably a very personal and specific experience of that visual entity. I hold the Pulaski Skyway tothis elevated standard. Drove over it thousands of times without crushing its beauty or or devaluing it as an artistic marvel.

[JasonGillespie]

evaldart,

I'd have to say I don't see the distinctions between sculpture and architecture that you do. Obviously they are different in some crucial ways, but their relationship is long and way more complicated than you make it sound. To me the ways in which they overlap and blend make it hard to see how one is diminished and another isn't.....from usage alone. Too arbitrary a distinction for me. Many great works of art have been created for propaganda purposes, to decorate, or to add prestige and status. Does that sort of "function" diminish them? If you aren't a hypocrite it should. Very few "pure" art forms out there if you take that tact.

As if one can't create functional art?!
Now as is my usual, I will make distinctions in quality...for me a more consistent barometer and it avoids snubbing artistic creations that would be overlooked by purist criteria.

To me Serra's work is inherently architectural...which isn't pejorative in my mind. He takes ideas that are architectural in nature and gives them a new voice.

[Mr. Malloy]

It sounds to me like every one is right but we're dealing with the existential delema of modernism still interfering with existential phenomenology. I love the dialogue here. My perogative is to access a visual experience in the viewer of my piece. I think that all sculpture can cause an expierience that is pre-thought and I believe that intellectualizing a "cause" into what is "meant by" this piece, brings it down in experience. therefore, I am not interested in "representative" art. I am not trying to make an exact copy of some nature form. I am building an experience to be had. As soon as some one says to me "I can see a bird in that abstract form." "you were trying to make a bird huh?" Then My piece is not working, not necessarily my fault. I know we are geared to label everything (since Freud). And we live in the Western World that has diminished ART in the name of commercialism and I have to survive somehow. But hey! thats why I do not "market" my stuff. I would love to get regognized but I feel, making for their approval is not making art for art's sake.
I also know that I am partly hypocritical as I have not "produced" anything good in a while. I do have a big piece now that I would like to show in the local "ArtsWalk" they're having soon. But I know that small towns like mine think that art is polished "fine art" or water-colors of flowers. I know this because that all the so called Galeries, have. And my piece is twentyfive feet long on a trailer and ten feet tall and at least that wide. It is largely nondefine-able, and yet to view it is an experience. It is all steal and at least a couple tons. I am fixing to tow it to town and park it there with a sign that says ANTI-ART. My ethics are aligned with the DADA movement that said "in order for you to like art, it must be an image that you recognize from a long time ago." This is included because the conversation went near the topic of not seeing the sculpture before the "building" or usefull object.

[GlennT]

I think that all sculpture can cause an expierience that is pre-thought and I believe that intellectualizing a "cause" into what is "meant by" this piece, brings it down in experience.

It may bring YOU down, but it is a bit presumptious to think that it does so for everyone else.

therefore, I am not interested in "representative" art. I am not trying to make an exact copy of some nature form.

Neither is that the purpose of most figurative art. The purpose is to express an IDEA, clothed in recognizeable form, which in any case is not an exact copy but rather an interpretation.

I am building an experience to be had.

Join the club. So is everyone else.

As soon as some one says to me "I can see a bird in that abstract form." "you were trying to make a bird huh?" Then My piece is not working,

Isn't that odd...you want people to have an experience, but you want to define that experience for them?

not necessarily my fault. I know we are geared to label everything (since Freud).

Seems this happened thousands of years before Freud. Freud just wanted most of the labels to be about sex.

But I know that small towns like mine think that art is polished "fine art" or water-colors of flowers. I know this because that all the so called Galeries, have. And my piece is twentyfive feet long on a trailer and ten feet tall and at least that wide. It is largely nondefine-able, and yet to view it is an experience. It is all steal and at least a couple tons. I am fixing to tow it to town and park it there with a sign that says ANTI-ART.





It must be tough being a prophet unrecognized in his own land!

[Mr. Malloy]

I'm with Joe, arriving at something that I did not at all expect to see is the real thrill - sometimes I'm flabbergasted and sometimes disappointed. But going through the motions on a prediction or plan kind of makes it real W-O-R-k...I'd much rather it be a laborious flight of fancy.
I'm with evaldart, as I think I usually am. I like to think that when I am in process (of art making) that I do not have a "finnished product" in mind because that takes away the creative process for me. When I let it happen, it builds itself and I am a medium and I do not know what its going to evolve as.

[Bentiron]

I have NO thought as to what anyone else thinks or cares about my work, just so long as the dogs like it.

[Chalice]

It seems to me that most artists make art because its a part of them and then they sell it so they can survive to make more. Kind of like selling little bits of your soul just to keep it intact, bit of a paradox really.

[suburbanartists]

Who says sharing part of your soul is bad?Kind of like selling little bits of your soul just to keep it intact, bit of a paradox really I could see that if someone were to buy your art as a "trophy". But most of us here are not famos and that would most certainly be an exception. Most people buy our / your art because they like it and how is that a bad thing? If they give a piece of your soul a good home you should be proud and your soul should be that much stronger.

Well that's what i think anyway.

[Famosart]

I have done commissions and self proclaimed works.I seldom refuse a commission. That is unless it has nothing to do with my passions and the nature of my artwork.
My best works come out of the love of the piece and whatever it is that moves me. Recently a good friend passed away and while working on another piece a idea formed of a spirits ascension and before i new it "ASCENSION' was forever in stainless.
Yes I believe some of the best and definately the most rewarding works come from the ebb and flow of passion and dreams.
Amos
www.famosart.com
resent artwork
http://gallery.mac.com/famosart#100032
http://gallery.mac.com/famosart#100024

[crosseyedreamer]

Que Serra Serra and here I am toiling away in obscurity...............................