Martian art...

[Araich]

Wouldn't that sea of red dirt make a great sculpture park?

[sculptor]

Wouldn't that sea of red dirt make a great sculpture park?

.....................................and all the little children could sing and dnce and play there

[fritchie]

Originally Posted by Araich:
Wouldn't that sea of red dirt make a great sculpture park?

...sculptor........................and all the little children could sing and dnce and play there

Yes and no. (Hate to pour rain, but I'm a scientist as well as a sculptor.) They would suffocate within a minute or so because the air pressure is less than one percent of what we have, and it is mostly carbon dioxide instead of partly oxygen. If that weren't enough, the soil seems to have properties similar to clothing bleach, and the ultraviolet in Martian sunlight would fry everyone’s skin much faster than in Southern California.

And for good measure, the highest temperature is barely above freezing, and the lowest each night is colder than dry ice (the frozen carbon dioxide that makes up much of the polar ice caps.)


But, the pictures ARE great! .... In a fantasy world, ....!

[Araich]

.....................................and all the little children could sing and dnce and play there
:confused:

[sculptor]

:confused: :confused:

my sense of humor has oft times landed me in trouble
:confused: indeed

and forgive the above typo------here is the missing "a"

[Araich]

Nah, you were right the first time. I think I must be a frustrated nerd who just desperately wanted to say the word Martian in a conversation. :D

What I was thinking looking at those Mars pictures was 'what was Anne saying about land sculpture in the desert?'.

[anne (bxl)]

breathless landscape!
let's ask scientists to find an appropriate solution just for sculptors to work and exhibit overthere in the future :D

[fritchie]

breathless landscape!
let's ask scientists to find an appropriate solution just for sculptors to work and exhibit overthere in the future :D

Polymer balloon suits with self-contained breathing apparatus. And they would work fine for children too. All we need is about $20 billion to get there. Pay your taxes and write your congressman!

[rderr.com]

Polymer balloon suits with self-contained breathing apparatus. And they would work fine for children too. All we need is about $20 billion to get there. Pay your taxes and write your congressman!


Frichie

I've a congress woman, and a light rail now thank you. and Anne probably has a congressperson. Polly Mier is an in-law of Golda?

Robert

[sculptor]

we (the species) may indeed be learning about the "greenhouse effect", as we type.
following which, if we learn our lessons well, we should be able to terraform mars in a couple centuries--------assuming we ain't extinct by then-----and there are a few pioneer spirits left-----and assuming the other 342,739 other prerequisits i ain't thought of can be learned-developed-etc.(unknown variable)
Then it'll be a cake walk.
meanwhile.........................there's always navada and some pigment-----

[fritchie]

we (the species) may indeed be learning about the "greenhouse effect", as we type.
following which, if we learn our lessons well, we should be able to terraform mars in a couple centuries--------assuming we ain't extinct by then-----and there are a few pioneer spirits left-----and assuming the other 342,739 other prerequisits i ain't thought of can be learned-developed-etc.(unknown variable)
Then it'll be a cake walk.
meanwhile.........................there's always navada and some pigment-----

I consider this greenhouse hype another example of media self-promotion, a la the David Hockney issue which just reactivated with another dose of truth. The Earth has been far warmer than it is now for the greatest part of its existence. After all, dinosaurs walked in both Alaska and Antarctica when they were alive, and they probably didn’t like subfreezing temperatures. (Ferns and other tropical were there, too. Some may say that the continents have wandered so far, these areas may have been near the equator back then, but that’s probably not so.)

[RuBert]

:cool: Scientists are bowled over by the spectacular quality of images the Spirit rover has sent from Mars, showing gray rocks peppering a Martian lake bed awash in its natural hues of red, pink and orange. "I think my reaction has been one of shock and awe," said team member Jim Bell.

Ok, "shock and awe" is a way over used term at this point, now describing everything from our military policy to Martian rocks.

What will we be in "shock and awe" about next?

I'm in shock and awe that the planet is getting warmer.

[sculptor]

:cool:

Ok, "shock and awe" is a way over used term at this point, now describing everything from our military policy to Martian rocks.

What will we be in "shock and awe" about next?

I'm in shock and awe that the planet is getting warmer.


shock and awe---kind of expresses my feelings during the annual mini ice age we have here in IOWA

I am delighted with the thought that the planet is getting warmer.
Ghia wants it that way.

Maybe, with our "green house" emissions-----which don't hold a candle to vulcanism, and may not even come up to the emissions from forest fires---we might be helping the earth to become a slightly warmer and more hospitable space ship. Just maybe.

Personally, I think the current hype about the greenhouse effect is in no small part exagerated by politically savvy scientists seeking funding. Most seem to conveniently ignore greater climate trends in their analisys......
Which does not mean that their researches will be meaningless.
So we learn--------maybe--------maybe we turn into good husbands of this space ship earth-----maybe the hype aids awareness----and caring----and will lead to an overall "greater good". ("yea right, what are the odds".....he said in a ,not so, rare moment of cynicism)

Warm enough to soften my clay would be nice. so warm it melts the statues would really suck.

;)

[Araich]

Well, we are experiencing record high temperatures (over 117F) and prolonged drought (many years).
I too believe that there is hype in the media - but I'm also not naive enough to think that billions of cars and coal power plants make no difference.
One positive is that the ozone hole (as far as I understand it) has stabilised, since we also have the highest rate of skin cancer in the world, I'm happy for this.

[waveshop]

From what I learned in Geography the last ice age was around 15,000-30,000 years ago and the earth tends to have ice sheet coverage about every 50,000 years. I agree that the warming trend due to ozone depletion is overly hyped. We havent even hit the half way mark inbetween ice ages. Theoreticaly it should keep getting warmer for the next 20,000 years. Well beyond the last drop of carbon based fossil fuels, Im sure.

I wonder if there will be good surf spots out at the US's Eastern Seaboard Continental shelf. lol

Sculpture on Mars.... cool. How about the face that was in "Mission to Mars" or was it "Red Planet". A big shiny stainless steal tribal mask as big as a football field. Petina'ed, it would blend right in. lol. What a canvas for installations. Nice thought.

[fritchie]

...deletions ...
Sculpture on Mars.... cool. How about the face that was in "Mission to Mars" or was it "Red Planet". A big shiny stainless steal tribal mask as big as a football field. Petina'ed, it would blend right in. lol. What a canvas for installations. Nice thought.

That Face on Mars was photographed in much higher resolution by the Mars Odyssey camera shortly after it arrived about 3 - 4 years ago, and as might be expected, it is an eroded mesa or plateau that happened to catch the light just the right (or wrong?) way the first time. Clouds in the sky again, a la the jwebb serpentine discussion.

I do like the idea of sculpting there, though.

[Stephen Casey]

My good friend Rudy Dominguez age 59 started working at the McMerdough (sp?) bas at the south pole. One week after he got there They asked him to sign a 38 page waver. Or he had to catch the next plane out. That would be in about four months. (That is normal there.) The waver stated in brief that no one on the planet especially his employers would be held responcible for the high likelyhood that he would develop cancers at a far greater rate than normal. This was due in part that they had recently learned that there indeed was a hole in the southern ozone layer and it was "A duezzy." He signed it. He had looked forward too much to working there. Two fbi back ground checks and a lot of personal effort. The danger, exertion, and challenge of such duty thrilled him. Besides he got to race around the world with thirty other competitors from many countries. He came in fifth. It was a circle about twenty yards in radius and I think he said they went around a few times. This was years ago so I don't remember the details. He sent me pictures of the race, the base and of him feeding ambasidor pinquins, about four feet tall. He visited me in Tacoma after his first trip stateside. He was loving it down there, but he was glad he didn't talk me into going in the first place. He went back, he was a real globe trooter. We lost touch and I think he probably passed on. We had history so thats about theonly reason. But more to the point when I asked him about the mood when they brought out these addendum contracts, he said everyone was dead serious.

[obseq]

Your comments sparked some thought, Araich...

WhIle I was still an undergrad researcher for the Dept. of Planetary Science during my physics days, we had a simulated outdoor Martian landscape that was used to conduct mobility tests on prototype vehicles that were to be sent up.

Why not attempt to render an outdoor environment for a sculpture park as such? Imagine a completely red landscape or some other monochromatic shceme like Araich mentioned! Imagine one of Sculptorsam's ruddy giants!

There is quite a bit of land that is already decimated and could be reclaimed for such a purpose instead of collecting junk. No need to worry about uprooting trees and such . :D

[RuBert]

- A new study was released yesterday that seems relevant to the course of this topic. - Russ

(AP) -- Global warming could doom hundreds of land plants and animals to extinction over the next 50 years by marooning them in harsh, changed surroundings, scientists warn.

A sweeping new analysis enlisting scientists from 14 laboratories around the globe found that more than one-third of 1,103 native species they studied could vanish or plunge to near extinction by 2050 as climate change turns plains into deserts or alters forests.

Among the already threatened species that could go extinct are Australia's Boyd's forest dragon, Europe's azure-winged magpie and Mexico's Jico deer mouse.

The researchers concede there are many uncertainties in both climate forecasts and the computer models they used to forecast future extinctions. But they said their dire conclusions may well come to pass if industrial nations do not curtail emissions of greenhouse gases that trap heat in the atmosphere.

"We're already seeing biological communities respond very rapidly to climate warming," said Chris Thomas, a conservation biologist at the University of Leeds in England, and the study's lead author.

The findings by Thomas and 18 other researchers appear in Thursday's issue of the journal Nature.

Other scientists said the conclusions should prompt conservationists to begin weighing the impact of rapid, wide-ranging climate change as they assess the future of species, particularly those already in trouble.

Alastair Fitter, a University of York ecologist who was not involved in the research, said today's chief extinction culprits are deforestation and the impact of invasive species. Climate change will only hasten the demise of some species, he said.

"I think this is going to be third horseman in that particular apocalypse," said Fitter, who has documented how global warming is forcing some spring flowers to bloom increasingly early in Britain.

Lee Hannah of Conservational International, a co-author of the paper, said it may be shortsighted to simply set aside a preserve to protect a particular species but allow the destruction of surrounding habitat. "We may find in the future that species will only find suitable climatic conditions somewhere else," he said.

[Araich]

It should also be said that rising global temperatures does not necessarily mean rising local temperatures. You could just as well get floods and snow storms as drought and sunburn. Or both.

In my next large scale sculpture I may well include an upturned dish, so that I can at least stand under it whatever comes.

Me and the Boyd's Forest Dragon.

[JAZ]

Regarding Spirit rover's exploits, I think it's awesome. The film we saw on Nova gave a good picture of the difficulties faced and the images sent back, the ones I've seen anyway, are awesome. A giant sculpture park! And no worries about vandalism (not yet anyway. Just wait until a few people get there, though.).
When I read people's comments I think of a place I've been. Have any of you been to the Burning Man festival in the Black Rock desert of Nevada? The Black Rock Desert is the largest flat expase of land in the USA - a dried alkaline lakebed 400 square miles in area. And when I say flat, I mean not even one pebble. It makes Mars look like an oasis. There is just the flat land with not one stick or pebble and just the pattern of dry cracks beneath your feet. I spent four days camping there (with 10,000 other artsy types) with my daughter and one of her roommates a few years ago and in that time I did not see one insect or animal. There was one bird that went by, but it was flying straight across, non-stop.
Regarding the greenhouse effect, I live through winters of snow and ice too (It's zero degrees F. today), but there's more to this than making us more comfortable. For example, the polar ice caps are melting. That means the sea will rise. (It also changes the salinity). I live about ten miles inland from the Atlantic. If things continue as they are now, maybe in my lifetime my home will be beachfront property. That wouldn't be a good thing for the hundreds of thousands of people who now live on the coast, would it?
There's an expression: "Forests precede man, deserts follow him."

[waveshop]

Oh my bag,........ Jaz is right. the Atlantic continental shelf surf spots were during the last ice age. Ok,..... so I wonder if there will be good breaks in our state capital, Raliegh, NC. lol.

[fritchie]

- A new study was released yesterday that seems relevant to the course of this topic. - Russ

(AP) -- Global warming could doom hundreds of land plants and animals to extinction over the next 50 years by marooning them in harsh, changed surroundings, scientists warn.

[deletions]

Lee Hannah of Conservational International, a co-author of the paper, said it may be shortsighted to simply set aside a preserve to protect a particular species but allow the destruction of surrounding habitat. "We may find in the future that species will only find suitable climatic conditions somewhere else," he said.

Russ - I saw this. It was summarized in the NYT today. The British are big on Kyoto, but obviously I think it is a mistake. The British, by the way, also are assembling a genetic databank of seeds, the scope of which I am not sure - food crops, wildlings, etc. I think that is the way to go.

The geological record shows great swings in weather and climate across the ages, from glaciers covering North America and Europe, but not eastern Asia or clearly Africa, to tropical conditions worldwide. Humans tend to want things to stay just as they are at the moment. But remember the lesson of forest fires in the western U. S. over the last two decades - trying to protect forests by prevent fires from burning just caused more damage when things no longer could be controlled.

Life is very robust and creative. Just look at the Galapagos Islands, or the diversifications that have occurred worldwide after 90 to 95 percent of species have been eliminated at least several times by meteor strikes. Of course, sudden changes would be difficult, but life just seems to keep going.

[jwebb]

...mix a little grog in with that red clay and I bet it'd fire up nicely at about a cone 06....

[fritchie]

Russ - By coincidence, the BBC Science site has the following article posted today.

"UK seeds near conservation goal
British botanists are celebrating 2004 certain they are near their goal of saving the seeds of all UK plants. The Millennium Seed Bank project says it must find two more species to reach its target of protecting all the UK's seed-bearing flora from disappearing. Extinction threatens more than 300 UK wild plants, and a quarter of all the world's plants could vanish by 2050. The bank, opened in 2000 in southern England, is one of the world's most ambitious conservation projects so far." - With other materials -

[RuBert]

Following is a shortened version of an unclassified pentagon report exploring the possible effects of global warming based on the polar ice record, from a think-tank study group looking into the geopolitical implications. – My reaction is that some in the government are taking the possibility seriously, perhaps more than they let on.

-------

A total shutdown of the ocean conveyor might lead to a big chill like the Younger Dryas, when icebergs appeared as far south as the coast of Portugal. Or the conveyor might only temporarily slow down, potentially causing an era like the "Little Ice Age," a time of hard winters, violent storms, and droughts between 1300 and 1850. That period's weather extremes caused horrific famines, but it was mild compared with the Younger Dryas.

For planning purposes, it makes sense to focus on a midrange case of abrupt change. A century of cold, dry, windy weather across the Northern Hemisphere that suddenly came on 8,200 years ago fits the bill—its severity fell between that of the Younger Dryas and the Little Ice Age. The event is thought to have been triggered by a conveyor collapse after a time of rising temperatures not unlike today's global warming. Suppose it recurred, beginning in 2010. Here are some of the things that might happen by 2020:

At first the changes are easily mistaken for normal weather variation—allowing skeptics to dismiss them as a "blip" of little importance and leaving policymakers and the public paralyzed with uncertainty. But by 2020 there is little doubt that something drastic is happening. The average temperature has fallen by up to five degrees Fahrenheit in some regions of North America and Asia and up to six degrees in parts of Europe. (By comparison, the average temperature over the North Atlantic during the last ice age was ten to 15 degrees lower than it is today.) Massive droughts have begun in key agricultural regions. The average annual rainfall has dropped by nearly 30% in northern Europe, and its climate has become more like Siberia's.

Violent storms are increasingly common as the conveyor becomes wobbly on its way to collapse. A particularly severe storm causes the ocean to break through levees in the Netherlands, making coastal cities such as the Hague unlivable. In California the delta island levees in the Sacramento River area are breached, disrupting the aqueduct system transporting water from north to south.

Megadroughts afflict the U.S., especially in the southern states, along with winds that are 15% stronger on average than they are now, causing widespread dust storms and soil loss. The U.S. is better positioned to cope than most nations, however, thanks to its diverse growing climates, wealth, technology, and abundant resources. That has a downside, though: It magnifies the haves-vs.-have-nots gap and fosters bellicose finger-pointing at America.

Turning inward, the U.S. effectively seeks to build a fortress around itself to preserve resources. Borders are strengthened to hold back starving immigrants from Mexico, South America, and the Caribbean islands—waves of boat people pose especially grim problems. Tension between the U.S. and Mexico rises as the U.S. reneges on a 1944 treaty that guarantees water flow from the Colorado River into Mexico. America is forced to meet its rising energy demand with options that are costly both economically and politically, including nuclear power and onerous Middle Eastern contracts. Yet it survives without catastrophic losses.

Europe, hardest hit by its temperature drop, struggles to deal with immigrants from Scandinavia seeking warmer climes to the south. Southern Europe is beleaguered by refugees from hard-hit countries in Africa and elsewhere. But Western Europe's wealth helps buffer it from catastrophe.

Australia's size and resources help it cope, as does its location—the conveyor shutdown mainly affects the Northern Hemisphere. Japan has fewer resources but is able to draw on its social cohesion to cope—its government is able to induce population-wide behavior changes to conserve resources.

China's huge population and food demand make it particularly vulnerable. It is hit by increasingly unpredictable monsoon rains, which cause devastating floods in drought-denuded areas. Other parts of Asia and East Africa are similarly stressed. Much of Bangladesh becomes nearly uninhabitable because of a rising sea level, which contaminates inland water supplies. Countries whose diversity already produces conflict, such as India and Indonesia, are hard-pressed to maintain internal order while coping with the unfolding changes.

As the decade progresses, pressures to act become irresistible—history shows that whenever humans have faced a choice between starving or raiding, they raid. Imagine Eastern European countries, struggling to feed their populations, invading Russia—which is weakened by a population that is already in decline—for access to its minerals and energy supplies. Or picture Japan eyeing nearby Russian oil and gas reserves to power desalination plants and energy-intensive farming. Envision nuclear-armed Pakistan, India, and China skirmishing at their borders over refugees, access to shared rivers, and arable land. Or Spain and Portugal fighting over fishing rights—fisheries are disrupted around the world as water temperatures change, causing fish to migrate to new habitats.

Growing tensions engender novel alliances. Canada joins fortress America in a North American bloc. (Alternatively, Canada may seek to keep its abundant hydropower for itself, straining its ties with the energy-hungry U.S.) North and South Korea align to create a technically savvy, nuclear-armed entity. Europe forms a truly unified bloc to curb its immigration problems and protect against aggressors. Russia, threatened by impoverished neighbors in dire straits, may join the European bloc.

Nuclear arms proliferation is inevitable. Oil supplies are stretched thin as climate cooling drives up demand. Many countries seek to shore up their energy supplies with nuclear energy, accelerating nuclear proliferation. Japan, South Korea, and Germany develop nuclear-weapons capabilities, as do Iran, Egypt, and North Korea. Israel, China, India, and Pakistan also are poised to use the bomb.

The changes relentlessly hammer the world's "carrying capacity"—the natural resources, social organizations, and economic networks that support the population. Technological progress and market forces, which have long helped boost Earth's carrying capacity, can do little to offset the crisis—it is too widespread and unfolds too fast.

As the planet's carrying capacity shrinks, an ancient pattern reemerges: the eruption of desperate, all-out wars over food, water, and energy supplies. As Harvard archeologist Steven LeBlanc has noted, wars over resources were the norm until about three centuries ago. When such conflicts broke out, 25% of a population's adult males usually died. As abrupt climate change hits home, warfare may again come to define human life.

Over the past decade, data have accumulated suggesting that the plausibility of abrupt climate change is higher than most of the scientific community, and perhaps all of the political community, are prepared to accept. In light of such findings, we should be asking when abrupt change will happen, what the impacts will be, and how we can prepare—not whether it will really happen. In fact, the climate record suggests that abrupt change is inevitable at some point, regardless of human activity.

[JAZ]

[QUOTE=RuBert]Following is a shortened version of an unclassified pentagon report exploring the possible effects of global warming based on the polar ice record, from a think-tank study group looking into the geopolitical implications. – My reaction is that some in the government are taking the possibility seriously, perhaps more than they let on.

RuBert,
Scary scenario, but reassuring that someone does indeed seem to be aware of the repercussions. They documented this much at least.

[fritchie]

Russ - We know a lot about what has happened to the U. S. and Europe during the various Ice Ages, but I personally know almost nothing about how these climate variations affected the rest of the world. I do remember reading that at least the most recent ones bypassed Asia - the great mass of vegetation there, and presumably animal life as well, extends in an unbroken line far past the time when North American and European vegetation types were driven south or extinct.

My impression is that South America, Africa, and most of Asia were largely unaffected by this period of cold. The changes in both North America and Europe, of course, correlate with the conveyor belt of heat carried by the Gulf Stream from roughly Florida in the U. S. to the British Isles and Scandinavia on the edge of Europe. As far as I know the South Atlantic and all of the Pacific stayed very much as they are today, and the same is true for the lands bordering these bodies of water.

Anyone have good references?