In pictures: Man United's 1968 European Cup statue

[Merlion]

This is about European football (or soccer) Cup. I wonder if they should be in colored bronze.

In pictures: Man United's 1968 European Cup statue (http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/2008/05/29/in-pictures-man-united-s-1968-european-cup-statue-89520-20588011/)

May 29, 2008 A statue to commemorate the 40th anniversary of Manchester United’s first European Cup winning side was unveiled outside Old Trafford today.

The 'Holy Trinity' statue is the work of sculptor Philip Jackson, and stands opposite one of former manager Sir Matt Busby at the front of the stadium.

http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m3/may2008/2/6/352AB700-BB9A-3222-DC5AA404F0506D4D.jpg
Denis Law with Manchester United manager Sir Alex Ferguson
and Sir Bobby Charlton

Denis Law and Sir Bobby Charlton attended the ceremony, held 40 years to the day since they won the trophy. Law paid tribute to Best, who died in 2005.

"The only tragedy is that George is not here," he said....

[GlennT]

A study of inartistic fabric wrinkles.

[Aaron Schroeder]

Funny....how I sometimes agree with you.

[Merlion]

Do you mean their football shirts have to be ironed straight? See below, taken from here. (http://www.teambath.com/?page_id=77)

http://www.teambath.com/wp-content/uploads/Football%202%20(Small).JPG

[fritchie]

Re 2 and 4: Remember, this team was active about 40 years ago, before wrinkle-resistant fabric. However, I agree with GlennT on the artistry. Liberties with detail often can help. On the other hand, as has been said many times, the artist must balance his/her own conceptions with those of the patron(s).

[GlennT]

The wrinkles on the middle figure are not as bad, because they relate to the motion of the upraised arm, just a little overdone. But the ones on the left hand figure especially are atrocious. The ones on the right hand figure are just moderately awful. They do not help express the pose. The visula strength of their lines are way too dominant, and lacking grace.

Of course I'm not suggesting that there be no wrinkles. Just a better understanding of fabric, movement, flow, and as Fritchie has stated, artistic liberties. The photo Merlion has posted shows the temporary state of active movement, and even thus there is a balance between a few strong lines of folds, and a bunch more softer ones. In repose, there is even more softening of the lines. And if for some reason a photo could be found indicating differently, the artist still may use good sense to help the cause of composition. Or was the point to draw attention away from the faces?

[racine]

the problem here is that we are dealing with football, a sport the common man in uk gives more grace than religeon. therefore if the maker hadnt conformed with a famous photograph of a set of legendary soccer stars who also won the world cup in 1966, [more famous than 1066] he would have been lynched old west style ala FC.
however can i ask is there here also a prejudice against artistic unamerican sports? or is that because truly international sports that entertain the rest of the world dont appeal to the armchair american viewer who prefers troglodytic pinball sports without the amusing enlightenment of The Who?

[GlennT]

the problem here is that we are dealing with football, a sport the common man in uk gives more grace than religeon. therefore if the maker hadnt conformed with a famous photograph of a set of legendary soccer stars who also won the world cup in 1966, [more famous than 1066] he would have been lynched old west style ala FC.
however can i ask is there here also a prejudice against artistic unamerican sports? or is that because truly international sports that entertain the rest of the world dont appeal to the armchair american viewer who prefers troglodytic pinball sports without the amusing enlightenment of The Who?


What the heck was that all about?

First, soccer is big here, not to the level of other traditional American sports, but ever rising. Our US women have the most successful soccer program of any nation. And, as for me personally, I am the captain of two coed soccer teams, and have been playing for 11 years . It is my favorite sport. Since I have led the charges against the artistry of the garment folds here, you may want to reconsider your " prejudice" theory.

Second, and more important; I don't care if the sculpture depicts soccer players, three bishops, the Beatles, or the Three Musketeers. The drapery is poorly sculpted. Work from a photo...so what? The sculpture needs to look like these guys, but the guys are not the folds in their garments. If you can't "confrom" to a photo without making intelligent adjustments for the sake of art, what does that say about artistic integrity?

It says, as per my post #2, " A study of inartistic fabric wrinkles".

[Merlion]

Are we still talking about the fabric wrinkles on the statues?

After a football game, the players' shirts are all wet with sweat and expected to be stuck to the bodies and cannot be kept straight.

Anyway, I think this image is what the fans like to see in their football heros.

[chris 71]

the fabric wrinkles to me look like they are all wet like they just got out of a pool maybe they had just been sprayed with Champaign just before the photo or maybe like Merlion said there soaked in sweat after a game

[evaldart]

Glenn's dead on. The sculptors distraction with the wrinkles do nothing to take this piece of figuration to a higher level. Their mis interpretation only serves to distract the viewer from allowing the piece to be even a decent illustration. And if we must have art that leaves us only thinking about soccer (it could have been so much more...glory, achievement, human physical excellence...) at least it should serve that purpose well. Its a sculpted snapshot, an expensive calender page, a flashy manequin served better by its placard that by its presence as a staue.

And regarding the issue of american sports...I am a baseball fan, and the hitting of a 90-plus mph fastball is only achievable by a very small portion of human beings - makes it a worthwhile and amazing spectacle. And the NFL (real football) certainly contains within its membership the most magnificent of all human specimens. The combination of size, strength and speed is unchallenged by any other sport in the world...let alone one that only employs HALF the body. Were I to be relegated to an armchair, and force-fed chips and beer, THESE are the sporting events I would want to have baking my eyeballs.

[GlennT]

Well said evaldart. I forgot to mention the issue of transcendance, since the flaws were at such a basic level.

I should also have stated that soccer is my favorite sport to play. I love watching American football not just for what you mentioned but also because of the stragedy involved. It is also the sport where the most differences of body types and personalities are combined to blend their specific skills as an effective team. Until finding soccer it was my favorite sport to play as well, I once played on a good amateur team in our Metrodome. I also used to play basketball nearly every day of good weather, and always travel with a basketball in the car, but then came soccer. One big element of the fun is that it is full of free-styling, improvisation, spontenaity, and lightning fast decision-making. These qualities should especially appeal to abstract artists!

A good team like mine who enjoy playing together and play as a team instead of a bunch of skilled individuals develops an unspoken level of communication that anticipates movement and the ball moves between players with skill and accuracy that is fun to be a part of. And when we goof -up a play, there is no blame between players, just the person who messed up wanting to do better next time.

I think that the sports venue that is the most fun to watch is women's soccer at the National team level or the WUSA (to be revived in 2009). It is certainly the classiest in terms of sportsmanship and the articulate, selfless commentary of the participants. These ladies don't have vainglorius egos, they love the game and it shows. Unlike professional men's soccer which involves a lot of pathetic acting trying to draw fouls and yellow cards, the women's game is a cleaner game full of finesse and better sportsmanship. The pace of the game also is more instructive to learn from.

[Giotto]

Philip Jackson is not a bad sculptor....

http://www.philipjacksonsculptures.co.uk/Large_works/index.htm

This work is not representive of what he is capable of doing. Knobby knees et. al. It was a bread and butter job and you can see his heart just wasn't in it, I also suspect this was a enlargement which if your not careful will amplifly minor issure into major ones.

G

[chris 71]

thanks for the link Giotto i enjoyed those much

[evaldart]

Philip Jackson is not a bad sculptor....

http://www.philipjacksonsculptures.co.uk/Large_works/index.htm

This work is not representive of what he is capable of doing. Knobby knees et. al. It was a bread and butter job and you can see his heart just wasn't in it, I also suspect this was a enlargement which if your not careful will amplifly minor issure into major ones.

G

Agreed Giotto, it is always best not to judge an artist by any single work, or even a body of work (we'va all done our share of stinkers). But its perfectly fine to form an opinion about One piece during a discussion...and regarding the enlargement issue, the jobbers who execute such certainly do not ever accomplish just what the artist intended. Such proceedings are always a compromise - so he took the money and let them have at it...hopefully there are other works or bodies of work being executed that are singular efforts - true and fulfilling beyond purchased benefits.

[racine]

ha ha..what fun... so glad footy is taken so seriously in the states, took a long time to happen though. i feel that with the increasing strength of the american team in world football its likely that they will be equally competing with the best next time around. baseball must have derived from rounders, its an old english game that looks similar however the bat is barely 2' long and 2" wide, try hit a cricket ball with that... but we did. also there are about six bases to get around so a lot of fun. my favourite as a kid was french cricket, as it could be played anywhere with as few as 4 kids and was fast and lively with lots of cheating.
of course all football games derived from an old english village sport which vied one village against another to get an inflated pigs bladder across to the opposing village centre. rugby school took it up and formalised it, many teeth were lost and still are.
i will reitterate that the artist above probably had zero choice, manchester united is uk's most revered team, its the holy of holies for a great population of unimaginitive highly conservative fans. anything that dont conform could likely be subject to severe unashamed prejudice. i also cannot believe in art as mere replication but i do sympathise with cases like this.

[GlennT]

of course all football games derived from an old english village sport which vied one village against another to get an inflated pigs bladder across to the opposing village centre.

Hey, man from China, I've got good news for you. They were playing a game like soccer back at least as early as the Sung dynasty, before 1200 AD. There is a painting from then depicting this. Possibly the old English village pre-dated this, but it would have been difficult to see, since it was the dark ages. Definitely no night games. More likely the Chinese were playing before even the Sung dynasty, and before the English.

I should also mention that Zengri, my teamate from China, is consistently the highest scoring member of my team. He is slightly overweight, looks deceptively unathletic, and he can dance through 4 defenders and score a goal before the other team can figure what just happened!

[evaldart]

Soccer was my game in 8th and 9th grade. Goalie in 8th, center forward in 9th. I became conditioned enough through soccer to end up pursuing cross-country and track/field by 10th grade. But I began to envy the throwers and their wonderful objects (a shot-put in the hand is a sculptor's dream) and decided that all the damn running was keeping me from proper accumulation of upper-body stregth. So I quit the running, ate more, lifted weights and otherwise let the dna fulfill its destiny. It was long in coming but I was eventually rewarded with super-powers that I decided should be used in the interest of Art - a far better thing for all of humanity than mere crime-fighting or tying the barrells of tanks into knots. The poets who have kept their noses in books, anemic by their lack of interaction with matter (the stuff of reality), are only living half a life.

[racine]

Hey, man from China, I've got good news for you. They were playing a game like soccer back at least as early as the Sung dynasty, before 1200 AD. There is a painting from then depicting this. Possibly the old English village pre-dated this, but it would have been difficult to see, since it was the dark ages. Definitely no night games. More likely the Chinese were playing before even the Sung dynasty, and before the English.
!

im sure the neanderthals played something like this too, its obvious. but if you want the modern 'ball' games evolution the point stands.
unfortunately the chinese though an astounding culture for invention were also very good at not developing those inventions, seems they were happy with the status quo. they invented glass but gave up as it was curious but not as good as ceramic, other uses simply didnt occur or appeal to the burocrats in charge. theres a wonderful book called 'the glass bathyscape' which suggests that the rise of the west and modernity is due in great part the development of glass. as for football if im honest it wouldnt bother me if it died out as is likely then in china.
as for my friend the man from america, good news.. i should point out that in those amusing terms that that continent came out of the dark ages somewhere around 1900?... soccer taking a bit longer.