Damien Hirst auction

[grommet]

one of many stories (http://www.smh.com.au/news/arts/damien-hirst-makes-whopping-100m-in-90-minutes/2008/09/16/1221330785259.html)
Hirst bypasses galleries and auctions original works with Sotheby's. Today is the second day of the auction. Should we pool our pennies?

[cheesepaws]

I love it! I hope the value of his legacy become incalculable. Perhaps that is his conceptual goal.

As far as pitching in to buy something - count me in.

*digs through pockets*

I have 34 cents in mixed coinage (mostly US), a bit of brightly colored fluff, what used to be a tissue and a small Lego (but it is a three-er - so that is probably worth a bit).

[evaldart]

Poor Hirst, he may well be remembered by some of the ants but he cannot find himself within the history of his own mind...let that be a lesson to us all.

[cheesepaws]

Poor Hirst, he may well be remembered by some of the ants but he cannot find himself within the history of his own mind...let that be a lesson to us all.

Is the lesson not to hit the sauce so early in the morning? Ants? History of his own mind? Wha???

[chris 71]

do you think he really needs thoughs really cool art glasses or are they part of the costume

[evaldart]

It is possibly one of the most self-inhibiting and self destructive acts an artist can commit to pander to the curiosities of culture. There is great misfortune...tragedy even, present in "contemporary" art whereby the doing individual thinks he is spearheading when he is actually in the back...sad baggage. Pitifully gullible, duped by his own culture. Masses, though, like their baggage - and like it better when its fancy - and have been known to treat it quite well. The moral of the story: carry yourself away.

Chris, they're saftey glasses...he's got money flying around him all over the place...wouldn't want to catch a thousand dollar bill in the eye.

[cheesepaws]

It is possibly one of the most self-inhibiting and self destructive acts an artist can commit to pander to the curiosities of culture.

Like the cave painters of early nomadic culture, the Greeks, the Romans, and all those Renaissance hacks (among many others).

Sorry Eval, from my vantage exploring the "curiosities of culture" is the point of the visual arts - all else is regurgitation or masturbation (or a sticky, messy combo of the two).

[chris 71]

will these guys really go down in the art history books with Rodin Picasso Michelangelo and others or 500 or 600 years from know will they be in other history books with pam anderson and paris hilton and captain kerk

[evaldart]

Cheese, The reason-for-Art has grown alongside the very special consciousness of mankind...consistently from the cave through antiquity and up into our time. ALWAYS changing. All along Art alone has ushered-in the progress - NOT culture. Culture is and has always been a symptom of dependence in the human experience. As we move so slowly in the right direction - the ART will change us into the things we should be...Not the buildings, pass-times and technologies. There is evolutionary momentum to the changes in what is and is-not regarded as Art - and it will be the exceptional (perceived possibly as the mutated) that will indulge in the most pertinent satisfactions. But it will require a leap of will and a pursuit of uncharted detachment. It is a culminating case of great masses of humanity unknowingly succumbing to a rare few.

Nice metaphor with the sperm and puke....(sigh), culture.

[cheesepaws]

will these guys really go down in the art history books with Rodin Picasso Michelangelo and others or 500 or 600 years from know will they be in other history books with pam anderson and paris hilton and captain kerk

Like Capt.Kirk - Rodin, Picasso, Michelangelo are all products of a peculiar construct called Art History. To some degree they are equally fictional (of course more recent artists like Picasso are better documented and therefore less a product of wishful or romantic embellishment).

Like Hirst - Rodin, Picasso, Michelangelo were notable artists in their day - celebs of a measure.

Is it the artist or the work that warrants inclusion into the hallowed pages of art history? Talent or the size of the patron's wallet? Is it wrong to measure an artist's success by sales and "buzz"? I'm not so sure.

[cheesepaws]

Cheese, The reason-for-Art has grown alongside the very special consciousness of mankind...consistently from the cave through antiquity and up into our time. ALWAYS changing. All along Art alone has ushered-in the progress - NOT culture. Culture is and has always been a symptom of dependence in the human experience. As we move so slowly in the right direction - the ART will change us into the things we should be...Not the buildings, pass-times and technologies. There is evolutionary momentum to the changes in what is and is-not regarded as Art - and it will be the exceptional (perceived possibly as the mutated) that will indulge in the most pertinent satisfactions. But it will require a leap of will and a pursuit of uncharted detachment. It is a culminating case of great masses of humanity unknowingly succumbing to a rare few.

Nice metaphor with the sperm and puke....(sigh), culture.

Hey! I've seen that episode. You know - the one where we become beings of pure energy. Life....but not was we know it. Beam me up, Eval! :p

All along Art alone has ushered-in the progress - NOT culture.

Can you help me with this quote? What is this separation between progress and culture? Perhaps we are simply using these words in (very) different ways.

[evaldart]

Sci-fi is just more culture. Fun indeed.

The problem with getting answers is that they depend upon communication methodologies - which will fizzle-out eventually.

Ball of energy, Hah, enlightened humans will always make vital use of their arms and legs (and they could still be balls of energy)...but if you see an artist that is NOT using them as he should ...well, that says something.

[Tlouis]

What Hirst is doing is as old as the hills.
It's called: Hucksterism. Kind of like the traveling snake oil charlatans of yore. Cut out the apothecary, sell directly to the gullible rubes. :(

Since he doesn't make art but a commodity,
I'm surprised his stuff isn't trading on the mercantile exchange. Or is it?

[jOe~]

Call me weak, call me a whore, call me whatever. I don't have that many years left on this planet and I wouldn't trade 100 million for a penniless place in art history. However if I did get that kind of dough I bet I'd get at least a foot note in the art of making money. Good enuff.

[evaldart]

[QUOTE=jOe~;65304]Call me weak, call me a whore, call me whatever. I don't have that many years left on this planet and I wouldn't trade 100 million for a penniless place in art history. However if I did get that kind of dough I bet I'd get at least a foot note in the art of making money. Good enuff.[/QUOT

There are episodes of intensity that can outlast eternity. And, "dead" and "dread" are the same word (stupid humans can't spell). legacies and footnotes are just predicted memories...the intended desire to be remebered nullifies the acts it took to get there. So there is no need to aspire to remembrence or a color-plate in the Jannsens ever-revised phone-book (Art Through the Ages).

As money goes - we will ALL, unfortunately, have to have some. So remember to pick some up every now and then.

[GlennT]

Translation/reconfiguration of what e-dart just said:

What a suprise it will be when some folks discover that their soul did not die, just a worn out body, and their consciousness is still there left holding the bag of a legacy of vapid works traded for a mess of potage and a passing glimmer of recognition.

How much better to have sincerely done the best one could do with what they were given to work with, and a life lived honorably.

[cheesepaws]

Sci-fi is just more culture. Fun indeed.

Right...perhaps...but they haven't yet. (I noticed you are still using words made strung together to convey ideas - even if said ideas are complex or confusing.)

How do you separate yourself from "culture" or cultural references? Is it possible in the here and now? Is it really something that you honestly aspire to or are you just projecting an assumed and inevitable transformation of “spirit”?

More importantly, if none of us are yet able to distance ourselves from our own cultures - why use the rejection of cultural references as a qualifier for judging Hirst?

[cheesepaws]

What Hirst is doing is as old as the hills.
It's called: Hucksterism. Kind of like the traveling snake oil charlatans of yore. Cut out the apothecary, sell directly to the gullible rubes. :(

Since he doesn't make art but a commodity,
I'm surprised his stuff isn't trading on the mercantile exchange. Or is it?

Does his financial success automatically make him a "huckster"? Why?

I think his work is just beautiful. I don't give a flip how many hands are involved in producing the work, how easy or hard it is to make, what it is valued at, how much Hirst profits, or how it is situated (or validated) by historians and critics. I am transported by his work and always impressed when I meet one face to face.

Are you reading the "labels" or looking at the work? Like it or don't like it - but it seems pretty narrow to dismiss an artist (or accuse them of being dishonest) simply for being successful. No?

[evaldart]

[QUOTE=evaldart;65296]Sci-fi is just more culture. Fun indeed. [QUOTE]

Right...perhaps...but they haven't yet. (I noticed you are still using words made strung together to convey ideas - even if said ideas are complex or confusing.)

How do you separate yourself from "culture" or cultural references? Is it possible in the here and now? Is it really something that you honestly aspire to or are you just projecting an assumed and inevitable transformation of “spirit”?

More importantly, if none of us are yet able to distance ourselves from our own cultures - why use the rejection of cultural references as a qualifier for judging Hirst?

Without "society", "community" and, as it it observed-upon, "culture", mankind, as we yet know it, is nothing but lion food. But our growing tendencies to pursue leisure and entertainment and spectacle (beyond just pleasure) betray a deviance within the individual for control over his WANTS as opposed to his NEEDS. It is possible to separate yourself from "culture" because your home and your job are not necessarily "places". You leave your culture during the instances that you do not give or take from them. You are in YOUR place when your doings have become isolated along with you in an instance of self-determination. Though your matter (material) may still posess the imprint of a "culture", and they love to claim it, you are secretly able to change and assemble and re-context it by creativity (NOT invention) and realize a growing, fruitful bewilderment.

The trifling rewards and perceived affluences achieved by Hirst and his ilk are only holding Art (and human development) back. Amid such weighty distraction I would be surprised if he could ever recover. But an human individual is never lost, by the virtue of his elevated awarenesses, so he might yet find some pertinence...but if so, he'll see it for himself in the mirror without the glasses on.

You see, Cheese, the asking of questions and the seeking of answers is a desperate act...leaves us hapless and victimized (upon close inspection). And solutions will only attempt to end our inquiries...or crush our wonder. It is not a TRANSFORMATION we Artists must be seeking, it is not a desire to nurture a "spirit" or any other meatless entity. We have the ability reach out at arms length, take whatever is there and "model" it into submission. Its all there - all the information, junk, Mona Lisas, thingamabobs, Super Bowls, and brouhahas - to SERVE us...not the other way around. And by us doing-so some poor sap might get a shot at it himself. But that is no concern of ours.

[suburbanartists]

Hirst is a Jack As.

Yeah remember the 50 mill. or what ever he said the skull went for. It was all bull. It was Hirst's money (or was it called a loan) just to jack up the headline price. I wouldn't be surprised if he or his boys bought most everything there. Sotheby's - they've certainly proved themselves readily available for price fixing.

[cheesepaws]

Hirst is a Jack As.

Yeah remember the 50 mill. or what ever he said the skull went for. It was all bull. It was Hirst's money (or was it called a loan) just to jack up the headline price. I wouldn't be surprised if he or his boys bought most everything there. Sotheby's - they've certainly proved themselves readily available for price fixing.

Whatever. You might have well simply said you think he is a scam artist because of the brand of smokes he prefers, his nationality or his height.

I just don't get slandering someone based on a perceived (mostly assumed) measure of financial success.

Do you like the work? Why - why not?

[chris 71]

so grommet where are you seems you dropped this one like a hot potatoe and ran. i guess your pretty busy with the steaming heap thread though :D:D

[jOe~]

Do you like the work? Why - why not?I like it because I'm an art whore. I'm easy. And I don't believe in abstinence. I think the money part of it is significant too.I don't have time to give a more intelligent answer.

[chris 71]

a more intelligent answer.

hell i couldnt even spell captain kerk right :eek::D

[grommet]

I can appreciate his thinking outside the box approach, much like the fun guy at the party that has all the bizarre ideas. But he (Hirst) actually does them (well, not actually, because other people do his work)... and perhaps that takes even more balls, so people gotta watch. They admire his audacity, and hold it up and aspire to have it. but the best they can do to show their audacity is to buy some of his. Tell your partner what you just bought for how many ever million-- that takes balls... Or perhaps the whole sale was another one of his pieces. His life is one continuing prank.
Living the life...

[Merlion]

Hirst is breaking new grounds by going for direct sale through auctions to global collectors, free from the strangle hold of art galleries. And from the first two days of sales, his idea works well, in spite of the global financial market crisis, see below.

Damien Hirst Skips the Middleman (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122161315980646011.html?mod=googlenews_wsj)

Sept 17, 2008 (Wall Street Journal) By the final fall of the gavel at Sotheby's sale of new works by Damien Hirst yesterday, the world's richest artist (reportedly worth more than $1 billion), was $172 million richer. That was the amount left from the $201 million total after subtracting Sotheby's commission and $6.2 million of charitable donations. But perhaps more important, Mr. Hirst was also comfortable in the knowledge he had made history.

Not only was it the largest single artist sale ever held, with 287 lots; it was a sale that courageously flouted the time-honored tradition in which galleries have had sole lien on the sale of an artist's latest works. ....

While some artists may have sold directly at auction before, none have done so in such quantity or in such a blaze of publicity. ...

[furby]

Just spending 23 mill on *anything* is a work of art in itself. Its an impulsive & brave - nay inconceivable - thing to do thats most akin to performance art. Imagine pulling out the chequebook, in slow mo... writing all those zero's, ripping out the cheque - pop pop pop of the perforations - they could make a movie!

And good on Hirst for doing whatever it is he does and for being a clever enough businessman to do the deals to make it work. There's plenty of boring millionaires out there who made themselves rich by dealing drugs/murder/banking, so someone who does it by making art, well it can only be the best way to do it, i guess...

[GlennT]

so someone who does it by making art,

Not meaning to open a can of worms in formeldehyde, but that is where I differ.

[suburbanartists]

Cheese - No don't like his stuff, not intrigued by it. But this thread was about the auction. He is from the a PT Barnum school and finding many suckers.

I think he is more like the winner of american idol, or next design star, they get their own shows, get big record deals, tons of TV time, money, and lots of people love them, but they really aren't that great. More like standard or below when put up against what are now their new peers.

If you want to follow the hype you'd do better with Michel Jackson. At least he could dance.

Don't hate me for not being part of the hype.

[jOe~]

if you want to follow the hype you'd do better with Michel Jackson. At least he could dance.

Don't hate me for not being part of the hype.I thought Michael Jackson had a bit of genius--don't' hate me for that. But I think the same of Hirst and there have been a couple really talented singers on the idol show. So like in my post below I don't believe in abstinence. I want to have as much intercourse with life as possible. I see amazing things everywhere. Of course there is a lot of crap too but no need to dwell on that.

[cheesepaws]

Cheese - No don't like his stuff, not intrigued by it. But this thread was about the auction. He is from the a PT Barnum school and finding many suckers.

I think you will find it hard to separate the auction from the artist and a discussion of his work. Many seem to ready to insult the man and/or the art in this thread as a critique of the auction's success.

For example...you imply that Hirst is a con-man. What makes someone who purchases Hirst's work through the auction a sucker?

I think he is more like the winner of american idol, or next design star, they get their own shows, get big record deals, tons of TV time, money, and lots of people love them, but they really aren't that great. More like standard or below when put up against what are now their new peers.

Naw - it is the opposite. Hirst is NOT being "voted in" by an uninformed and popular audience but rather by the very informed collectors, critics and historians (and a substantial population of peer artists) who like his stuff. The general public tends to really dislike Hirst's work - and the museums wisely capitalize on the sheer spectacle of repulsion to draw in visitors and add to the buzz.

Promotion is part of the job (except for those that approach it as a kind of crazy spiritual journey or noble quest for beauty…or purity…or something equally romantic.) If you had a good run of gallery shows and sales does that alone discredit you as an artist?

Hirst’s money is a tool just like any other – I can’t wait to see how he uses it. He is breaking new and exciting ground.

[cheesepaws]

I thought Michael Jackson had a bit of genius--don't' hate me for that.

I love Off the Wall - great LP.


Shamon...tee-hee-hee ***crotch grab followed by a one footed full-twist and then a moonwalk off in to the sunset***

[Ries]

Making decisions about Hirst's art by looking at pictures online is kinda like deciding about somebody's personality by looking at their porn pics- its mostly an exercise in fantasy.

I have the utmost respect for people who have seen Hirst pieces in person, and decide they cant stand em, and he is a charlatan...

Me, I have seen a dozen or so in real life, and they run the gamut- I think the dot and butterfly paintings are a thin idea, overdone to death, although the first time you see a butterfly painting, they do impress.
The sculptures, though, often move me- they deal with mortality and death in subtle but powerful ways- and I dont mean just because they are big dead animals.
In the Rubell Family Collection Space in Miami, there are several Hirst's, including a big glass and steel case full of medical apparatus- no flashy dead animals, but a powerful, creepy presence. I would have to say it succeeds at exactly the artist's intent.
Which, really, is the only way to judge an artwork- how well did they do what they set out to do?
Its kind of meaningless to try to judge a painting by the standards of a ceramic vessel, or an abstract expressionist piece by how well shadows are rendered- you need to evaluate it in its own language.

However, regardless what you think of Hirst as an artist, he was undoubtedly successful in skipping the dealers, and selling a couple hundred million dollars worth of art direct to collectors, on the day with possibly the worst financial news in a couple of decades.

Which is an interesting lesson- although it doesnt apply to 99.99% of the artists in the world.

Interestingly enough, Hirst puts his money where his mouth is- he collects a lot of contemporary art, by other artists, famous or not, that he likes.
If he really only cared about business, I doubt he would do that.

[evaldart]

True Ries, but its true of all of us, not just Hirst...it would be a more pertinent experience to behold the work at arms length in every case...there are sometimes physical tensions (or relaxings) that do not translate in secondary visual media. But we do the best we can by our tech method, here, for the sake of discussion ("talk" that kind-of echoes or mimics our present engagings...definitely worthwhile).

I have been in-front-of and amongst alot of Hirst in my day...and I cant say that the real thing is more meaningful to me. Not at all.

Tons of business people buy tons of art all the time...because they like it...and they do come in handy now and then.

[cooljamesx1]

[QUOTE=cheesepaws;65316][QUOTE=evaldart;65296] It is possible to separate yourself from "culture"

I'm surprised you think that. so much if not all of a person is their surroundings. I believe that everything we do and all art is a reaction to something, however abstracted or indirect. to try to find some little thread of common ground to try to get to as many people for as long as possible just makes the work boring. what is it about your experience that makes it unique? that is all you have, and you have to hope its meaningful to someone. If for you permanence or something like that is important than so be it. If pop culture has importance to an artist, to try to purify that from the work is only to kill the essence of it.

[cooljamesx1]

I have the utmost respect for people who have seen Hirst pieces in person, and decide they cant stand em, and he is a charlatan...


you don't have to respect people, you just have to tolerate them. hell I respect almost no one, and then only parts.:D

[cooljamesx1]

I think he is more like the winner of american idol, or next design star, they get their own shows, get big record deals, tons of TV time, money, and lots of people love them, but they really aren't that great.

hey the winner of american idol may not be a good "musician" or "artist", but they're sure as hell good at being a cog in getting people to watch tv.

I think I smell a lot of jealousy here...

hes probably watching a big tv right now. bastard.

this forum is becoming more and more unenlightening to me

[evaldart]

CJ,
It aint our fault your not getting your enlightenment...whassamatter, your "culture" shortchanging you...big suprise. Enlightenment doesn't come from grabbing and grubbing and giving-back... it comes from pushing it all away, getting it outta your hair, off your back and outta your SPACE. Then the enlightenment will have some room to grow around you. You'll need to eat alot of hearty experiences for breakfast, lunch and dinner - enjoy, but its just fuel (the Art only needs it for that, NOT content). Dessert will be the baseball game or the museum. So eat, work your matter, recover and then look in the mirror...you'll be beefy with enlightenment in no time.

Go and check out the painters forum, HAH!...you'll be right back here where you belong.

[jOe~]

I'm surprised you think that. so much if not all of a person is their surroundings.Unless you're maverick. I just had to say that. But anyway, many do step outside the box. That is why they get a lot of flack, press, notoriety, even success.

[grommet]

I'm surprised you think that. so much if not all of a person is their surroundings. I believe that everything we do and all art is a reaction to something, however abstracted or indirect. to try to find some little thread of common ground to try to get to as many people for as long as possible just makes the work boring. what is it about your experience that makes it unique? that is all you have, and you have to hope its meaningful to someone. If for you permanence or something like that is important than so be it. If pop culture has importance to an artist, to try to purify that from the work is only to kill the essence of it.

That's great, absorb all you can, get all the taste out of it. At some point, that all gels and maybe something else starts to grow, an unknown element, a sideways result of something that skidded off the table and landed in the dog dish, causing it to foam into something else, and who knows what that was. And maybe it's not unique, but it has the ring of truth to it, and an amazing clarity. It might be toxic waste, but you make it anyway, because to deny it would be like cutting your arm off.

I believe that everything we do and all art is a reaction to something...
Well sure, that's pretty dang general, so if you consider that we live one moment on top of another (quantum physics aside?) yeah, why not... this moment is next to the one before and the one after so influence each other, not to mention the burden of brain cells... we do have a bit of control in that mess, if we choose to.

[cooljamesx1]

Well sure, that's pretty dang general,

general yes but not undisputed...

[cooljamesx1]

Unless you're maverick. I just had to say that. But anyway, many do step outside the box. That is why they get a lot of flack, press, notoriety, even success.

in saying that a person is all their surroundings, I mean they are all the RESULT of their surroundings, in whatever form that may be...

[cooljamesx1]

CJ,
It aint our fault your not getting your enlightenment...whassamatter, your "culture" shortchanging you...big suprise.

being formed by your environment doesn't mean in any way that you become your environment, much less enjoy it...

[grommet]

in saying that a person is all their surroundings, I mean they are all the RESULT of their surroundings, in whatever form that may be...

like inside their head?
I think I am in Barbados right now, feel the balmy breeze?

[grommet]

being formed by your environment doesn't mean in any way that you become your environment, much less enjoy it...

well, if you're not enjoying it, why are you here? Is this your punishment for something?

[StevenW]

being formed by your environment doesn't mean in any way that you become your environment, much less enjoy it...

That's right, don't let the socio-bots sell you on any change crap or tell you that you have "potential" if you'd just be like "this" or "that", you be you and stick to your guns. Life is full of ups and downs and it's easy to fall in some kind of trap thinking that you're alone in a world of zombies. (You are in all reality, but that doesn't really matter). Once you get out of school you can ditch all that tolerate crap too, it's an important tool to navigate the sickly-sweet and oozing atmosphere of the politically correct university environment, but that's all. In reality it inhibits individuality, it's all a bunch of crap and if we all just sat around tolerating everything and everyone we'd be living like those same sociobotic zombies, just frightened, little, tolerant sheeple. :(

I'm no big fan of Hirst, but at least he didn't sit and live in his mom's basement smokin pot and feeling sorry for himself until he was 30, he got off his ass and did it his way.. Or had someone else get off their ass and do it his way,.. or whatever... :)

[grommet]

ditch all that tolerate crap too, it's an important tool to navigate the sickly-sweet and oozing atmosphere of the politically correct university environment, but that's all. In reality it inhibits individuality, it's all a bunch of crap and if we all just sat around tolerating everything and everyone we'd be living like those same sociobotic zombies, just frightened, little, tolerant sheeple.

Or perhaps you can live your life without becoming the a-----e that everyone lerns to despise and you die alone. Your choice. The fact is, you're not alone on this planet, and learning to understand (not just tolerate)things outside yourself can be insightful to things within yourself.
Tolerance is a non-issue if you allow understanding. You don't have to adopt their philosophy, just recognize the beauty in the variety, without which your quest for unique would be pretty impossible. You're limiting yourself in your own internal dialog by only going to a place where you don't have to tolerate anything but your own limited kernels of thoughts. Dare to hear.

[evaldart]

While it indeed shouldn't take-up much of your time to control whats thought of you, it can be nourishing to accidentally please someone now and again. In your unavoidable role as "participator", it can pay-off to figure out how to hang at the edges of assimilation. But its a slippery-slope...to much engagement and positive re-inforcement and you're lost amongst them...a paycheck or commission-grabbing busybody (happens all the time to people who were once artists...but lost it). Don't worry, you wont be allowed to separate as much as you like...so learn to upend a good shot of it (detachment) whenever you can.

[grommet]

it can pay-off to figure out how to hang at the edges of assimilation You mean hang on the edge of the toilet-bowl like one of those blue water things???
Wouldn't it be better to become an adept leaper and swimmer, using your understanding of the course to get to where you'd rather be?
Just a thought...

[StevenW]

Or perhaps you can live your life without becoming the a-----e that everyone lerns to despise and you die alone. Your choice. The fact is, you're not alone on this planet, and learning to understand (not just tolerate)things outside yourself can be insightful to things within yourself.
Tolerance is a non-issue if you allow understanding. You don't have to adopt their philosophy, just recognize the beauty in the variety, without which your quest for unique would be pretty impossible. You're limiting yourself in your own internal dialog by only going to a place where you don't have to tolerate anything but your own limited kernels of thoughts. Dare to hear.


Understanding and tolerating are two completely different things. Understanding is for historians and that's their job. Tolerating is for little old ladies who have a 30 year old son living in their basement without a job and smoking pot. I'll risk being hated and dying alone rather than ride the conveyor belt of conformity into oblivion. Why not, Hirst did it..

[jOe~]

Understanding and tolerating are two completely different things. Understanding is for historians and that's their job. Tolerating is for little old ladies who have a 30 year old son living in their basement without a job and smoking pot. I'll risk being hated and dying alone rather than ride the conveyor belt of conformity into oblivionWithout understanding and tolerance it seems you will have a lonely ride.

[StevenW]

Well if you're lookin to hold hands and sit indian style at woodstock with flowers in your hair and all that stuff then ya, I'll take the "lonely" road.

[jOe~]

Well if you're lookin to hold hands and sit indian style at woodstock with flowers in your hair and all that stuff then ya, I'll take the "lonely" road.
Here is the scary stuff, but you probably know this, those of use that did that stuff are everywhere now, only we don't call attention to ourselves in the same way. We're now hiding in cop uniforms, MD scrubs, scientist whites, preacher black, you name it. But about the hand holding, sorry I can't. Not because of your beliefs or that you're a guy, but you're too freekin tall. I had a girl friend once almost that tall,...what some guys will go through. Oh, by the way, she is a dentist(UCLA).

[cooljamesx1]

well, if you're not enjoying it, why are you here? Is this your punishment for something?

its inescapable. are you a little caught up on causality?

[cooljamesx1]

While it indeed shouldn't take-up much of your time to control whats thought of you, it can be nourishing to accidentally please someone now and again. In your unavoidable role as "participator", it can pay-off to figure out how to hang at the edges of assimilation. But its a slippery-slope...to much engagement and positive re-inforcement and you're lost amongst them...a paycheck or commission-grabbing busybody (happens all the time to people who were once artists...but lost it). Don't worry, you wont be allowed to separate as much as you like...so learn to upend a good shot of it (detachment) whenever you can.

detachment is still understood only as a reaction to your environment...

[grommet]

its inescapable. are you a little caught up on causality?
It IS escapable.
Though I am not caught up on causality, I am able to understand outcomes because I understand potential paths that could provide that outcome. Like when someone freaks out in the middle of the night, asking what was that noise-- I can break it down and identify it. It is just another tool in the toolbox. Is that a problem for you?

detachment is still understood only as a reaction to your environment...
only if you are detached from your detachment. if you are within your "detachment", it has no label and therefore does not exist at all.

[cooljamesx1]

Is that a problem for you?



ya it can end up making you jump to conclusions

[suburbanartists]

hey the winner of american idol may not be a good "musician" or "artist", but they're sure as hell good at being a cog in getting people to watch tv.

I think I smell a lot of jealousy here...

hes probably watching a big tv right now. bastard.

this forum is becoming more and more unenlightening to me


Yup do admit it sure does sound that way. And i bet he does have a giant tv, i've just got a regular one, not even a flat screen. But i've worked with and been around many people way way more famous and loaded than hirst, and i've seen first hand that it's really not that cool to be famous. Many times it actually sucks. So no not jealous. Just not into his work and have no respect for the phony 100 million sales (remember the skull saga). Do like the brazenness of some of his pieces, but that's about it for me.

Coldj - Predictable comments, you're fostering your own dissatisfaction.

[grommet]

ya it can end up making you jump to conclusions

That doesn't seem to be an issue for me, I am always aware of multiple possibilities so withold conclusion pending further evidence, unless I am pretty dang sure it was the cat playing with a toy. If I am only certain it was the cat, I investigate, because it could be a twistie, a toy or a mouse.
Experience and logic do provide some guidance.

[cheesepaws]

I'm disappointed. It is usually around this point that you all usually start in on the food analogies.

Oh...perhaps it is not disappointment at all - just dinner time.

[grommet]

Food doesn't make my husband wake up flailing in the middle of the night. (thought it was a child, didn't you?)

[Ries]

After this last auction, Hirst is estimated to be a billionaire. (in dollars)
That means there are only somewhere like 1000 other people in the world who could possibly be "way more loaded" than he is.
Most of whom live in India, Russia, and China.

[chris 71]

i dont know if its jealousy with me or not. i think i have not even seen more than a few of hirst works. the ones i did see i thought were alright. the diamond skull is cool and the falayed guy is neat. i think i did see a picture of the operating apartuses and they were really very cool in a creepy kinda way. but so what!!! it seems like there coming of as some kind of art hero legends or being portrayed like that. maybe i am totally off by thinking this but thats what i dont like is that jealousy

[cooljamesx1]

Coldj - Predictable comments, you're fostering your own dissatisfaction.

to quote the Simpsons, the blues isn't about feeling better, its about making other people feel worse.:D

I'm not sure why it bothers you so much that his sales are "phony"... even if he just did it for the publicity, why are you so upset about it? can't you take some comfort in hanging out with all your even more famous and rich friends?

[jOe~]

detachment is still understood only as a reaction to your environment...What if you create your own environment? Actually detachment from your reaction changes your environment. Gotta picture the environment like Einstein viewed spacetime.

[grommet]

What if you create your own environment? Actually detachment from your reaction changes your environment. Gotta picture the environment like Einstein viewed spacetime.


Well, see, it's sort of what I was talking about here... Other people may view you as detached, whereas you may just think you're 'doing your own thing'.

only if you are detached from your detachment. If you are within your "detachment", it has no label and therefore does not exist at all.

[evaldart]

Ahh, the failings of language...wish we could detach ourselves from IT... we'd likely develop one of the lesser known senses, the sixth or seventh one, that would allow for proper thought and for the intended anti-exchange.

[cheesepaws]

Ahh, the failings of language...wish we could detach ourselves from IT... we'd likely develop one of the lesser known senses, the sixth or seventh one, that would allow for proper thought and for the intended anti-exchange.

No failing, simply nuance. Your suggested future of seamless communication does not sound like something worth striving toward from my vantage. Messy things often give us the greatest of pleasures: sloppy joes, sweaty sex, mud baths. Poorly chosen words and miscommunication can take you to places you would never dare trespass otherwise.

Of course you know the writers in the world (perhaps especially the poets) would disagree with all your "short comings of language" rants. Isn't the poet entitled to the same higher state of transformation as you when you are banging on some steel and in the zone?

Clean language for the sake of passing information need not alway be the goal of communication. Detach from language (and all of its pitfalls) and you detach from humanity.

[evaldart]

No...the poets are NOT entitled to the same higher state. They are only half an artist...using half of their presence and half of their potential. They dont actually "touch" anything and their only tool is a little alphabet. Cheese, you dont even know how fortunate you are to be a sculptor. The world is at your fingertips...no pressure, but for your sake do it right, but it will take fortitude to beat-back the distractions.

Hirst has a billion distractions I hear...a happy dude I suppose, sharper than the regulars, but thats not saying much.

[grommet]

I'd be willing to bet there's a seat-of-the-pants poet out there who moves as he creates as he scrawls letters that become words on an old slate wall, all the while howling and stamping on a sheet of metal resting on a bed of clay while the whole place vibrates with(fill in the blank) as the timer ticks down to release the catch, plunging the whole mess down a demolition chute, to land on a carefully balanced pair of rollerskates, whick would roll, if only they weren't square...

Do you ever compose words as you mangle metal Mr. Johnson?

[StevenW]

I would agree that art in general is superior to language on a purely conceptual basis and that in the realm of pure thought, written words are a bit like gas guzzlers. Often times they take entire volumes to get across a few simple notions and ideas, which are then typically misunderstood anyway. They still list Romeo and Juliet a tradgedy for instance, even though it was intended by Shakespeare to be a comedy. Sculpture can encapsulate all of that and more and does not need to be understood at all. It rises above in relation to the intrinsic value of the written word except when it comes to text books and manuals and let's face it, by and large those were all written for dummies.

[cheesepaws]

Sorry, I don’t buy into hierarchies of expression*. Language is supremely conceptual - even on the most basic of levels as symbols representing sounds conveying imagery or abstract notion of being. The “limitations” of language (26 letter characters in English for example) is akin to the same “limitations” of chess - finite moves but infinite challenge.

Sculpture is intrinsically linked to language. Sure, one can argue that a work of sculpture can convey an idea that is impossible to express in language – but simply speaking the words stone can take the mind beyond any single sculpture and encompass all of creativity – bringing forth images of mountains and mines, boulders, pebbles, and every grain of sand on the planet. Potent stuff.

Reject language and you might as well hang up your MIG spool gun and call it a day.


*Except painting and its bastard child – photography. Third rate expressions fer sure. :p

[cheesepaws]

No...the poets are NOT entitled to the same higher state. They are only half an artist...using half of their presence and half of their potential. They dont actually "touch" anything and their only tool is a little alphabet. Cheese, you dont even know how fortunate you are to be a sculptor. The world is at your fingertips...no pressure, but for your sake do it right, but it will take fortitude to beat-back the distractions.

I have always sculpted hand-in-hand with language. I don't do pure abstraction, so there always tends to be a bit of narrative in my work. Narrative relies on a sense of language to be conveyed through the work.

To me, claiming to make language-free sculpture is a bit like waving around a gun with no bullets in it.

[StevenW]

Sorry, I don’t buy into hierarchies of expression*. Language is supremely conceptual - even on the most basic of levels as symbols representing sounds conveying imagery or abstract notion of being. The “limitations” of language (26 letter characters in English for example) is akin to the same “limitations” of chess - finite moves but infinite challenge.

Sculpture is intrinsically linked to language. Sure, one can argue that a work of sculpture can convey an idea that is impossible to express in language – but simply speaking the words stone can take the mind beyond any single sculpture and encompass all of creativity – bringing forth images of mountains and mines, boulders, pebbles, and every grain of sand on the planet. Potent stuff.

Reject language and you might as well hang up your MIG spool gun and call it a day.


*Except painting and its bastard child – photography. Third rate expressions fer sure. :p

Ahh yes,.. but Cheese,.. I am afraid you have it backwards. Being a chess expert myself I can vouge for it.. In chess there are more moves and combinations of moves than there are atoms in the universe, but they are all constrained by rules and the "challenge" is always the same, merely to win. It is similarly so with language.. When God created the great chain of being he started with himself, then the angels, then man and finally the animals. Why then can or should there be no great chain of expression? "Painting and its bastard child photography" (lol) are the evidence you yourself provide and sculpture is in lights comparitively and concedes no bounderies, rules or definitive goals.. Sharks in a potion for instance, the great masters could never have forseen them. No great conceptual shift like this will ever happen in a puny book.

[grommet]

hey cheese? Could you hold it down, your narrative is tripping my tactile kinetics.:rolleyes::p:)

Being a chess expert myself I can vouge for it..
Steven, great typo-- sooo close I had to push it over (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjOLh2s-o3M).
Your comments are based on assumptions, nothing solid. If I pull the bottom one out the whole thing totters and crumbles into wisps of fanciful language and crafted beliefs.

[evaldart]

"To me, claiming to make language-free sculpture is a bit like waving around a gun with no bullets in it.[/QUOTE] Cheese


A sculptor doesn't need the bullets...or the gun, for that matter. He keeps his reality close...can reach it with hands. And if its a gorilla, that particular reality, then his work is cut-out for him. So it goes.

Aiming doesn't leave room for surprises. And just shootin' bullets up into the air...well, thats what Hirst is doing; a lotta damn noise.

[cheesepaws]

A sculptor doesn't need the bullets...or the gun, for that matter. He keeps his reality close...can reach it with hands. And if its a gorilla, that particular reality, then his work is cut-out for him. So it goes.

Aiming doesn't leave room for surprises. And just shootin' bullets up into the air...well, thats what Hirst is doing; a lotta damn noise.

Wait..wait, are we trying to shoot the gorilla or just scare him away with some loud noises? I suppose we could just trap him in one of Grommet's kinetic tactile whirligig thingies or perhaps Steven could distract him with a game of chess. I think we must ask ourselves if, in fact, the gorilla is one of suburbanartist's rich and powerful friends - in which case, I hope he quits monkeying around and just buys some of my damn art already.

Ah, give me narrative and give me depth.

[grommet]

Evaldart,
Are you working on pieces in the immediate vicinity of making posts here?

[cooljamesx1]

Sorry, I don’t buy into hierarchies of expression

ya. me neither

[evaldart]

ya. me neither


If it makes you feel like a big shot to stand next to a poet, then go-ahead...sounds like bullying to me. If you must compare and compete, at least choose players your own "size".

[jOe~]

If it makes you feel like a big shot to stand next to a poet, I know quite a few good poets. They are the big shots. Hearing them read is humbling.

[cheesepaws]

Eval – I respect a lot of what you so poetically (..and therefore ironically) write on this forum – but I don’t get this thing you have against language, poets and the ilk.

If it makes you feel like a big shot to stand next to a poet, then go-ahead...sounds like bullying to me. If you must compare and compete, at least choose players your own "size".


Ok...if that is the case, is there also a hierarchy among sculptors? What materials have the most clout? Do some movements "outsize" others (For example, are Modernist "bigger" than Minimalists?) Are men and women divided in this ranking system? How does age factor in? Experience? Training? Sales? Quality? Quantity?

If the poets don't make the cut, what other forms of expression run with the sculptor big boys? Rock-n-rollers? Calligraphers? Ballroom Dancers? What are the factors that qualify who is in and who doesn't make the cut? You already mentioned touching with the hands as being important a few posts back. Just about all forms of expression are tactile - so it must be more than that. Give us some details.

Since I think it is an excellent topic for discussion - I, for one, will be disappointed if you fall back on the inadequacies of language to properly explain your stance or put it down to some vague gut feeling or faith in an imagined "higher humanity". Spell it out for us (it might be fun to see where we each rank!)

I am off to a fancy dinner (to celebrate a recent sale) - but I can't wait to see your response.

[grommet]

Evaldart could be a bit subjective due to a run-in with a rogue college-ruled spiral notebook filled with prose. It tailed him for days, showing up everywhere he went, relentless. Suddenly, he screamed, backing away until he was up against the donuts with rainbow sprinkles showcase. Whimpering, he asked the sneering curled pages what they wanted from him. As a glint of sun ricocheted off the case of bearclaws, highlighting his tear-streaked face and the menacing spiral binding, the image of the notebook dissolved. His freshman Lit professor smiled uneasily and said "you left your bus pass in my classroom." And ever since then, on rainy nights during the school year, you can still hear the ghosts screaming ...

Or maybe it's just fun to argue about, could be either one...;)

[jOe~]

You guys are just too serious about language. Here have some fun. Read it out loud fast: When the Tweedle Beetles Battle In the Peanut Butter Bottle using Peanut Butter Paddles on the Poodle eating Noodles who Battles Tweedle Beetles in the Peanut Butter Bottle as it Bobbles in a Bowl on a Batch of Boiling Butter in the Peanut Butter Batter, where Tweedle Beetles Boggle and Blow Bubbles in the Butter where the Battle Bottle Bobbles, and it Boggles Beetles Tweedle that a Peanut Butter Paddle can battle with a Poodle when the Poodle's Eating Noodles in a Bobbing Battle Bottle in a batch of Boiling Butter on the Peanut Butter Batter during Peanut Butter Battles, THIS is what they call a Tweedle Beetle Peanut Butter Bobble Bottle Batter Boiling Bubble Butter Bowl Poodle Noodle Peanut Butter Paddle Battle

[grommet]

Would you engrave that on a grain of rice for me, please?

[evaldart]

Well Cheese, you seem to be mixing together "forms of expression" and Art. I I dont think they have much at all to do with each other. We all here on this forum are expressing ourselves constantly, and often quite well, but it aint any kind of Art. Our Art happens somewhere else, usually a big dirty place with tools, cords, hoses and matter... and arms - not just fingers.

Everyone of us has his/her (hopefully occasionally changing) view of which Art should be accepted and which other stuff should be dismissed. I choose, these days, in the visual Arts, to seek-out works of Art that require the intensity of an entire individual (not just the braniac...the dummy too) and works that dis-require the usual contaminations and dis-inspirings that ever arrive by the regular impacting suffered under the raining-down of an overblown and over-valued co-existence with community.

This is not to say I'm anti-social, I play by the rules of my culture, I contribute in a friendly manner, I participate actively enough in my chosen area of expertise to get paid as often as I need to, I think often of other things - avocations, hobbies and pass-times - and have already handed the center of the universe over to my children....But...But I have become privy to methods of entering creative spells that diminish EVERYTHING else to nonsense...so by contrast, I find a place during the artful activity that makes "hyper-sense" and this fleeting omniscience is a sensation...one not attached at all to language and barely perceivable by the gaping wonder windows. I have found that sculptors access the hyper-sense much more readily than other creative types. We all experience it differently but if you really pay attention you will find-it in the DURING not in the AFTER.
We should all wear thousand-pound charm bracelets as intimate reminders of our super-power.

Tactile is not enough.

Philosophers and physicists do not get any hyper-sense. Just migranes.:)

So I laugh at the poets and posers and posturing pretenders...make light of their smithing of adjectives because I know that it is necessary to be FULLY engaged in an abjectly unrequired and unpredicted activity (no hierarchy) to authenticate an instance. Mostly life is full of inauthentic ones...but it is bred into us to find something good in those too; but it aint Art.

[StevenW]

I am off to a fancy dinner (to celebrate a recent sale) - but I can't wait to see your response.


What's this? "Fancy"? Could that be a "hierarchy" of dinner? :D

Why not go eat pig-food at Arby's, it's all the same right? :rolleyes:

[evaldart]

I used to love to celebrate unusual sales with unusual meals in unusual resaurants...until the kids started getting cavities...one little whole in the head costs four times more than my favorite 64 oz butter-basted porterhouse. Damn.

But Cheese is a company man...got a good dental plan...he can get away with it.:D

[cheesepaws]

So I laugh at the poets and posers and posturing pretenders...make light of their smithing of adjectives because I know that it is necessary to be FULLY engaged in an abjectly unrequired and unpredicted activity (no hierarchy) to authenticate an instance. Mostly life is full of inauthentic ones...but it is bred into us to find something good in those too; but it aint Art.

Thanks for the explanation. What throws me is how certain you are: certain you can attain this state of hyper-sense, certain that poets don't "fully" engage in a similar way, and certain that being ultimately engaged is ultimately the art we all seek. Part of me envies you for your understanding of how absolutely clear the structure of art (and expression) can be.

I have found that the older I get the more and more comfortable I am with the idea of being less and less sure about things. More questions...more doubt - I like it, but realize it isn't for everyone.

Now...as far as being a "company man" - all is fair in love and art. As long a I know when to walk away I am cool cashing in on the perks!
**flashes his pearly whites**

[cheesepaws]

What's this? "Fancy"? Could that be a "hierarchy" of dinner? :D

Why not go eat pig-food at Arby's, it's all the same right? :rolleyes:

Toupee mon frair!

(As it stands my meal was a disappointment. Arby's probably would have been a better call.)

[evaldart]

Thanks for the explanation. What throws me is how certain you are: certain you can attain this state of hyper-sense, certain that poets don't "fully" engage in a similar way, and certain that being ultimately engaged is ultimately the art we all seek. Part of me envies you for your understanding of how absolutely clear the structure of art (and expression) can be.

I have found that the older I get the more and more comfortable I am with the idea of being less and less sure about things. More questions...more doubt - I like it, but realize it isn't for everyone.

Now...as far as being a "company man" - all is fair in love and art. As long a I know when to walk away I am cool cashing in on the perks!
**flashes his pearly whites**

Cheese, it sounds like in your maturity you are becoming just as certain as I that the questions ARE the answers (doubt is no good, though...exhibits a lack of confidence). But being "certain" is also tied to instances. Certainties change, re-create themselves, fuel your questions...your wonder. Put it all together with a thresholded bodily ruckus and you've got "pure-tinence", the defeater and thwarter of all previously understood notions. What a charge!

[Duck]

My only advice to Evaldart is put on some Barry White and slow it down....

[grommet]

....But...But I have become privy to methods of entering creative spells that diminish EVERYTHING else to nonsense...so by contrast, I find a place during the artful activity that makes "hyper-sense" and this fleeting omniscience is a sensation...one not attached at all to language and barely perceivable by the gaping wonder windows. I have found that sculptors access the hyper-sense much more readily than other creative types. We all experience it differently but if you really pay attention you will find-it in the DURING not in the AFTER.
We should all wear thousand-pound charm bracelets as intimate reminders of our super-power.

So I'm trying to decide if I should equate this with born-again religious zealotry or the smug assurance of a teen who has discovered orgasm on their own, sure that he/she is the only one to make this self discovery in quite this way.
There have been references to Church of Evaldart, so we'll go with that for now. There will be battles with poet/sinners. Your faith will be tested.;)

[evaldart]

I have seen my ire taunted by equatings of my blather with religion...I recognize it as a poke, though, because many here know my feelings about religion.
Zealot, on the other hand, is a name the less-intense accuse the more-intense of being...no matter the subject. Personal priorities will decide where an individual asserts his zealotry. In ANY case its far better than a placid and waifish Apathy.

As far as Barry White goes...Cake pulled off a great cover of "Never gonna give you up". I can roll with that.

[jOe~]

Cake pulled off a great cover of "Never gonna give you up". I can roll with that.Love Cake, "Friend is a four letter Word", Stickshifts and Safetybelts", Race Car Ya-Yas", etc..

I find a place during the artful activity that makes "hyper-sense" and this fleeting omniscience is a sensation...one not attached at all to language and barely perceivable by the gaping wonder windows.I try to find how its attached to everything--expands my consciousness.

I have found that the older I get the more and more comfortable I am with the idea of being less and less sure about things. More questions...more doubt - I like it, "One thing is valuable in art—that which cannot be explained." (Braque) or "I know that down to the last simple detail experience is totally mysterious"(oldenburg ), "The job of the artist is always to deepen the mystery." (Francis Bacon), "All the best works of any artist must be bathed, so to speak, in mystery." (Auguste Rodin), "The aim of art is to represent not the outward appearance of things, but their inward significance, and this, and not the external manner and detail, is true reality." (Aristotle)

[suburbanartists]

I think we must ask ourselves if, in fact, the gorilla is one of suburbanartist's rich and powerful friends - in which case, I hope he quits monkeying around and just buys some of my damn art already..

Sorry - No Rich and powerful FRIENDS here. Just worked with and for some household names in the movies, quite a while ago.

Did anyone see a segment on him Sunday morning on one of those news shows?

[suburbanartists]

I posted these photos back in Feb..... #3 post.
This was at the Lever House Lobby in nyc.

http://www.sculpture.net/community/showthread.php?t=7141&highlight=lever+house

Anyone know anything about this? Seems hirst inspired, ripped off at the least. Could find no info on it.

[grommet]

I find a place during the artful activity that makes "hyper-sense" and this fleeting omniscience is a sensation...one not attached at all to language and barely perceivable by the gaping wonder windows.

I try to find how its attached to everything--expands my consciousness.

well that's truly something to shoot for... can normal people do it, or do you have to live on a coast???:rolleyes::D

[evaldart]

well that's truly something to shoot for... can normal people do it, or do you have to live on a coast???:rolleyes::D

Aint no "normals" round here - unless their just spectating. Sign says, "Do not feed the animals". But I get a bone now and then anyhow. Pringles just introduced a new flavor...CHEESEBURGER. Made my day. Sometimes its okay to be half cave-man.

[grommet]

So if no one there is "normal", then it would become the aberration. So you actually are normal in your environment... so what do you do then? So sadly lacking in uniqueness in your own environment... :rolleyes:
Vinegar and salt chips for me please.

[cheesepaws]

Finally!...food metaphors.

[grommet]

no metaphors, just chips. So would yours be the sour cream-cheddar???

[evaldart]

Yeah, cheese, no metaphors...this is breaking news. They got Extreme Dill in those Pringles too, now. But nothing accompanies a few midday tuna sandwiches like jalapeno-nacho.
Pringles are very much like some Art out there: Conceptually driven, lacking in substance, never touched by human hands during production, "artificial" as opposed to authentic, one chip looks and feels exactly like every other one, widely embraced by "snackers" everywhere by the celebrated and anticipated introductions of new "flavors"...but we should be grateful for the price; if they were 10,000 dollars a can instead of two, only the Saatchis and a few busier busybodies would be able to eat them.

Theres your metaphor Cheese.

[StevenW]

That does it, I'm convinced.. Matt's just pulled the pringle from the stone.

Kneel sir Eval. "In the name of saint tuna, saint peanut butter and saint Jelly , I dub thee King. :)

[cooljamesx1]

Pringles are very much like some Art out there: Conceptually driven, lacking in substance, never touched by human hands during production, "artificial" as opposed to authentic, one chip looks and feels exactly like every other one,

are boulder chips less conceptual?

[cooljamesx1]

you used the word like. doesn't that make it a simile anyways? your metaphors are LIKE pringles. don't actually contain potatoes.

[Blake]

It appears that the auction was a scam
Blake

From The Sunday Times
September 21, 2008
Hirst dealers bolster prices at record sale
DAMIEN HIRST’S own dealers propped up prices at his record-breaking art auction at Sotheby’s with estimated bids and purchases of £40m.

Three of his closest business associates, who have an interest in maintaining the high value of his work, made bids or purchases accounting for more than half of the £70.5m spent on the crucial opening day of the sale.

Hirst was selling 223 new pieces, which had been made for him at his six studios in the past two years
The sale smashed the previous record for takings from a single artist sale at Sotheby’s by a factor of 10 and took place as financial markets went into freefall on Monday, the day Lehman Brothers declared its bankruptcy.

Hirst had claimed that the auction was a way to break free from his dealers, saying: “I was indoctrinated by the gallery system — that you don’t do auctions. If you don’t like the rules, change the rules.”

Rumours are circulating in the art world that, in fact, it was only thanks to the dealers that he was able to defy gravity.

One leading collector, who asked not to be named, said: “Nothing can convince me that on the very day banks were collapsing around us, collectors were buying these works at Sotheby’s. I don’t care how rich you are or where you’re from. When it looks like the world is going under, nobody buys.”

Another high-profile collector, who also asked not to be named, said: “The Damien Hirst industry is a skilfully managed market. It would be in a lot of people’s interest to make sure this sale worked.”

Modern art auctions are highly secretive. The auction houses protect the names of buyers and many bids are made through proxies or by telephone.

The Sunday Times has acquired a list compiled by three saleroom correspondents who attended the auction. They took a note of the winning bidder and the second highest, known as the “under-bidder”.

The list shows that a substantial role was played by Jay Jopling, Hirst’s long-standing friend and dealer. Jopling, the son of a former Conservative minister who established the White Cube as one of London’s best known galleries, bought £7.2m of artworks in the sale.

Jopling arguably made more significant interventions with some of the lots that he did not buy. According to the watching journalists, he was one of the highest bidders for The Kingdom, a tiger shark in a steel tank, which was sold for £9.6m. His White Cube gallery was identified as the underbidder on lots sold for an estimated total of more than £20m.

Most of Jopling’s activity was in the Monday session, which exceeded all price expectations. Two other Hirst dealers, Larry Gagosian and Harry Blain, were active that evening.

Gagosian, Hirst’s dealer in America, bought one lot for £880,000. He was second highest bidder for a calf in a golden case, which sold for £10.3m.

Blain, a co-founder of the Haunch of Venison gallery who deals in Hirst’s works, bought two pieces and was underbidder on two others. Among his purchases was a glass cabinet containing medicines, which cost £1.3m.

This weekend White Cube and Gagosian declined to discuss whether they were acting on behalf of clients or buying on their own behalf to protect the market in Hirst works.

Blain said in a statement: “Bids were placed for private clients on their accounts who wanted to acquire the works for their respective collections.” Fellow dealers point out that White Cube, Gagosian and Blain have many clients interested in buying Hirst’s work so it was not entirely surprising that they would be heavily involved in an auction of new pieces.

Philip Hoffman, chief executive of the Fine Art Fund, sat at the auction between Jopling and a billionaire retailer. He said there was some “protectionism” and he saw Jopling bid for a “lousy piece”, which was likely to do badly.

Richard Feigen, a New York gallery owner who is a critic of Hirst’s work, believes the art market is open to manipulation. “The dealers have a huge interest in sustaining prices and they have substantial inventories of their own,” he said.

[evaldart]

Thank you Blake.

Big damn surprise...culture...sheeeesh!

[StevenW]

It is kind of funny the lengths people will go to in order to prop up a myth.
In the back of my mind I had a strange vision of the world crumbling around us while these people sat around calmly spending their millions and sipping tea. It reminded me of the fall of Rome and of the Soviet empire, whose magnates had already looted their natural resources and treasures, sold them out to foreigners and now live in 100 million dollar homes in Venice and the like.. Put them all to the question and ready the pikes on London bridge. :)

[suburbanartists]

Cheese - But this thread was about the auction. He is from the a PT Barnum school and finding many suckers..
Seemed obvious even before the news broke.

Now he's no more than a bad pyrimid scheme operator. His house of cards... doomed. When you get busted F'in the people, The people will F you back.

He gives us all a bad name with his bs scam.

[suburbanartists]

Hirst is a Jack As.

Yeah remember the 50 mill. or what ever he said the skull went for. It was all bull. It was Hirst's money (or was it called a loan) just to jack up the headline price. I wouldn't be surprised if he or his boys bought most everything there. Sotheby's - they've certainly proved themselves readily available for price fixing.

Nuf said.

[cooljamesx1]

jez look at you people money money money money marketing, PR, who gives two shits about all that stuff? who cares who bought what and for how much? like its some big conspiracy...

[fused]

Seemed obvious even before the news broke.

Now he's no more than a bad pyrimid scheme operator. His house of cards... doomed. When you get busted F'in the people, The people will F you back.
The same auction scheme was executed by several collectors with Julian Schnabel's work back in the late 80's to give his "value" an artificial boost.

Bumped into a few Sotheby images (http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/gallery/2008/jul/29/damien.hirst?picture=336031251) from this sale, for anyone who hasn't seen 'em.

[CroftonGraphics]

I have nothing against what Damien Hirst is doing.

His name will be in art history books.

All these 'scams' he is doing is just a way of marketting his art.
What is worse this sort of carry on or the blatant fraud going on with world bankers at the moment?

I would rather see an artist rake in money that bankers who get bonuses for turning up to work and saying the right words.

Although perhaps unintended, Hirst's skull was shown at a time when bling was at is height. Bankers/traders were doing dodgy dealings. Everyone thought they were immortal along with their credit card limit. To me the skull is laughing back at us, although priceless it has no meaning as in the end we die.

Before anyone starts saying artists should not commentate on society/culture, Guernica anyone? Along with countless other works in history.

I do admit that I dont think Hirst wants to make a statement its up to the viewer.

Come on any day, who would you rather see, Hirst or self obsesed Emin?
Neither?