Top stone sculpture schools worldwide???

[1to0]

I dont know if this will create a major debate on the forum or not, but here goes...

Im doing research for a colleague who has given me the task of seeking out the top sculpture (stone) schools on an international level. I have very little knowledge in the field, but have good internet searching abilities (how I landed up here).

What I know is that there is a talented young artist who's parents are looking to send him for the best education possible. What I need is to gather a list of these best schools/facilities/foundaries/masters and pass that list off for further research by them.

Can any of you help? Anything would be appreciated, links, websites, URL's, etc.

One question may be...

"Knowing what you know now, where would you go to get an education if the sky was the limit?"

All the best...
jon

[sculptorsam]

Knowing what I know (which isn't much), I'd skip school all-together and find one great artist to apprentice with. Have the kid start sweeping the floors and work his way up for 4-5 years.

Sam

[jwebb]

Sam's being a bit facetious, I think. But all in all I would not argue much with his suggestion. That's about how Michelangelo started. But as one of the few on this site (apparently) who both carves stone and went to Art School, and fast becoming one of the biggest wind-bags on the site, I'll take a crack at your question. (First, though, I'm having trouble conceiving of this young student who's waiting obediently for his/her parents to have an agent research where he/she should go to school. What's this kid do all day, lie around the pool?) Tell the child to escape; quick! Take off on a motorcycle; walk away. Experience life. I'll cut to the chase and say I don't know of any University that's especially dedicated to stone carving. The current head of the Sculpture Dept in the one I went to (Portland State University), a gentleman named Michiro Kosuge, is indeed a stone carver himself, making elegant huge abstractions in basalt and granite. But I wouldn't say they emphasize stone over bronze, clay, welded steel, or any other material - or any other technique. What seems to be happening now is that students are delving into new and unexplored media faster than the faculties. The value of studying Art at a University or Art School, if there is any value, is in my opinion the exposure to the wide scope of Art History and the insights and opinions of experienced mentors, as well as fellow students. At least in my experience it's not that somebody teaches you the correct mechanics of working the material. There are people who can do that, quicker and better than Art Professors. They'd be competent professional stone masons, like Mr. GDog on this site. Better yet, I say the student should grab some stone and start wailing away on it, with whatever tools are at hand, and let the stone teach him/her the techniques that appeal to him/her. If I were young and rich and free, and wanted to make "figurative" stone sculpture, I'd go to Pietrosante, Italy, for one or more of those stone carving seminars. They carve the same beautiful marble, using the same techniques and tools, in the same places and in the same light the masters of the Renaissance experienced. I'd hang around Italy for about 2 years, looking at great Art and eating great food. If I were not into representational figure work, then, I'd go up to Canada and study the work of Inuit stone carvers in the St. Lawrence area. Universities mostly teach students how to please Professors; how to regurgitate information in essays on demand; how to get good grades; how to be miniature Art Critics. Very few people seem to go out of there and make Art for a living. I often wonder where they all go. But the real, innovative, exciting Art never seems to be found at the center of any of those institutions; it's always out on the fringes where crazy people are doing it just because they can't help themselves. I doubt this is any help to you in your mission, but I hope it's of interest to somebody.

[sculptorsam]

Yeah, I was only half kidding. I am a metalworker myself and my above plan is basically how I learned how to work. My dad is a metalworker and I grew up sweeping the shop and learning how to work by watching and then by doing jobs of increasing difficulty over the years.

I did attend college but dropped out after 3 semesters. I think I benefited by going though, mainly by bursting the bubble that there is anything magical going on in most colleges. Having a degree and connections does help with the careerism though.

But if the kid is truly interested in the quality of his work, take jwebb's advice or my own. Find a good library and internet connection as well and he's all set. Most of class time in college is simply spent summarizing the assigned reading for those too lazy to actually do their homework anyway. A library card is much cheaper and teaches initiative.

But since you probably wanted names and not our takes on educational philosophy, I did just get back from Bowling Green State University in Ohio and was impressed with their facilities. They do a fair amount of stone carving there and the head of the sculpture department, Shawn Morin, does some very fine stonework to my eyes.

Sam

[Gdog]

I agree 100% with Sam.And if the sky is the limit, then the kid should do what ever his father is doing, if you can get good at one thing,in this life anyway,it would be making money! then you can dabble so to speak in what ever it is that you wish,heck you could even be whimsical!!

As one who has no degrees, I can carve stone with the best, however it is the financial means [tools, resources,n such that causes the most grief for me.] Unfortunately I have the same bad habits most people have such as eating,staying warm,keeping a roof over my head,blah blah,which requires a great deal of time! blah!

There's an old saying which goes like this,"the A students teach the B students how to work for the C students".And it's not education but determination!

I like Ben Franklin would love to make my advocation my vocation,however I don't believe I would like financial pressures dictating my work. I think if the kid doesn't have the pressure of having to jump right out into the highway of life, And he has the interest in working with stone, and I would underline interest, if I knew how :o [there are a lot of uninterested very talented people} If it's not what you want to do, the novelty of carving stone,welding steel, or what have you,wears out quite quickly. I have a 16 yr old son who I would love to teach Everything I know about stone and working it, but the interest is not there!

To get back to Sam's point If you REALLY WANT to learn how to work with anything you need to associate with the people who have been around. An accomplished individual, even if it means sweeping floors etc.

I would love to teach stone sculpting,carving or what ever you want to call it,I would love to have my son associate with a wealthy person who might rub off on him and sincerely show him the subtleties of wealth and the gazillion doors of opportunity that come with it.

jwebb and sam have probably provided bits and pieces of the best advice anyone could give [if $ is not a factor get some tools, a few chunks of material,or get around someone and dabble!

I'm venting, sorry! I'll be here, ask what you will about stone. Sometime I'll share the story of how the art directer of a local university infiltrated my camp disguised as a nun. Mr. Spill his guts got a bad taste in his mouth with a few of the educated, however I am confident and still willing to show what I know assuming some sort of mutual exchange,even if it we're at the very least sweeping and cleaning up some of the mess we made!

jwebb your a good poster!,and sam I wish I could say as much as you with as few words! " I'm not a bigshot but just a lil shot that just keeps shoot'in
thank you kindly! Mr.Gdog-NICE!! :D

[ALH]

for what its worth...

I have noticed, over the years, a number of workshops advertised (on the net and in sculpture magazines) for the lernin of stone curvin. This might be a good place to start for two reasons.

First it would give a good overview and a place to start in the furtherance of this particular interest.

Second it would be a, relatively, cheap way of determining it this was a lasting interest (in terms ofdollars and commitment).

I would have looked into these workshops, in Washington and Italy etc., more seriously but the budget simply hasn't been there for me.

Nothing stopping a person from doing University after such an adventure, in fact the subject matter experts at the workshops would likely point someone in a very wise direction.

[anne (bxl)]

I think ALH points out a very important aspect. There are so many options for a future art carrier! Education has to be a time to practice as many technics and styles as you could and to open your mind to options you couln't even imagine before.

I started sculpture because I emphazised stone. Luckily I could join a lot of unexpensive workshops herearound (stone, iron, wood, welding, landart, arthistory....) and changed my tack.

School education is important for 2 reasons : not any -even excellent- practicers is capable to teach. and also universities/artschools are where you get your first professionnal contacts.

[Gdog]

not any -even excellent- practicers is capable to teach..[/QUOTE]

What?

[JAZ]

Also, the facilities at an art college give you a chance to play with different media. I never, ever would have thought of working in steel if the school's welding area didn't reach out and suck me in. At the Museum School you can move freely between departments so that if you had a great idea for an installation involving ceramic parts supported by steel frameworks decorated with plaster casts of something surrounding some video component, well, you'd just do it and if you had no idea of how to do the clay part because you hadn't taken ceramics yet, well someone in that department would guide you. They had a steel room full of steel to choose from and etc. There was a whole room for plaster with a bath tub for rinsing things and there was a good sized printing area, and so on. Any mature artist was in heaven. It made you feel that anything your could think of was possible. That alone is worth the price of admission if you ask me. I am a self motivated learner and know how to use a library, but I can recognize a good deal when I see one, and education is one. I'd go get my masters in a second if I could afford it.

[anne (bxl)]

not any -even excellent- practicers is capable to teach..

What?[/QUOTE]
One could be an excellent practitioner or creative person having no pedagogy, no educational methods.

[fritchie]

What?
One could be an excellent practitioner or creative person having no pedagogy, no educational methods.

I have to agree with Anne here, based on my 30+ years of teaching chemistry at university level. After perhaps the first ten or so years, I began to tell students at the beginning of each semester that learning was their job, and my job was to facilitate the process by focusing on specific topics in order and by discussing the current subject matter. Students aren’t receptacles for prepackaged information; each one must digest the material on his or her own, and store it away in a form useful to him or her.

Following this line of thought, Anne is completely correct in saying that even an excellent practioner may not be a good teacher, simply because he or she may not be able to select the focus the student needs at a given time.

I have had many conversations with (university) art teachers over the years, and generally they have said that they consider it their job to help the student solve technical problems (technique, facilities, material, and so on), but not to provide conceptual guidance. That part is up to the student. Also, focus and determination.

[Gdog]

I couldn't sleep well the other night after reading that not any {meaning not one]has the capacity to teach, I believe I had mentioned that I would love to teach stone sculpture,carving what have you? I grind granite day in and day out, and have so for seventeen years. I may not have the so called ART QUALIFICATIONS! I didn't pursue teaching and had never considered teachimg in my youth,however I have considered the possibilities of it in the future, am I to believe that I do not have the capacity to relate and convey worthy information to someone as human as myself because I didn't recieve a degree in art education, I'm starting to get an old familiar feeling. I'm in the middle of the road of my life, I'm well read by my own volition. I've mastered the tools of my trade, I understand the properties of just about any stone after a few moments of working it, I'm extroverted and enjoy teaching, I'm sorry I have done some teach'in in the past. I didn't know I couldn't.[the bumblebee doesn't know he shouldn't be able to fly either,but he does it in ignorance] If the fruit's on the tree people will listen[just ask a young aspiring entrepreneur who he'd rather learn business from,a pipe smokin,yugo driv'in,patch on the elbows business professor, or Donald Trump?] I'm not disputing the fact that there are definately,which I believe there are, excellant universities, with highly capable teachers in stone and other mediums[oh yeah and art]however I do dispute that an excellant practitioner does not have the capacity to teach, universities would be so lucky to have some of the practitioners riddled across this vast world in which we inhabit!

as for teaching methods, like any other freak'in skill they can be developed, I've been teaching myself to melt metal, I love to learn, and most people understand that our best lessons come when we teach!!! some professors I'm sure are boring,some ironically introverted,some mono tone, and many mediocre at best,and thousands of would be great teachers will never come forth [go figure!] Whatever, I'm go'in to bed and I will sleep like a baby, anyway Anne[ I'm partial to the name it was my mothers.] you,ve hit a nerve but it's no biggy, I just had to say what I had to say so I could sleep this even'in! Thanx kindly ! Gdog. Fritchie I have no doubt that you are a very good teacher.

"rebel heretic, thing to flout,he drew a circle that drew me out,but will and I had the wit to win, we drew a circle that drew him in."

[sculptor]

... I'm starting to get an old familiar feeling. ... I've mastered the tools of my trade, I understand the properties of just about any stone after a few moments of working it, I'm extroverted and enjoy teaching, ... universities would be so lucky to have some of the practitioners riddled across this vast world in which we inhabit!

as for teaching methods, like any other freak'in skill they can be developed, ....
...,but will and I had the wit to win, we drew a circle that drew him in."

Many excellent teachers in my life (I call them mentors) were without the academe.
Many "teachers" within the academe were unfit for that post.

It was easier to learn and experiment with different materials(re/JAZ) when the good teachers were found within the infrastructure of the academe.

and what FRitchie said:

It is the students job to learn......

Great and wondrous things happen when a dedicated student and a caring teacher interact. Many good teachers also gain a deeper understanding of their subject when they find a path to give what they know to the void in the students knowledge and understanding, and are open to fresh insights.

One of my figurative sculpting mentors praised my need when I told him that part of what I was attempting really sucked...-he said-.."If you hadn't realized something was wrong, and asked for my help, I wouldn't have been able to help(teach) you."
He then asked my permission to show me, and hacked furiously away at what I had spent days working on and agonizing over, all the while rattling off names of bones and muscles and showing where they interact. Then, he guided and encouraged me throught the repairing and rebuilding. I love that man.

Teaching methods, like the skill in art may be learned-----but without the heart and a little talent.........'t'ain't worth much

Gdog----- you've the desire to teach and the skill---may your light shine for the next generation.

If you haven't tried, perhaps this may encourage you.............

I had volunteered to teach a figurative workshop in a local highschool----they gave me space, materials, tools and students, and then gave me some money(not much, but the giving made me feel appreciated)--When the students began to trust me, and realized that they had looked without seeing, it was as rewarding as I could have imagined.
Also: the local junior college has offered to advertize a course for me, and if 6 or more students enroll, not cancel it.

"we drew a circle that drew him in." ..........bravo

as always------many paths lead to enlightenment

rod

[fritchie]

I couldn't sleep well the other night after reading that not any {meaning not one]has the capacity to teach, ...

Gdog - I certainly didn’t mean to say that you, or anyone in particular, would be unable to teach. I really can’t speak for Anne, but I understood her comment to say that being a good practitioner doesn’t automatically make a person a good teacher.

I have to agree with that thought. A good teacher must be able to relate to his/her students, and to see what their needs are, and to help satisfy those needs, either by example or by pointing them to other sources - books, other experts, or whatever will help.

As for pedagogy and/or advanced degrees - No, I really don’t believe any formal training is needed to be a good teacher. Empathy with the students goes a long way, plus familiarity with the subject matter.

HOWEVER, as the saying goes, degree-granting institutions have worries of their own, which are very real and very valid, such as accreditation and getting the next year’s or the next semester’s budget approved. (Most commonly by the state legislature.) Accrediting groups want to see faculty members with certifiable credentials, and most often those include degrees. Art schools may be very happy to have teachers with the practical certification of years of experience in the field.

I can’t say about any particular school, but I would think that if you are interested in teaching, an art school rather than a general college or university is a better place to start. Or you might consider community colleges. I taught a local history course three semesters running on a nearby university campus after retiring as a chemistry prof, though I have no specific background in history. You really need to keep your options open and look around. Sculptor has just provided a good example of what may be available.

[Gdog]

First and foremost I would like to apologize for spouting off like I did to Anne, Words like can't,never and always[ not any]have that tendency to cancel [all] other options,or it forces [everyone] into particular categories.

It was late and I shouldn't have stepped into the conversation, I'm not qualified to judge acedemics, Universities n such,Anne and Jaz for that matter had some good reasons for attending them and taking advantage of the resources. I happened into the Art world, I don't have those resources, but would love to take advantage of them myself,and I certainly don't have the authority to tell someone that they shouldn,t.[ sour grapes, maybe?]

I would probably be best fitted into an instructional position and maybe not just yet. [ I,ve envisioned a workshop environment I suppose] my wife and I are in the process of aquiring two of the sweetest acres, with a nice three car garage which my wife is so graciously willing to give up, so that I might finally have a nice place to keep my tools etc. [someday I'll attach a picture of the Cave!]

I would be naive to say that I automatically have the qualifications to teach at a top notch stone sculpture school[world wide to boot!]however I'm sure I would have a blast in such an envronment!! [humbly].

I went to bed early tonight and woke up early,because some of the things I said might of came off as too harsh, and I really don't want to leave that impression. Anne was right in many ways,I'm glad I have this chance to apologize before she ripped me a new one!

I myself am attracted to the transcendental aspects of art, and the ability of the individual to use thought and action allied fearlessly with purpose to create. I sometimes have the tendency to forget that I am a tiny minnow in the great interminable ocean.

and as one who has had no direction, guidance,mentor/ university experience etc.I must admit I've probably missed out! I came to this forum to share my enthusiasm for creating and to see if anyone has had any of the same inner experiences I have had while creating.

thank you [everyone]Gdog.

[jwebb]

Hey, Gdog, I'm glad to see somebody besides me getting a bit worked up on this site and speaking from the heart, and I don't think an apology is necessary. There is value in sharing our feelings about this stuff, as well as ideas. I've said my piece on this subject, above, but I also agree with what Mr. Sculptor says so very nicely about teachers. Many can present facts and techniques adequately, but if you find one who really loves the subject - that's something that I think can only be shown, not taught, and it's unforgettable.

[novabelgica]

Recently I was asked if I wasn't interested in teaching blacksmithing (if that's the right word) at an evening school. I responded by asking 'Are you insane? I'd probably end up killing someone!'

I've had apprentices who looked like aspiring Hell's Angels and I chased them out of the shop, crying like babies.

I just don't have the patience to teach. Besides, I don't think of myself yet as someone who has something to teach. Ask me again in 20 years or so.

My point though, is that not everybody can teach. You can be the best sculptor/painter/whatever and you can be extremely knowledgeable about techniques and art history, but if you cannot connect with the students, then you shouldn't teach. A bad teacher can do a lot of damage. As a kid, I dropped out of art school because of one.

[anne (bxl)]

Please, Ggod, do not apologize! This forum is a very interresting one thanks to our differents positions and experiences. And continue to share your enthousiasm with us!

By the way I don't know if I am a good practioner or not but I know I would have been a very bad teacher whatever my academic background is. It's a matter of personnality.

Fritchie, thank you to express my thoughts with such adequate words.

[Araich]

I suspect that I would make an ok teacher... but the question I ask myself is, what will it do to my art?
I am afraid that when it comes to my life, the determining factor has been my freedom to work unhindered.

[sculptorsam]

I think something missing here is a discussion of the differences in learning techniques among individuals. Currently, in education as a whole (my wife is a HS teacher), there is an emphasis on co-operative learning and problem solving. Personally, the only thing I tend to learn from working in a forced group is to resent everyone else in the group. I learn best by watching and listening. I love lectures and presentations that are very
"dry" and speaker-centered. For me, the knowledge is more important than the presentation, and I don't mind wading through difficulty to get at the good stuff. I consider that the price of admission.

I agree whole-heartedly that there is such a thing as a great teacher just as there are horrible ones. But I think it is more important to have the teaching style of the mentor and the learning style of the student mesh than to consider the ideal attributes of either on their own. That is why I suggested thinking outside of a traditional school setting. This is a question that requires taking into consideration the qualities of the student.

I don't think I would excel as a traditional Professor. But for one or two apprentices who didn't need their hand held, working and learning with me would be an eye-opening experience.

Sam

[Deb]

Are you only looking in the USA? Have a look at http://aboutstone.org/stonehoo/Education/ admitedly the list there is self advertised - but its a start. There are places to learn technique and there are places to be taught art history and there are places to get degrees and places to grow up and explore in .... What does the kid want? or is it just the parents wish?