Artists expose their submissions to public scrutiny

[St George]

Artists from around the world have enthusiastically submitted their designs to public scrutiny in a half-million-dollar (AU) commission in Perth, Western Australia.

The selection process for the new public artwork of St George and the Dragon includes 'People's Choice' voting online - which has caused some controversy in the local arts community.

Almost 100 submissions have been received and are now open to viewing and voting at:
www.sculptureproject.org.au

The commission will be awarded by a selection panel in June, who will take the 'People's Choice' very seriously. In fact, if they don't select the 'People's Choice', there will no doubt be pressure from the public to explain their decision.

This raises some interesting questions around the role of the public in public art, and whether conventional commissioning and selection procedures are too restrictive.

[Giotto]

This is a very interesting and important question. Your church is so beautifully restored and in a way that will be an inspiration to your parishioners for the next thousand years.

So one question is "Which public is being consulted?". I think it would be more meaningful to have those who will have to experience the sculpture firsthand be given more weight than those who don't live in Perth or who aren't members of your church. I would think their "ownership" of the work is important. From that perspective, there is always the danger that the uneducated can be fooled by renderings or photos showing an image that won't translate in the final work. With those thoughts in mind perhaps reducing the number of entries to a manageable level and then inviting dialogue on line or maybe creating a "Focus group" chosen from your community may be ways for additional public input.

G

[rusted_art]

For anyone who remembers this and has any interest in the proceedings at all.

They have the top ten george and the dragon proposals in marquette form on display in the hall attached to st georges cathederal in perth city. I was in there today having a look and grabbed a couple of images. i apologize for the quality of them.

[outsider]

Looks like a Disney employee used the company's 3d printer.

[mantrid]

Thought St George was english. Alex Sandor Kolozsy (Image 6 on the website) has protrayed him as what looks like a roman centurion

[GlennT]

Thought St George was english. Alex Sandor Kolozsy (Image 6 on the website) has protrayed him as what looks like a roman centurion

Saint George was a 3rd century AD Roman soldier and member of the imperial guard. The English romanticized him and sometimes made him appear as a medieval knight. Now the Perthians are romanticizing him as an abstract concept, not as an actual person.

[racine]

thats just one theory Glenn, the others sound like vlad the impaler..

personally i think where art and 'education meet, only the best art will do, its not fingerpainting. likewise for public sculpture. foremost it has to be a sculpture and not a compromised design for a brief. the few public sculptures in the world which place this social excellence first usually last longest and have more impact, time will tell.
how the hell can the public that eats australian food and sara lee without question work out good art from bad?, i have australian relatives, nice, opinionated but culturally uneducated. sure be egalitarian but give the 'public' one vote in 6.
there are no checks and balences in the st georges vote, an interesting experiment but a failure. even i voted to help a friend who had entered and i live in hong kong. so who are the public? bet nobody knows. expensive way to 'discover' the obvious.

i considered applying but was discouraged by the vote system it was an obvious disaster from the beginning and seriously applying takes a huge amount of work.

[underfoot]

how the hell can the public that eats australian food without question work out good art from bad?, i have australian relatives, nice, opinionated but culturally uneducated.
yep, that just about describes all 20 million of us,
I'll just get back to chewin on my raw kangaroo haunch .....hyuk hyuk

[GlennT]

Racine, you might reconsider your last post. You begin by saying the most basic outline of historic person is just one theory, then you go on a rant about Australians whereby you may as well change your name from Racine to racist. Just because your Australian relatives are, at least according to you, which I now take with a grain of salt, culturally uneducated, does not mean you can draw broad conclusions about Australians. It would reflect poorly on anglo-Hong Kongians in general if I were to form an opinion of them based on your attitudes as stated.

As to your comments about the voting, I'm not even so sure that the public votes were given much weight in the process. I have reason to believe that one jury member in particular, and his contemporary abstract art bias, may have had a disproportionate sway over the selection process. I too am disappointed by the results, but I'm not ready to condemn the Australian people because of it. I have met and worked with a larger number of Australians than the average American, and have liked them very much. and fortunately, like underfoot, they have often have a great sense of humor.

[mantrid]

thats just one theory Glenn, the others sound like vlad the impaler..

how the hell can the public that eats australian food and sara lee without question work out good art from bad?, i have australian relatives, nice, opinionated but culturally uneducated. sure be egalitarian but give the 'public' one vote in 6.


Whether this is true or not doesn't make any difference, as the work IS for the 'opinionated but culturally uneducated' Australians, so what the culturally educated artist thinks is irrelevant. Common sense dictates that the local people who attend the institution should have the vote as they are the ones who have to look at it.

[grommet]

'common' being the point there. Unless they're tuned otherwise, people will not look beyond their comfort zone. I'd like to think that adding 'culture' adds more than they could have gotten from the local paint-yer-own place... to grow a little beyond your/their personal pod.

[GlennT]

Another aspect about this competition that is not given enough credit here is that they made much of the process transparent to the public. It was not like so many competitions where your entry falls into a black hole of unknowing, some crazy design winning and no clues as to what was accepted and what was rejected.

Here, anyone in the world with a computer access could see the designs, voice their opinion through a vote, and form their own judgements not only about the merits of each piece, but the merits of the artistic vision among those responsible for the selection.

[Giotto]

At a Gala event this evening in the Burt Memorial Hall, The Right Honourable the Lord Mayor of Perth, Lisa Scaffidi announced the winner of the People's Choice - the most votes, and the winner of the commission for the public artwork.

Gil Bruvel - St George and the Dragon - received the most votes both online and at the exhibition.

The winner of the commission for a public artwork for St George's Cathedral is:

Marcus Canning and Christian Di Vietri - Ascalon.

The selection panel felt that this work emodied the Dean's vision for St George's.

The Dean is very appreciative of the incredible amount of hard work undertaken by the artists shortlisted - each of them a winner it is own right. It was a tough and well considered decision.

Please join us in congratulating the winner artists....now the work begins.

[GlennT]

Saint George...just as I imagined him...a fluttering hanky!

[racine]

Saint George...just as I imagined him...a fluttering hanky!
yes its like washing day in texas..

or a nationalist statement ....? [am racist about nationalism] at least its not figuritive [am sometimes racist about figuration u c] i would like to point out Glen that it should be possible to be racist about ones own race....so not an incorrect suggestion or paradox, bravo!

so how much of the vote did this supposed Perthian public have? and how many were nettizens from everywhere? whats it all about?

if theres a drift towards this kind of commissioning i suggest to give up sculpture and design these big screens with soap and sport... would get rich quick. we can dispose of art and give the people what they ..want and be beloved of the australian public yipee hoooray! im converted...

[Giotto]

Please join us in congratulating the winner artists....now the work begins.

Yes congratulations to the winning artists and now the work begins. I did get a peek at their schedule and it's going to be grueling....

Monday: hire structural engineers
Tuesday.: buy pole & flashlight
Wednesday: send drawings to sheet metal fabricator
Thursday: hire contractor to assemble sculpture
Friday: Cash check

G

[grommet]

loved the hanky, it's lacking in stuffiness.

[evaldart]

Every artist should leap at the chance to deal with an artpiece inspired by a DRAGON...heros, ho hum, but a DRAGON...and fiery breath, and huge wingspans and piercing horns, and talons and huge teeth...better than a T-rex...right up there with King Kong and God-freakin'-zilla.
A missed opportunity for EVERYONE. And you wonder why "culture" is so lame. Too bad.

[grommet]

more space for imagination; seen one dragon...:rolleyes:

[GlennT]

Every artist should leap at the chance to deal with an artpiece inspired by a DRAGON...heros, ho hum, but a DRAGON...A missed opportunity for EVERYONE.

The winning entry was auspicisous for missing both hero and dragon, but emphasizing....drapery? sort of like the John Cage piece, I think it is called "Silence". Just the prop of a piano and a piano player, but no music except that which you bring to the concert yourself.

Grommet, the hanky has stuffiness of a more subtle type. Perhaps you should read the pretensions regarding the piece in the artist's description.

Giotto....loved your post!

[grommet]

thanks, I like it even better now.:)

[Biomorph]

The whole thing disturbs me. The winner purportedly exemplifies the Dean's vision. If the Dean would have thought thru his vision [he is supposed to have some idea of it] and posted some reasonable parameters, a lot of time and honest effort would have been saved. I did not favor a lot of the figurative stuff [over the top Victorian], but it at least conveyed St. George which the winner does not. If he wanted a departure from the traditional, he should have said so at the outset. He owed art and the artists that much. It might have been interesting to see all entries in an abstract St. George contest. This apples and oranges was wasteful and did not push us ahead much. The voting was somewhat interesting, but, in context, only muddied things up more. Seeing the entries was, however, a somewhat redeeming plus.

[GlennT]

An excellent point Biomorph. I rarely enter competitions because so much time is involved with no remuneration, only to be wasted if the committee or whomever is looking for something so completely different as figurative v. abstract.

Had the "Dean's vision" been at least clear about some things, it would have made, for them, a less broad and interesting competition, but many of the artists would not have been willing to provide free entertainment at personal sacrifice to make their competition look better.

It is disengenous to hail a result on the basis of relating closely to the "Dean's vision", without that having been a stated goal or criteria at the outset. And clearly that vision carried much more weight than the voice of the people, who, like me, consistently liked Bruvel's work the best from among the finalists.

[Giotto]

My personal feeling is that the effort to arrive at a solution that exemplified St. George philosophically yet embodied a sense of place with the gothic revival church failed. I think many of the sculptors were capable of better work but the way the contest was set out prevented further iterations or exploration of ideas which had merit.

As for the winner...I think there will come a day years from now where people will wonder that the sheet on the pole is about....The Dean will have many years ahead of him explaining the piece.

G

[grommet]

As for the winner...I think there will come a day years from now where people will wonder that the sheet on the pole is about....The Dean will have many years ahead of him explaining the piece.

G

Cool, so you mean it's a conversation starter?

[Giotto]

Cool, so you mean it's a conversation starter?

Sure and the conversation will probably go something like this....

"Yes you see the pole is his lance and the billowing sheet is his drape...no we left out St. george and the dragon because it's an abstract...get it ? OK so the depictions of St George didn't have billowing drape but you can't deny that's his lance...the flashlight was my idea"

G

[grommet]

yer so clever.
for a lot who extoll the virtues of a spiritual existence, you have little grasp of intangibles. maybe they'll throw in some dragon scales or something.

[GlennT]

Cool, so you mean it's a conversation starter?

So is a tadpole on a tangerine, but does that make it relevant and vital art?

[grommet]

could be, interesting visual. keep working on it.

[racine]

i dont recall seeing an australian aboriginal proposal.... there are parrallel myths, what a coup that could have been.

americans seem to wave flags at the drop of a hat but in europe we have some sensitivity derived from social memory here..
the st georges flag is a british empire nationalist symbol, post war this king and country thing dissipated. previously used on churches only on st georges day which was an un sung national day and on low brow sporting events. but lately increasingly used as intolerance spreads. revivalists now wish st georges day celebrations... and the british nationalist party starts to get seats at european parliament. if they one day get all the seats we are out of a job,[ unless we like wagener].
however im sure the great church will lead us on the right path.......onward christian soldiers....

[grommet]

americans seem to wave flags at the drop of a hat but in europe we...[ blah, blah]

thanks for the generalization. In my experience, generalization can happen anywhere, generally speaking.

[GlennT]

Racine, you're on a roll. What's next? All Chinese look alike?

[Giotto]

Racine
Brilliant suggestion using a native theme for St. George. You exemplify the unique position artists have to hold mirrors for us.

Grommet
Continuing the "conversation " with the Dean

"OK so I see the winning work has no St. George, no horse and no Dragon....fine can you tell me who sculpted it. ?"

"Ahem well technically it wasn't sculpted but rather drawn on a computer and the fabricated."

" Oh I see you had a sculpture contest to sculpt St. George and the winner didn't include him and didn't sculpt it ...is that right ?"

"well no there was Larry the sheet metal guy... he sculpted it..he's an artist you know"

G

G

[grommet]

To readers, despite numerous attempts, his cleverness remained elusive. Unphased, he chortled to himself and returned alone to his clay.

Let me know when you're done.:rolleyes:

[Giotto]

Yes Dear Grommet...I tease you..why ? it's the fire burning within me...I won't be done until you give me a kiss

G

[grommet]

i see, so it's a 'never' kind of thing.

[Giotto]

Kissing is good for you Grommet..you should try it...
G

[GlennT]

I was chortling right along with Giotto. Wouldn't try the kiss though without some radiation protection.:eek::D

[grommet]

why do i feel like the wolves are circling? Back off vermin!

[Giotto]

I'm sorry Grommet there is just too much irony here for me not to take some cheap shots...so this is my last "Conversation with the Dean"

"Ok... lets talk about the "sense of place" and your vision...to me the sculpture looks like a huge erect pole surrounded by a bed sheet. How does this fit with the church ?"

"The Church ? Oh no, The design criteria was referring to my place...my apartment."

"I see well then tell us about your vision"

I don't know I just woke up one morning and there it was

G

[tomdanahy]

Well the votes were counted and the selection wasn't it. Whether you agreed or disagreed, this seems like a sham; why ask the public to vote and ignore their choice. Next the selection was justified as "...not wanting just another man on a horse..."! Had this been communicated to the artists submitting, you can be sure the submissions would have been different. And the artist just happens to be from Perth, a coincedence? I doubt it. In sports this would be a "homer" decision. I'm disappointed and feel scammed. I'll bet the nine who weren't selected feel similarly.

[Tlouis]

It's just this sort of mindless tripe that sends the average viewer rushing toward the cake frosting paintings of Thomas Kincade with open arms.

[Mr. Malloy]

Why, after aLL, does George have a striking similarity to Quixote ??? Who is by the way a great idol. And more Saintly than a Christian Church's definition of a Saint. No offense intended.

[StevenW]

Well congrats to Gil, I didn't know his was chosen until now. Despite there being criticisms from many different angles I think its important to support him and the work and not frown about it.

It will be interesting to see how it all turns out and I have a lot of questions, particularly about the production itself and costs and such and to me it looks like one of those things where one could easily walk away after a year or two of work and barely break-even, but it's just a hunch..

[GlennT]

Well congrats to Gil, I didn't know his was chosen until now.

It wasn't. He received the most public support in votes, but was not given the commission.

[StevenW]

Oh, I thought that's what it said when I clicked on the site.. So who won or are they still deciding?

[rusted_art]

the stick with the white flag on it won. I guess that is the only real way of defeating the dragons.. powerlessness.

[StevenW]

Well of all the fine print nerve.. I just glanced and saw Gil's name first so I just assumed he got it.. My apologies to Gil, Marcus and Christian.. I did think his was going to get it based on the finalist's, but so much for that.. Anyway, on a positive note it could be a blessing in disguise as to me it looked very expensive to have something like that fabricated, while the flag and pole could be done cheaper..

Anyway; Congrat's to Marcus and Christian.

[DonnyBaby]

What a shame that all the effort came to this.

A mind-numbing travesty cooked up by a jury composed of museum curator snobs who are compelled to choose the most "radical" (and may I add local artist's) design to prove how hip and avant garde they are and to justify their positions at the bull-shit institutions where they wield their anti-esthetic snobbery.

What else can you expect from a bunch of isolated rubes in Perth? The dopes at St. George's deserve to live with this eyesore. Cheers!

[rusted_art]

What else can you expect from a bunch of isolated rubes in Perth?

well then of course there was this.....

http://australianscreen.com.au/titles/bigger-texas/clip2/