Critic vs Collector

[evaldart]

Robert Hughes always cracks me up. He has indeed made it his task to expose the charaders. And not afraid of anyone. Too bad he didnt have it in him to pick up a hammer. He might have been a good one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw1neeF_GNc

I almost pity the poor little rich guy, there.

[outsider]

I pity Robert Hughes's son who was a sculptor and committed suicide at age 31.

[StevenW]

I don't pity anyone who commits suicide, just those they leave behind.. Suicide is a permanant solution to a temporary problem and the most selfish act a person can commit next to murder or rape..

[LimeCutter]

I don't pity anyone who commits suicide, just those they leave behind.. Suicide is a permanant solution to a temporary problem and the most selfish act a person can commit next to murder or rape..

I have to strongly disagree with this statement. Although I agree it is hard on those left behind - a person must have been in deep turmoil to do something so drastic. Whether physical or mental, it may actually be more than that person can take. It may also be a solution to a permanant problem (like cancer for instance). It may have been the case that those around them did little to help. The point is that you don't know the circumstances around each death and making a sweeping statement like that demonstrates a lack of real thought on the subject.

If you have been touched by it yourself I can understand you feeling strongly about it.

[LimeCutter]

I almost pity the poor little rich guy, there.

I hadn't come across Robert Hughes before, and I am not convinced by the Warhol defense that the poor little rich guy put up. That's part of the problem with pop art - it's transient nature and timeness - just like a pop song, shallow media based, culturally sensitive yet passing and ultimately dispossable. Processes that are easily reproducable and mass marketable.

In the case of the art collector - it seemed to be a money thing and not an art thing - shame really

[StevenW]

I have to strongly disagree with this statement. Although I agree it is hard on those left behind - a person must have been in deep turmoil to do something so drastic. Whether physical or mental, it may actually be more than that person can take. It may also be a solution to a permanant problem (like cancer for instance). It may have been the case that those around them did little to help. The point is that you don't know the circumstances around each death and making a sweeping statement like that demonstrates a lack of real thought on the subject.

If you have been touched by it yourself I can understand you feeling strongly about it.

Ya I have been touched by it personally and no, I have given it no small amount of thought.. I've thought about it almost every day for 25 years.

I think Hughes in his funny bit of stoicism is probably spot on in his observations, but even in the most convincing of certainties there is always an element of doubt, or at least there should be to a rationale person.

[outsider]

Can you imagine one of the worlds most powerful art critics as your father if you were a sculptor? That's the pity. I wonder how hard Hughes was on his son's art? Growing up trying to please that man must have been awful.

[underfoot]

Robert Hughes always cracks me up. And not afraid of anyone.
.
yet another Aussie tells it like he sees it.
"the truth shall set you free, and get you kicked out of parties" quote.
can't agree with all of his ramblings but he's a damn good read

I pity Robert Hughes's son who was a sculptor and committed suicide at age 31.
Outsider, do the research before you start pointing fingers.
bad form mate.:(

[outsider]

"Hughes and Emerson had one child, Danton (30 September 1967 - 2002), named after the French revolutionary, Georges Danton. Danton became a sculptor and lived in Sydney's Blue Mountains. In 2002, at age 34, Danton Hughes took his own life by gassing himself with his car in the garage."

[StevenW]

I watched the Bedford incident last night after all the easter egg hunting and everyone went home happy and stuffed.. Another great Lib Nuker flick with Sidney Portier as the insightful lib journalist.. Seriously, the only thing that wiki entry is missing is that he was a self-absorbed little twat who wanted to get back at everyone who loved him in the most insidious way possible.. Great, you win... Next!

[underfoot]

Danton Hughes had been completely estranged from his father for many years before taking his own life.
he did however have a close relationship with his (270lb, cocaine and heroin addicted, lesbian) mother, who had just been diagnosed with terminal cancer.
I'm not suggesting this is reason for his suicide either,
I'm saying NOBODY knows his reasons, not even you outsider

[denise lassaw]

Umm I guess I missed this news. Another Hughes, Nicolas Hughes also committed suicide in Fairbanks AK this week- he was the son of Slyvia Plath- another sad story. I know too many people who chose to die and left us wondering, wondering forever just why they did it.

But regarding critics I just found this quote from Harold Rosenberg, although it was written in 1964 it seems contemporary to me.

Denise


"Art criticism is probably the only remaining intellectual activity,
not excluding theology, in which pre-Darwinian minds continue to
affirm value systems dissociated from any observable phenomena."

Harold Rosenberg, Art at Mid-Century, 1964

[rusted_art]

while we are on the subject of quotes here is one from a local critic

"There are few things in art that are quite as boring as mindless displays of technical skill"
Sebastian Smee

rubbish..

[suburbanartists]

while we are on the subject of quotes here is one from a local critic

"There are few things in art that are quite as boring as mindless displays of technical skill"
Sebastian Smee

rubbish..

I like that quote. If all you do is technically perfect work than really you are just a great craftsman. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Eval great utube clip. That ornery bastard is pretty funny. Love the hirst slam.

[grhb]

As well as is collection of critical essays Ol' Hughes wrote a great book on the history of Aussie-land, dispelling the myth that the continent was actually populated by irish political prisoners not petty thieves. He's a great debunker, but an awful driver, so i hear.

[Ries]

I LIKE mindless displays of technical skill.

But I find most critics pretty boring.

[Blake]

Fantastic
I have not been on the board for a while and the first thread I find is this great video and some debate, (OK, I admit that the video was better than the debate).
How refreshing to hear this critic, I could just imagine what he might say about my work..... it's good to think about what he might say every once in a while, it keeps us honest and hopefully improving.
I couldn't agree more with Hughes about Warhol or Hirst, but then what do I know I most likely err on the mindless technical skill side but I do love mindless displays of technical skill especially in machinery.... cars for example.
Thanks for the entertainment
I have missed you guys I just didn't know how much
Blake

[grommet]

is this one of those 'boys and their toys' conversations?
I prefer mindful displays of technical skill.

[I.Chonov]

is this one of those 'boys and their toys' conversations?
I prefer mindful displays of technical skill.

Good one , grommet:) . But I still prefer the mindless one , than no skill at all.And , being a bit on the craft side myself , I feel suspicious when somebody says
"There are few things in art that are quite as boring as mindless displays of technical skill"

- just can't help thinking it's sour old grapes;)

[GlennT]

If great technical skill is found boring, it may be because such mastery is so far from the ability of the writer that there is no internal resonance for which he or she can relate to in seeing it. It goes in one eyeball and out the other without having found a brain particle of shared experience to latch onto.

[evaldart]

Hah, these art-critics are our comedians. Some are sharp witted (not like a sharp chisel). They're certainly more entertaining than philosphers, poets and historians, for gods sake.

If you've ever read Hughes skewering Schnabel you rolled on the floor gasping delightfully for a breath. :D:D:D

[grhb]

While i appreciate the "Blob" i can't chime in with the anti-intellectualism, nor would he brook that sort of foolishness. It's strange for a herd of cats, so many artists want to belong....

Keep in mind the bloodsport everyone is chuckling at is that which many complain--critics on a field day with art they don't like. Anyone been on the the end of that beating stick? That hughes takes on the "titans" with a small "t," is tasty, especially if shooting fish in a barrel is your sort of thing. But before we go too far, the guy is a mean-spirited shit about it, a real etonian bully, a real poobah.

I find it slightly sanctimonious for the former art critic of "Time" to talk about soulless marketing of art; there are Faustian bargains aplenty to be made by artists and critics--what about writing for the jerk-off, puff, newsmagazine of the year? I think it's still possible to make the seamless transition from Time critic to entertainment tonight co-cost/bon vivant without even an eyebrow mention in Talk of the Town http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2001/09/24/010924ta_talk_wtc

(Nothing like Time nominating the "endangered Earth" as "p" da year, while doing a publishers clearinghouse mailbox stuffer in four-color glossy...nice hypocrisy.)

Methinks the critique of quality or lack thereof by we fartistes is a canard and that many of us are really only resentful we haven't received the notariety of Schnabel or Hirst.

But let's get real: wall street proved this year it ain't a meritocracy, so i say quit griping. This is unless of course you've drunk the Evalixir, in which case I recommend a handful of oxys and a subconscious vasectomy--that way you can savage the bride and not know you're shooting blanks. :D


As for the mindlesness and boredom of technical skill: everyone here can personalize the comment, but after seeing countless renditions of unicorns, skulls, crying clowns, paint-by-number landscapes, innocuous family scenes, child busts, washington-on-the-delaware bronzes etc. done in excruciating, sometime painfully exacting detail it's hard not to concur. How 'bout an another aussie sunset, eh mate?

[grhb]

forgot to add the photo--from PBS

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/australia/bio.html

[evaldart]

Could it be Grhb that you have yet to grasp that imageries, (mis) representations, tromp'leoil handiwork and undecipherable non-objectivities are NEVER actually the subject of a real work of Art? Are you actually a sneaky little critic - necktied, bespectacled and clean - trying to play with the sculptors? Hmmmmm? :D

oh and save the "sour grapes' argument for the schoolyard. We here, aside from being bombasts of physical production, have achieved (by the fruits of said production) extra-human intellectual heights as well.

[grhb]

I guess I didn't realize I was playing with the big boys.:eek:

Ya know this whole thing about real art and real artists versus--i guess fake art and fake artists-- gets me. A few well directed comments about art and this whole community quickly goes McCarthy on itself, looking for posers under every pixel, when they should really be turning the webcam on themselves.

You're articulate--boink--you can't be an artist. Use words as well as chisels and grinders--boink--not an artist. Expressing opinions counter to the mainstream romantics--boink--not an artist.

In my short life on this board, I don't think I've ever insinuated anyone is NOT an artist, and yet because i challenge ideas, it appears as regular subtext against my words. how about we just keep it on the up and up: I don't like the "what a real artist is" claim because it seeks to control what any artist is. And while that might work in the hands of smart people sooner or later some dumb cluck will be in charge. next thing you know we've got pogroms and litmus tests--a fine community of creativity.

If it makes you feel better, E sure, sure, I'm just a pencil-necked geek, harnessing mom's computer power before wakey-time. And you forgot effeminate. :D

And back to the subject at hand, the schoolyard if you will:

---C'mon get real E, had anyone of the sculpt.net ancients produced Hirst's Virgin Mother, you all'd be falling over one another in fawning praise. Criminy the thing looks like a freakin' robot and its monstrous, that's thumbs up in Evalspeak right? So what gives, why does the poobah get such praise for venting on DH, when otherwise he'd be just another scribblin' flim flam man?

Anyone besides E, gonna tell me art doesn't require marketing?

This reminds me of a story, maybe its an allegory, maybe not:

my high school teacher brother became head of the union bargaining team and tried to fight to raise first year salaries. His biggest opposition: other teachers. The tenured bastards wanted percentage salary increases--which would be larger for those at the higher end of the pay scale. What's more, they were adamant on not changing the status of the first year teacher which had become the poster child for the "poor educator." Without the $18k starter, they couldn't pitch poverty and add to their $100k+ positions.

Seems to me, telling other creatives to be true to their creations and forget marketing or eye trickery, add ons, is exactly that: a bunch of comfortable cats who sold out long ago protecting their turf, happy to see the rubes wander/defusing their competition.

[evaldart]

Everyone knows that I dismiss Hirst because he doesnt care about making anything. He's just another wealthy participator 100%. So that big damned figuration cannot be anything worthwhile...to himself or to us. But thats just me.

Marketing and commercial venturing and compensations and commissions and pleasing folks and chats with critics, reviewers and students are all part of the grind of sustenance. All that is the greater part of the day that is unspectacular. Its also the easy part.
I relish the difficult part, the rare part, the part of experience that allows for seperation and yields inapplicable awakenings. Hughes will kick everyones ass with his languaging...better not cross him. But I cant hear any words in the heat of a better moment. The tools, the heavy metal music blairing, the straining, the sweat squeezing out, the complaining junk, the duress, determination and desparation all have me consumed and concealed. When I exit there is a cold beer waiting and a porterhouse steak coming shortly thereafter (because I took care of THAT at another time while tending to "business").

I like what Steve said in the other thread about making "one" piece of art. Maybe its all for that. The solving of perception perhaps rests there, when THAT thing (and its definitely a THING) gets accomplished. Perhaps the REAL artist is headed there. And I'm sure that it is something that cannot be shared. So it goes.

The "realness" of an artifact does not lie within the collar size of the artist, but it DOES lie within the focused preparation for the event. The training. The good stuff comes from knowing that your burst of creativity is better than its product. The box score is never as good as the ball game.

[grommet]

grhb,
perhaps it's just a question of whether you do more talking about work, or actual work. It's hard to empathize about ditch digging with a guy wearing a suit.
Demonstrating intellect also means you're up to a challenge-- a target for itchy palms.:) (hold still a minute, wouldja?)

[GlennT]

The "realness" of an artifact does not lie within the collar size of the artist, but it DOES lie within the focused preparation for the event. The training. The good stuff comes from knowing that your burst of creativity is better than its product. The box score is never as good as the ball game.

I want to affirm your sports analogy with....sports!

My coed soccer team has been undefeated in over about 3 dozen games. That is an impressive stat in a sport like this, but what the stat doesn't tell you is that in a number of games we were behind, occasionally by as many as three goals during part of the game. In one case we were behind right up to the last minute.

My team believes in and supports each other, we don't get down and start feeling like we are defeated when things don't seem to be going right. Sometimes we do everything else right but its one of those days where you just can't seem to buy a goal..people are hitting the goal posts or cross bar, or their keeper (goalie) is having the game of his life. But we know that as long as there is still time left on the clock, we can win or at least tie this thing. And we do, somehow.

We are also a good second half team. Many teams can keep up with us for one half, but not two. We play as a team, not a bunch of prima dona individuals who hold onto the ball too long. So we are passing well and making the opponents run more than they would like. On many coed teams the guys inexplicably do not pass the ball to the ladies unless it is a last resort option. Aside from being selfish, it is foolish, because they wear themselves out and don't play the field smartly by spreading the ball and having the defense chase. On my team everyone is a player. If you are open, you get the ball. Very simple, but its doing the basics well, the training as evaldart mentions, along with the harmony and focus, that keeps us at the top of our league.

Well, that's it for sports. Now for the weather. Partly cloudy and gorgeous outside! Enjoy another great day!

[grhb]

gromm,

Whether I'm a pimply teen pencilling harleys on my schoolbook covers or Damien himself, the ideas stand.

The personal stuff is a baiting technique, and I play too, so hey, I can take it.

I figured a brick in the window was coming poking at E like that. The image of him proudly defiling a muse without knowing his tubes were tied just seemed to funny to keep to myself. cheers all gotta 10-hour drive ahead a me as I'm in the Gaspé.

[grommet]

Ideas alone don't get the job done. ya gotta actually DO it. Don't waste my time if you're only sitting there dreaming.
10 hours to where?

[grhb]

Beg to differ, ideas are the job--the work is the practical application. Here i write ideas; the studio I make ideas and carry them out in materials.


10 hours to Quebec city along the coast. The Perce rock is a pretty thing bathed in sunset light; you can almost touch it from the inside the swarm of motel rooms surrounding it. :(

[grommet]

Beg to differ, ideas are the job--the work is the practical application. Here i write ideas; the studio I make ideas and carry them out in materials.


10 hours to Quebec city along the coast. The Perce rock is a pretty thing bathed in sunset light; you can almost touch it from the inside the swarm of motel rooms surrounding it. :(

well you seem to have no trouble thinking, so maybe you need to up your expectations in regard to execution.

tourist trap hell?

[rusted_art]

oh well there goes another good string down the gurgler :-}.

heres another quote. this... time my own

"art critic or art cynic?"

[grommet]

oh well there goes another good string down the gurgler :-}.

heres another quote. this... time my own

"art critic or art cynic?"

okay, back to topic. Maybe the critics' gleeful moments are building egos to dizzying heights for the sole purpose of giving that swift jab to deflate the pendulous bobbing ego. It's a kindness really, without that clinical cut, any rabid dog could sprint by and tear that fleshy blob from your shoulders. Much harder to repair?
professional artist wrangler?