New to the shark tank (poll)

[steponmebbbboom]

First, a little background on me:

I have no formal art training and a poor grasp on art theory. I have wanted to join the art community as a contributing artist for a number of years now. I cant manage my own finances as they are, much less with a five figure debtload so getting my BFA has never been an option, and Im not sure I would do well at it anyway. I do on the other hand have a few ideas for innovative technology based sculpture and have tentatively secured studio space at a local artists collective here in town. My latest ideas involve bisecting common household appliances with a clean cut through strategic and perhaps multiple angles. The specifics of which Ill withhold until they become private domain ;) My intentions with my art are not so much a means of income but rather a means of contributing to the ongoing discussion that is art. And therein lies my dilemma.

Now, the poll:

How many of you have a formal education in the arts?

Or further, what value do you place on it? How does the lack thereof limit your abilities and opportunities? What advice could you give me?

[ironman]

Hi, I don't have an art degree but I do have years of invaluable training in painting, drawing and sculpture (all privately taught). Life drawing is a must so that you learn how to SEE as an artist sees. I also apprenticed to a sculptor for 2 years. I am fortunate to be a New Yorker and spent many many days in the art museums and galleries that NYC has to offer. I'm also a voracious reader of books on art theory, criticism and practice. I can't stress enough the life drawing thing and it's not so much that you learn to draw like Leonardo but that you learn to SEE. A degree can't hurt but in the end it's the work that counts. I don't live in NYC any more and I do miss the art scene there and when I go back, once a year for family stuff I make sure and take time away to visit the galleries and museums. Good luck with your new work, Jeff

[jwebb]

The pros and cons of Art Education have already been debated and jawed about elsewhere on these pages, but like most of our subjects, it never ends. I have a BFA, which took me eight years to complete. I think both having an education in Art, and not having one, can "limit your abilities and opportunities". I know people who suffer from both maladies. I agree with Ironman that several years of intense concentration on life drawing is invaluable experience. And that its more about learning to "see" than to draw. In the long run, I believe trying to be an artist is its own reward (like they used to say about "virtue"). It's the richest life I know, though my "success" in conventional terms, has been minimal so far.

[sculptor]

I had studied art and design and related fields in 5 universities over 13 years and found the best learning after hours in the art department working with fellow students. The universities were woefully inable to teach figurative sculpture.

Then, I accidentally found a figurative sculpting mentor, John Kroll, who was the main influence on my artistic developement.

the story
I was building my studio behind my house in Chicago, up on the scaffold laying concrete block. My dalmation dog Doobie was up on the scaffold with me, when a fellow from across the ally came out walking his german shepard dog Travis. Doobie took one look and lept the block wall landing squarely on Travis' back, and they went at it tooth and claw. Terribly imbarrased, I vaulted the wall after Doobie and joind in trying to break up the dogfight. When it was over, the dogs seemed unscathed, but John and I were both bleeding from cuts and scratches, so I invited him up for peroxide and bandages. We had a couple beers as he introduced himself as a sculptor, and I went over to his studio to take a look, and one thing led to another and he invited me to share his studio, clay, models, and tools. Over the next few years, he led me to buy my own tools, and introduced me to other figurative sculptors with whom I had the privelage to work and from whom,along with some extreemly patient models, I learned the figure.

John always emphasized process over product. Art is a journey. the pieces we create aren't the goal, they are just markers along the trail behind us.

It is indeed all about learning to see and then developing your own voice.

I remember at the end of the roy rogers and dale evans show, they would sing
"happy trails to you....."

rod

[warren01]

stepon,

I liked the way you said, “you have no formal training"........... instead of saying self-taught. Well over used phrase and in my opinion, I think we do a lot of teaching ourselves.
I do not have an art degree either. Yet, I have had many drawing and painting classes (some a whole semester long at community colleges, whoopee ) to help me understand art. I still cannot draw or paint but it was worth taking the classes. In addition, I have taken many workshops or classes in working metal. Probably if I added all of the time up, I could be well on to getting a degree.
I am some times embarrassed about not having an art degree. When you are at a showing and people come up and ask, "So where did you study art or get your degree?" I just shrug my shoulders, give a big smile, and say my garage.
I would really like to take more art training. I do not know if it would help me financially or make me famous (wish, wish, wish and do a little dreaming). It probably could make me a better sculpture, because my own biggest criticism is that I have the techniques and knowledge on how to make but lack sometimes in being creative.

PS Just logging in to this fantastic site everyday is a valuable learning experience.

[steponmebbbboom]

Interesting Warren, a lot of what you said rings true in my own experience. I have been fortunate to be able to draw on my mechanical abilities and interests as a medium. So for me the big challenge has been applying and discussing context.

When I pick up one of the more popular art magazines I get blown away by the complexity of the discussions in them. Most of them are sociopolitical in nature. I find their complexity and occasional incomprehensibility fascinating. These are the very topics I have struggled to understand all my life, and I think that's what attracts me to it. So I have always been wary of committing to an education in the arts. I have never been a good study in these topics, as much as I want to understand them. But I see these things being discussed so much in contemporary art, I don't see a way around going back to school and learning them. I worry that I would have such a hard time getting through school that I would lose all enjoyment of art. Some of what I love about art is this feeling I get when discussing it and reading about it, these few moments of clarity and understanding amid a huge expanse of confusion.

And it's not a feeling I can feel proud of. It may work for me as an observer, but as an artist my ideas seem rather basic. But maybe that's because I understand it. My more gifted contemporaries seem enthusiastic about my ideas, and that's probably why I'm starting to seriously pursue a career of my own. But I'm worried I just don't have enough grasp of theory to pull any of it off. I would like to think that all art has meaning, that there is no such thing as "bad art", but we all know few people think that way. I certainly don't. I know this much, meaning is not the sole responsibility of the artist, and for all I know my next series could be universally panned as "naive" or even "grandiose" without my ever intending it to be.

I often feel lucky I didnt choose to paint. I would really be cooked then. I have nothing but profound respect for someone who decides to pursue a career in the arts without at least one or the other, medium or voice.

[rderr.com]

Warren 01

I am self-taught; not a chess thumper nor a complaint; the simple reality of the circumstance. But I know that in 400 years my biography will be writ large. Because none of the work produced by Robert Donald Derr was done to provide pride of place at either table or bed, or here-after, but as a way forward.

Art iis provocation. All else decoration.

[sculptor]

Warren 01

I am self-taught;
Art is provocation. All else decoration.

as/re "self taught" we intellectual snobs refer to that as autodidactic.

Which, incidentally, I used to think of myself as (autodidactic) but then I realized the importance of my mentors and peers and the lessons I've learned from them, and came to the concept that I am not autodidactic, but rather self motivated and self directed.


(psst-----that's supposed to be humor)
rod

[warren01]

Rod, hey thanks for the new word, I had to look it up in the dictionary (just self-taught myself a new word :p ).
Auto = self and didactic = instructive

Now whenever I get my web page up or send out a resume I can put:

Education: Autodidactic

And Bob there is nothing wrong with saying self-taught, just for me seems to be so basic "sometimes".
Couple of years ago the local newspaper did a little story on me. When the interviewer started asking about my art education I was lost for words. Not that I am not proud to be self-taught, just was trying to glamorize the phrase. Finally said "none" and the subject was dropped. Heck, I am proud that I have devoted time and energy to teach myself.
Don't have to show me how to hold a hammer, I can figure out what end is the handle. ;)

warren

[steponmebbbboom]

I'm going to have a hard time weaving that word into a conversation ;)

Since my art is more conceptual than figurative, I am starting to doubt whether the benefits of a full BFA would be worth the costs and effort. As much as I would like to have that title, I wonder if a different major would be better suited to what I want to study. Which academic disciplines did you all find useful (if any) in helping mature your influences and appreciation of your art? I realise this is a subjective topic...

[sculptor]

I'm going to have a hard time weaving that word into a conversation ;)

Since my art is more conceptual than figurative, I am starting to doubt whether the benefits of a full BFA would be worth the costs and effort. As much as I would like to have that title, I wonder if a different major would be better suited to what I want to study. Which academic disciplines did you all find useful (if any) in helping mature your influences and appreciation of your art? I realise this is a subjective topic...

a bfa and $5.00 will get you a cup of coffee-----long ago, we used to say,..."a bfa and a dime".......an MFA is also of dubious value---perhaps the connections available and credentialization is of benefit......re/ Ted Stank's post...Got a show in Chelsea

I have studied political science, philosophy, mythology, the classics, art, archetecture, design, psychology, business communications, anthropology, surveying, archeaology, chemistry, meteorology, chinese and european history.....all in an attempt to understand the physical world and the human animal.....and......took a couple degrees in art and archetecture, and in liberal arts.....
my biggest influences were from Buckminster Fuller, reading Suzuki(Zen), reading Gregory Bateson's "a journey of the mind" studying existential philosophy, studying comparative mythologies, and the sciences.

My biggest art influences were from playing hooky and spending days in museums and the art institute.
And lastly, my sculpting mentors.

You gain from an education what you invest in it.
If you want a ticket to a well paying job from your education, I will be of no help.
If you wish to hone the critical mind----you will study till death stops you cold.

best of wishes for your journey
rod

[obseq]

I have a BFA but the only real value I place within that venture is access.

By access, I am referring to the (free)dom to use facilties, resources, and materials at will wthout worrying about excessive production costs :D

I am currently working on my portfolio to apply for my MFA and that underlying motivation remains--Access and space without the financial burden of production, rather than being out of school, as I am now and stuffed in an overpriced apartment sleeping next to 3 large sculptures that account for half of my apartment's volume.

...A studio would be wonderful. :(

I must admit though.....Personally, this time away from school has been the most rewarding as an artist. Here, away from the tendrils of deadlines and assigned work, you manage to discover if your own vision can evolve by the virtue of your own motivation and the ability to keep asking the questions that serve as inspiration.

The bottom line is that I desperately want to see my ideas come to fruition.


Welcome to the board and best of luck!

[Easynow]

You can be self-taught, or you can get a degree, and you can get a degree without really learning anything- so watch out for that. The best of both worlds is to be voracious and use every tool at your disposal to fully develop yourself as an artist. Different people choose different paths- none is inherently better or worse. The art world is mostly controlled by academics though and that causes those with degrees to get more respect at first- BUT it's the art that matters in the end. That and never giving up will be what gets you there- not a piece of paper.

[brendino]

hola
first of all...i'm new to this whole thread thing...what do you have to do to start your own thread? to pose your own question?

second...I can say, from people that i've met who have found some roundabout way of making their art their life, that art school can be necessary thing for some...if you wound up being a sculptor, it's probably because you, at one time, had a propensity to seek out new things that provided some kind of perplexing, intellectual stimulation...you don't get to be a sculptor by being closed off to the world or narrowed greatly by some overbearing professional aspiration...if you're serious about it...it kind of helps the wandering mind to be locked into "a program," the poverty and lack of a job market for these things aside, it just helps some to make that existensial choice, that leap of faith to say, by god man! i am in fact a sculptor and this is what i'm doing, i showed up to class and got my degree, so...now it's official, so let's get on with it...maybe, i don't know

[iron ant]

Although I have learned more about "art" outside of school ,earning a Bfa was good for me in a techicall standpoint.After my first foundry class ,I dropped out of business school and enterd art.I basically blew the opportunity to run a family business worth several hundred million to be a starving artist.The facilitys were a bit lacking,but where else could you do five bronze castings for a seventy dollar lab fee.I agree with whoever mentioned learning more after hours big time.Are sculpture department was on top of a four story building which was supposed to be closed at ten.Someone snagged a master key ,and although the proffesors new it ,we worked late,drank beer,smoked alittle pocko into the night constantly.Basically having the studio with it's equipment was huge.It took me six years after school to sell enough to set up a nice metal studio,and still trying to always buy tools.Bottom line it is in the heart and will to have the need to create,but you do not have to go to art school,but the facilities are a huge plus unless you have some deep pockets.Passion over pockets for me..................IA

[Blake]

I am very late to this thread (I was off try to earn enough money to support my sculpture) but I would like to offer my comments for what they are worth.
I graduated with a BFA despite my sculpture professor telling me to give up and find something else to do. The degree was of great value without question however, later I found a night course in figurative sculpture where I was able to learn about what interested me: “the figure” and I learned a great deal with this hands on course. Learning to see is the important thing, but I think that Rods' mentor John Kroll said it best
“Process over product. Art is a journey the pieces we create aren't the goal, they are just markers along the trail behind us.”
Thanks for sharing that Rod I am about to put that up on my wall.
I have always studied and I will continue to study, I would like to do the Richard Mac Donald course and may be the oldest student there at 49 but I don't mind. People sometimes ask me if I give classes and I tell them that I haven't finished taking them yet. There are so many places that we can learn from, to quote Warren01 “Just logging in to this fantastic site everyday is a valuable learning experience.” and the critical feedback that I have received from this site has been of such great value to me as a learning experience.

I rely on others to teach me and most people can teach me something if I listen closely enough to them to hear what they have said. (This site is a great example of this) But it is often the artists and art that I admire that I learn from, I study what was done and I often try it myself, then I do it again as I will never do it the second time as poorly as I did it the first.
Welcome to the shark tank Stepon I am sure you will do very well with us sharks.
Blake