Water Fountain

[sculptorsam]

I just got a call from a couple interested in a work of mine integrated into a water fountain. I have no experiece working with water. If anybody out there has some experience with this area, I'm interested in things I should keep an eye out for. I believe they are looking for an irregular fountain that uses "shooting" water more than simply "cascading," but everything is open at this point.

Perhaps it will end up being cheaper to hire an actual fountain company to execute my design and then add the sculptural parts myself. That doesn't sound cheap though.

I already know I won't be able to use the Cor-ten that I love due to the constant moisture exposure. So either stainless or industrial quality paint over steel perhaps. What I'd love to look into is the process of spraying molten metals onto a steel base. I don't think this commission will be big enough to outfit myself with that set-up though.

Anyway, just kicking ideas around. Thanks.

Sam

[oddist]

Hey, good for you. I'd do my best to get this done. I can picture your organic shapes working really well with water.

Have you ever thought of working in copper or bronze? Your patchwork technique over a frame I think would lend itself to this. Both copper and bronze can be welded I believe. No experience myself, though I have thought about bronze. Someday...

Sealing a steel piece I see as being really tough. Possibly, if there are absoluteley no holes, a thick powder coat might work. Electrostatic attraction gets those little paint particles everywhere...hopefully.

good luck

oddist (www.torchandpalette.com)

[sculptorsam]

Thanks, oddist. I had thought about bronze but not copper. Didn't we talk about wire welding copper on here somewhere? Is it possible/easy? That would lend itself to some nice, natural colors. They just replaced the copper roof on a Cathedral in the Twin Cities not too long ago and I remember talk about copper having a life-span of some set length. If it's 100 years, that might work, but the longer the better.

Bronze sounds expensive but would be very, very nice. I just saw a show of Richard Hunt's work and visited his sattelite studio where he has a bunch of fabricated bronze sculptures.

[JAZ]

Hey congratulations, Sam.
Actually, I've had two pieces powdercoated for outdoor use and both show the beginnings of rust after only a summer outside. One, probably because it was a clear powder coat and the sun is a factor there, the other was solid white, though. It could also be that this particular company didn't do the job right, but how do you know? The small white one looked spectacular when it was first done, creamy and smooth, with no obvious pinholes or anything.
Water is tricky. Stainless, or as Oddist says, copper or bronze would probably make more sense. You can get fountain mechanizms of different types over the counter at some garden/landscaping shops. Lots of people put in their own water features on their property, so check out your local phone book.
I made a ceramic horizontal fountain (think brook with faces for stones) when I was at the Museum school. I'm no engineer, but got that to work no problem with a pump I think I got at Home Depot. It was smaller than what you want, but look around. I think the do-it-yourself plan will work for you on this one.
JAZ

[JAZ]

I was just thinking - couldn't you design it so that you do a cor-ten something that's on a little island with the water flowing around it, or beneath it or something? Or shooting up from the base and heading away from the sculpture maybe?

[oddist]

Link here for the conversation on welding bronze:

http://www.sculpture.net/community/showthread.php?p=7386#post7386

[fritchie]

Sam - Congratulations on the fountain interest, but I wouldn't discount the difficulties of working with moving water. Here are some random thoughts on both materials and mechanisms.

On materials - bronze is available in sheet, in many formulations, and probably in many thicknesses. From what I know (indirectly), it is easily welded with a tig, which I believe you use. Copper, I believe it's been said here, can be welded but is much trickier. I would guess that sheet copper is more expensive, and generally is available only in thinner formulations.

You might consider lead, though it’s not as appealing visually. It should be nearly inert to water damage. Many of the figurative European sculptors used lead in the 1940's and possibly even 1930's, because other materials were unavailable.

I would be VERY careful in choosing a water mechanism: pump, reservoir, tubing/piping, spouts, strainers, and so on. I bought a small, fairly cheap pump and some rubber hosing at a garden store here 15 or so years ago, for a display at an annual garden show. I played with it quite a bit, thinking I might want to do fountains myself, but it simply has sat since then. Algae, leaves, twigs, and general debris, not to mention possible fish, frog, and plant-matter (decorative) complications, all can be problems.

Go for it!! But be careful.

[fritchie]

Sam - Congratulations on the fountain interest, but I wouldn't discount the difficulties of working with moving water. Here are some random thoughts on both materials and mechanisms.

On materials - bronze is available in sheet, in many formulations, and probably in many thicknesses. From what I know (indirectly), it is easily welded with a tig, which I believe you use. Copper, I believe it's been said here, can be welded but is much trickier. I would guess that sheet copper is more expensive, and generally is available only in thinner formulations.

You might consider lead, though it’s not as appealing visually. It should be nearly inert to water damage. Many of the figurative European sculptors used lead in the 1940's and possibly even 1930's, because other materials were unavailable.

I would be VERY careful in choosing a water mechanism: pump, reservoir, tubing/piping, spouts, strainers, and so on. I bought a small, fairly cheap pump and some rubber hosing at a garden store here 15 or so years ago, for a display at an annual garden show. I played with it quite a bit, thinking I might want to do fountains myself, but it simply has sat since then. Algae, leaves, twigs, and general debris, not to mention possible fish, frog, and plant-matter (decorative) complications, all can be problems.

Go for it!! But be careful.

[sculptor]

Sam:

pumps and ice and winter and ----long ago, I built a fountain with a submersible pump-----maintenance failed and it died-----I've seen pumps that suck and stand above the water and when turned off drain down on their own........next fountain gets one of those-----gpm and psi are almost infinitely variable so you can accommodate almost any design----money being a factor

what's the budget?

do you have a design in mind?

When i try to visualize one of your sculptures enhanced by water, I see water in a low presssure spray shooting straight up, then curving and falling in a gentle organic curve, then a hard solid streem of water mimicing one of your connecting lines, being captured in a hollow mitt, then redirected downward------but all that is just using water to mimic the shapes I've seen in your work....without adding anything new.....nor enhancing anything

Let us know your thoughts?

rod
sculptor (http://home.mindspring.com/~mandali/)

[sculptorsam]

Thanks guys. After thinking about it some more, and getting the lowdown on exactly who my prospective patrons are, I think the waterworks will have to be subcontracted out. I don't think the budget is really an issue, which is ideal. It is good to be familiar with problems of pressure, maintenance, seasonal issues, etc. to help me design though. I'll have to do a bunch of research and look at fountain designs so I can speak intelligently to whoever I'm dealing with.

But at this point, it really is in the beginning stages, and who knows what could happen. I couldn't even get a ballpark figure of height out of them (though it will be going in a 20 foot diameter driveway entrance circle), but I think they want it big and eye-catching. A real "unique conversation piece," as they put it. They called me up early this morning before I'd had a chance to make some coffee and proposed it to me. I'm afraid I didn't evince the proper enthusiasm, instead first seeing all these other issues that would have to be resolved. It's my own fault for answering the phone I guess.

Good suggestion for Cor-ten away from the water, JAZ. I think I'll end up with a combination of materials. I should go back and study that electrolosis discussion we had a while back. Maybe I can understand it this time.

[EJB]

Building a fountain falls somewhere between sword swallowing and beating the train to the crossing. One should think long and hard about doing any of these. There is no shortage of beautiful planters which began their life as a great idea for a fountain.
JAZ had the best suggestion for a beginner at this, which is to keep the sculpture and the water elements essentially seperate entities. This allows the artist to focus on the art and a fountain specialist to keep the water running. It is a common mistake for artists and especially collectors to assume that water spilling over or plashing on a good sculpture will make a good fountain. Water must be treated as another material you are incorporating in your piece just as one would combine elements of metal, wood, stone or plastic, etc.

Without going into enormous detail, the key to a succesful fountain is simplicity. Design complexity leads to difficulty which leads to abandonment. Minimal number of working parts, minimal amount of plumbing, simple and durable construction of the sculpture elements, ease of maintenace and above all, the whole thing should be able to disassemble clean, refinish and replace any of its parts because it WILL become necessary.

In my opinion suitable materials are stainless steel, copper, bronze, non-sedimentary stone, ceramic. Each of these still have their own limits and conditions. Mixing metal types, not good. Use of iron or steel, definitely not good. There is no magic coating that will keep these from rusting. The only possible exception is porcelain enamel, the trick is keeping your piece from looking like a toilet.

Water, as they say, is the universal solvent. Think of your fountain as being like a bathroom, a boat or a nuclear power plant. Each of these are built with varying degress of success and no matter how well made are replaced every so often or become the nightmare inherited by your children.

[sculptorsam]

Outstanding post, Ed. Those were basically my thoughts upon being pitched the idea. Why not just a huge, awesome sculpture and leave it at that? But this high-speed internet doesn't pay for itself so if the Man calls me up and offers me work, I really can't thumb my nose at him.

Why do you discourage mixing materials? Maintenance reasons? Aesthetic reasons? Combination?

And I have actually built a boat, albeit a small one. Oddly enough, I do get a similar feeling thinking about this project as I do that large river cruiser I'd like to build one day.

[Araich]

Why do you discourage mixing materials? Maintenance reasons? Aesthetic reasons? Combination? A very real possiblity is cathodic reaction between metal types.

Knowing your work, I would be inclined towards stainless or bronze. Bronze can be MIG'd and you could cast some elements to include with fabricated sheet. I'd not go anywhere near steel.

It may be easier to use running or sheeting water instead of jets. Perhaps upper and lower pools.

I'd also be making a model early on so as to allow time for plenty of changes.

Congrats Sam.

[PeterG]

Hi Sam

Good luck with the water feature. I think there is a huge demand for this sort of thing (justified or not) if you can get it right.

I suggest you have a look at the Oase web site. They are the bees knees in decorative water movement. http://www.oase-pumpen.com

If you can find a local supplier, they will probably give you detailed free advice if you look like being a valuable future customer.

Peter

PS...I strongly recommend that you dont cut corners on the filtration side of things. There is nothing worse than high maintenance waterworks. It is easy to keep the system clean if your customers are prepared to pay for the gear.

[warren01]

Hi Sam,
Venturing out to do fountains is something that requires a lot of research. I have a couple proposals in the works, which are being finalized by the contractors doing the foundations. Darn contractors (electrical, plumbers, cement work) for the foundations want as much as the fountains. For the fountain part, contact some of the fountain companies (not the landscape plastic pond people) on the web. I am not on my home computer and do not have the links available. There are so many options available that it will really blow you away. The fountain companies can provide you all the literature and even videos to share with the client. It is unbelievable of how many different ways that you can spray water. You also have to look at lighting and incorporate in the design.
One of the main factors of fountains turning to planters is because of poor design. From the filtering system to proper pump design, but what has to be pushed to the client is that the fountain needs a ready supply of water. The fountains must be hard plumbed to a water supply and uses an automatic fill system. Think about the float and fill in the toilet. Most people end up letting their fountains go dry, just forgot to fill or whatever and the water evaporates before they realize.
As far as material stick with either copper or bronze. Just remember that the metal will get very warm from the sun, especially darker patinas.
warren

[oddist]

Sam,

Why not just do a piece in steel, play with the water, then if approved, go have it copied and cast in bronze?

If you do it on a small scale, it can be enlarged. It costs money to do this but it's passed on to the client.

Just make sure you are paid for the original maquette, whether they go for it or not.

oddist (www.torchandpalette.com)

[EJB]

Yes, one of the main drawbacks to mixing materials, metals in particular, is because of electrolytic action. I'm no science major but the general concept is that elements in metal are prone to migrate, especially when in contact with disimilar metals and particularly when emersed in solution. Add to the mix elements of salt or other chemicals and you have the recipe for holes in your boat hull my friend. This is why metal hulled boats have ingots of Zinc attatched to them. The zinc in this case becomes the "sacrificial metal", meaning that it is usually lowest man on the totem pole in the heirarchy of metals (refer to your periodic table of elements). As in life, those of the lowest class are kindly asked to forfeit their ions and agree to be voted off the island thereby saving the more important metals to maintain hull integrity and you are safe to sail off to your next fountain making adventure.

This is not to say that you can not safely mix metals or other materials, it's just that you should be prepared for the results (good or bad) of your creativity. Also bear in mind that the metals used in your plumbing and water pump will usually contain brass, bronze or copper. Not really a big deal unless your white marble column starts to develop green streaks which cannot be removed. If your contractor/handyman/high school drop-out desides to plumb the waterworks with galvanized steel pipe, then it is simply a matter of time before the beautiful ribbons of rusty-brown water cascade wistfully over your creation. You get the picture.

For ease of maintenance and corrosion resistance my favorite choice for plumbing is PVC. Copper is fine if your not going to use a lot of chlorine or acid for cleaning and water treatment. Stainless is best if the Lottery gods have smiled upon you. Avoid rubber or vinyl tubing as much as possible. I could go on and on but I think my Cheesy Mac is ready. Good Luck!

[sculptorsam]

Thanks for the specific info, EJB. That combined with the wonderful link from Peter for the fountain company has me feeling pretty optimistic. Now I'm just here waiting for all my free literature to arrive in the mail.

[EJB]

One more thing to consider when making your material choices with regard to long term maintenance is mineral deposition. Anytime water evaporates, residual minerals remain. The make up of these minerals can vary greatly with the region and water source but usually are some combination of calcium, salt, iron and the like. This is relevant to the fountain maker because any water in contact with the surface of your sculptural element WILL eventually leave mineral deposits. To what degree and in what time frame will depend upon the surface material, the smooth vs. textured qualities and the degree of exposure to water and air.

Any attempt to maintain a perfect bronze Botero-like patina is an exercise in futility. Between the water splash or flow over the bronze any patina will be quickly compromised. THERE IS NO MAGIC COATING TO STOP THIS. Even when the sculpture is seperate from the water element, count on getting some splash which will leave water spots and mineral deposits. Clear coatings and wax can help in this case but need to be vigilantly maintained. When it comes time to clean off mineral deposits your are guaranteed to remove the patina in the process. Even with other materials like stone or stainless steel, minerals will deposit on the surface. The simple method of dealing with this is through the use of acid. One just needs to know if the use of acid will affect the sculpture or any of it's components. Chlorine is often used to keep the black-green gooey algae in check. Use of chlorine will affect the surface coloration of bronze as well as react with any copper alloy plumbing

[sculptorsam]

I guess I'd have to see some examples, but I generally like anything that gives an aged, varied look to a work. I don't even really mind the bird crap on my cor-ten sculptures. But I understand everyone does not think the same way. Could some of these effects be described as desirable do you think, in the sense of adding complexity to the surface? Someone paying good money for a work probably wants it looking like it did when they bought it. It's good to address these concerns early on. For stainless, maybe once-a-year intense scrubbing would be good? The fountain will only be active in the non-freezing months, which up here is around 4-5 or so.

After receiving another message from the couple, I think we're leaning in the direction of this for the work (fingers crossed that we're communicating well). Perhaps around 10 feet. Either stainless or bronze plate. (The third pic is a completed sculpture in this style in Cor-ten steel, 3/16" plate.) Water to spray onto or perhaps cascade over or perhaps both. I think it could be managable if kept simple. Any thoughts?

[anne (bxl)]

Interresting thread! working with water must be an exciting challenge!
Sam, based on your pictures, I imagine the two hands "receiving" water from a spray source jumping out of the ground somewhere.

[oddist]

Wow, I like those hands! Veeery expressive.

Just a thought here though, look out for pockets where water can collect, stagnate, and breed mosquitos.

Also, there is a liquid called Fontec that is for treatment of fountain water to prevent algae growth. I do not know its effect on surrounding materials though. If someone out there does..I'd like to know too.

oddist (www.torchandpalette.com)

[sculptorsam]

Good point about the stagnation, oddist. When I made the hands in cor-ten, I had to create a drainage system to keep the steel from deteriorating. By "drainage system" I just mean a network of holes. For these hands, I could keep a couple main pockets sealed to create a pooling/cascading effect but build in drainage for all auxialry places where water may pool. Instead of relying on water from the spray to pool and cascade, I'd probably build some plumbing into the works to carry water up. My thinking was that with water jets around the bottom and water cascading from the palms, it would create the effect of the hands constantly "emerging" from the water.

[fritchie]

Sam - I tend to like varied (and varying) texture or color myself, but you definitely need a read from the people commissioning the work. As people have said, even stainless probably will accumulate salt deposits over time. Stainless or any other material probably will need a good regular cleaning, but perhaps only annually in your climate. As the water would be shut down each winter, that would simplify annual maintenance.

I really like the hands.

[wasabi]

Has anybody considered an oil-based fountain that would continually coat the metal? I have thought about designing a smaller indoor sculpture using this concept as both something different and a possible way to build a fountain out of unfinished mild steel. I envision a slower flow than water, less spray and more wave action. Almost like a lava lamp without the confines of a container. I would even like to capture the "glob" effect like a lava lamp where a secondary thicker substance stays together and periodically is pumped and flows across the sculpture. I see one challenge as ensuring total metal immersion, as well as continuous use, to prevent oxidation and coloring of the oil.

[oddist]

Wasabi,

Interesting idea. (Calder did a mercury fountain which I wouldn't suggest nowadays)

I see the problem with an open oil reservoir as a safety issue; fire, contamination, and odor.

There might be some other products out there that could produce the results you are looking for.

Keep in mind though, pumping thick fluids is much harder than pumping water.

I'm not the final answer though, try here (http://science.howstuffworks.com/question36.htm) for how a lava lamp works.

Good luck.

[sculptor]

long ago
I saw an oil based "fountain"........I don't remember who did it--but seem to remember a pumping into a high pool and the overflow was guided by wires down which the beaded oil flowed--as well as down over the main structure--it had lights which lit the descending oil droplets and turned them into miniature rainbow prism-globs

this was probably back in the early 70's and was of moderate size----maybe 10 ft at most

rod

[oddist]

Rod,

Yes, yes, yes....I remember that....wasn't that the 60's?

Or did I miss those years too.

Las Vegas..Must have been in Las Vegas.

[fritchie]

Oddist Re: Water Fountain

Wasabi,

Interesting idea. (Calder did a mercury fountain which I wouldn't suggest nowadays.)

The earliest (?) Chinese emperor supposedly had a "lake" of mercury surrounding his official residence, traces of which were present when it was excavated a couple of decades ago. Also not to be recommended today, but it must have been impressive.

[Jam]

Sam,

I would love to chat with you on your water fountain ventrure. I have been contemplating how to create a small indoor fountain using stainless and silicon bronze.

This issue of corrosion also ties into some other prices I am working on where water is not involved but I will want a rusted steel with welded on top of it.

I you or anyone else has found any new information or have experience to share please let me know.

Jam

[shona]

i would look into "powder coating" with powder coating you could be garanteed that nothing will change after powder coating has been done, not even a hammer will not chip the coat off and whatever you seal will be protcted from rust growth and or moisture.
this method is used on restoration of classic cars and you can get clear powder coat so you can still save the rust color under the coat.
i had the bottom of my 1969 ford torino powder coated and it still looks brand spankin new three years later.
or just use no rusting metals.
in powder coating they apply the paint in powder form then the bake the hell out of it and it's perminant protection under every condition.
for the gushing fountain head i'd look for an adjustable hose pipe tip that can be set to spray and to jet, then drill a hole on the top of the fountain big enough to conceal the adjustable hose tip from veiw that way you can use a tool (needle nose ) to set the jet where you want it.
feed the hose pipe from under the fountain through to the top all the way out then attach the adjustable hose tip then pull back the hose pipe slack from under till you adjustable hose tip sits concealed in the hole at top then glue it in place leaving the adjustable part free to readjust in the future. i have made 2 massive (8-9 feet) (stone fountains from basalt, one had a ball on the top that rolled with just alittle bit of water pressure and the other one just dripped water down the rock, the dripping one is now standing in the garden of news anchor Diane Sawyer.

[iron ant]

I have a powdercoated sculpture that has not rusted and it has been in the elements for fourteen years,but I would not build a fountain that way.My buddy took a galvinized cow water trough,5' wide,and had a rubber coating sprayed out of it.He made a high tech tub out of it.Just a food for thought....

[Jam]

Thanks for the tips.
I will keep you posted on my water ventures.
Jam