Danish cartoon

[sculptor]

Can anyone post the cartoon of the prophet of terror?

"news" media hyping lotsa screamers without showing the cartood about which, they seem to be screaming.

reminds me of Janet Jackson's left nipple (which I also didn't see) but heard reactions to many many many, ad infinitum, times

sculpton

[Merlion]

I would not post these cartoons, as Muslims consider them as very offensive and blaspermous. One cartoon shows their Prophet Muhammed as a terrrost with a bomb with fuse in the turban on his head. The anger is for real. Buildings have been torched and people have been killed.

On the other hand, one can dig out these pictures by Google or other internet search engines. Here is one article (http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48674) with quite a few of these cartoons.

[sculptor]

I used to have a dream wherein, i was on a spit of land between 2 pools.
I tried to create a ripple in one pool by tossing in a pebble.
no effect
so I picked up a rock and threw it in
no effect so i found a bigger rock(40 pounder) and heaved it in
no effect
so I went and found a boulder and after valiant struggles managed to pick it up and heave it in
no effect

pondering the imponderable (yhwh?)

i accidentally nudged a very small pebble into the other pool
the ripples remagnified themselves ever more violently untill
the pool was shattered

and
I had thought that the dream was about youthfull passions and love.

that being said:
The reaction seems to far outweigh the action

[fused]

I think the reaction to the cartoon is justified and yet the violent actions (which cannot be justified) won't disprove what some people may perceive as a hint of truth in the bomb image.

Some wonder if this outrage is politically motivated (http://freedomforegyptians.blogspot.com/2006/02/cartoons-were-published-five-months.html) and not just a response based on faith.

[imike]

I find it ridiculous that it was published by the media itself. As a media, they should be mindful and should not have published in the first place. If they have not done that, it would not have caused so many problems and innocent people are killed because of this...

[HappySculpting]

Yes, the media shouldn't have published it out of respect for their beliefs. It's too bad, though, that their is so much hypocrisy. Didn't they burn the American flag in response?

I think that the Muslims should remember that newspapers have made fun of Christ and depicted sacriligious things many a time. It would be nice if they only tried to control the actions of their own people in not depicting anything offensive about Muhammed. When you try and control the whole world and say everyone has to act as you want them to is when we'll have violence to make them do what you want. Not good.

[daaub]

The proponents of free speech should not back down one inch to those who use violence as a means to control society.

[sculptor]

The proponents of free speech should not back down one inch to those who use violence as a means to control society.

Well said!
Well said indeed.

and

If our (u.s.) media are to be trusted,
their bottom line was that 2 radical clerics actually created a modified version of the cartoons which were much more offensive, then, using them, traveled around creating strife and anti western and european violence.

assuming that this version of the story is close to an objective reality, then squashing the story only plays into the hands of the perpetrators of violence

again,
censorship is inherently evil
and serves no purpose greater than deceit

[RCFA-Raven]

The proponents of free speech should not back down one inch to those who use violence as a means to control society.


Political correctness has just went why too far especially in the US. We tend to over conpensate for the ratical groups while alowing the submissive ones to be trampled.

[JamesW]

Political correctness has just went why too far especially in the US. We tend to over conpensate for the ratical groups while alowing the submissive ones to be trampled.
What a load of non-sense....
Political correctness as it has become labelled means that you can't vilify people on the grounds of race, religion, gender, age etc
Whats wrong with that? Do you think its OK to say that a particular race or gender all have a 'bad' or negative characteristic?
Do you think that its OK to say that all people from the US are dumbf**ks like you? Of course not. Thats political correctness.
How dare you hide your hatred behind free speech...free speech not only provides us with rights but also responsibilities.
The cartoons I have seen are extremely insulting & inflammatory....gee good timing guys.... I can assure you if Jesus was portrayed as a knife wielding assassin there are plenty of countries where there would be rioting in the streets..& flag burning
And another thing........
definition of 'conpensate' ? maybe get a dictionary or try spell check.....
and 'ratical groups' - would that be some sort of support group for rodents ?
and a 'submissive group' - don't tell me, that would be white , middle class, middle aged men - right?
Yeah right
James

[HappySculpting]

I can assure you if Jesus was portrayed as a knife wielding assassin there are plenty of countries where there would be rioting in the streets..& flag burning

There probably have been a few of these cartoons. Any Christian that would act up violently isn't a Christian. Just as the Muslims say that they aren't acting as Muslims should by being violent. A Christian additude would be to pray that these unloving cartoonist would change their ways. You can't control people but try to. You can try and influence them by love.

Violence is a personal choice and each person bears their responsibility for how they respond to hatred as displayed by the hateful cartoons.

[RCFA-Raven]

How dare you hide your hatred behind free speechDearest James,

Very presumptious of you. However, I am not as axpressive as I should be from time to time.

I personally don't hate any group of people and don't affiliate myself with any such group that HATES certain religions, races, or other groups of people except for child pornography. I personally find certain art/comedy distasteful, however I think people have the right to choose for themselves.

As far as Muslims go, If the women and men in this religion are happy being in it or living the life they lead, more power to them. But from seeing the people's crys on tv, I don't think they've been a happy people for some time. I myself am happy to have been able to make a choice because I am sure you would have watched a clip of my execution by now or I would be mentally handicaped by the blows to my head. Either way, I would not be allowed to have made the choice to post to this board or not.

And as far as submissive groups go you, I consider the dearest friend who I ever had in this group. She was brutally murdered a few years back and I have never even hated her killer--don't wish to see his face again but don't have him. Only feelings that I had toward him was being hurt by his action and feel some pitty for him because he will have to live with what he did.



While I think certain things should be ban so that other's rights are preserved, if we put a ban on everything that people find distasteful & unpleasant than what is left?

(PS I find the name you called me to be very distaistful, but that didn't stop you from saying it, did it? You brought yourself right down to the level you were accusing me & the cartoonists of being in, didn't it? But right to my point, that was your CHOICE.)

[G. Murdoch]

Several weeks ago, the NATIONAL POST (A daily Canadian broadsheet) published an essay written by the editor of the Danish newspaper which had published the cartoons originally. He told the story of why they had the cartoons commissioned, and why they were published, and his opinion of the ensuing controversy. It is worth a read. To paraphrase:

An author of childrens books wanted to illustrate his manuscript, but was unable to find anyone willing to depict the prophet due to dogmatic restrictions. The newspaper learned of this, and asked many cartoonists to submit cartoons of the prophet. Most declined to do so. Of the dozen or so that participated, several were satirical about the newspapers request, several were satirical about the restrictions on depicting the prophet, and several were satirical about the prophet, Islamic fundamentalism, and terrorism.

Nothing much happened for months. A Danish Imam added and altered the cartoons to make them much more insulting and inflammatory than the originals. He then took these cartoons on a tour of the Middle East with the express intent to foment outrage. It worked.

Part of the editor's explanation for his decision to publish the originals was his faith in the vast moderate majority of Muslims in the Netherlands. As a means of saying "You are a part of our society. We satirise everything."

Contrary to what James has written, whenever Christian icons are debased (remember the crucifix in urine?), people are certainly upset, but flags are not burned, people do not riot or murder in response.

I spent several months in Morrocco in '93, had a wonderful time. While I was there I was careful to be observant and respectful of local customs. During the fast of Ramadan, I did not eat, drink, or smoke in public from sunrise to sunset etc...This I consider to be common courtesy and common sense. However, in Canada, while many Muslims observe the fast of Ramadan, the rest of the Canadian population is not expected to do so.

In the modern secular West, political and religious satire is part of the custom. While some of it is certainly in poor taste, it is a part of life. Accept it as part of the price of admission to living in a free and open society.

Graham

[JamesW]

Hi Tamara
While I agree with what you're saying - can you provide evidence of a cartoon that personifies Jesus as a murdering terrorist ? Don't get me wrong, I do not support violence. There are plenty of countries where the depiction of Christ in a similar manner would provoke a similar violent response is all I'm saying.
Regards
James

[Blacksun]

I have looked at the cartoons in question and found them neither funny nor insulting / demeaning. The reaction of the muslim world to these stupid cartoons demonstrates the growing danger they pose to the civilized world. There will be a point that PC tolerance of inappropriate human behavior (such as demonstrated in the French riots, the ongoing terrorist attacks in Iraq, and the worldwide riots over the "prophet" cartoons) will end. This "clash of cultures" will end in an all out worldwide war. The so-called "Moderate" or "Peaceful" muslims had better start standing up and actively joining forces with those that oppose Violent Muslim extremists. :)

[HappySculpting]

While I agree with what you're saying - can you provide evidence of a cartoon that personifies Jesus as a murdering terrorist ? Don't get me wrong, I do not support violence. There are plenty of countries where the depiction of Christ in a similar manner would provoke a similar violent response is all I'm saying.


It could promote violence with some people if there was such a cartoon. But those people wouldn't be true Christians. Are the deaths of people the fault of the cartoon or the person rioting? Don't really know the answer for sure but it seems to me that anyone who acts up that way isn't living up to their beliefs.

There are always going to be people who write things that are wrong and offensive, to kill because of it, that's the bigger wrong and radical. We don't need radicalism. We don't need hate. We need love to smooth over the badness of other people and hope they'll change.

To have a belief system that causes you to want to kill others if your God is blasphemed is radical.

[JamesW]

Dearest James,

Very presumptious of you. However, I am not as axpressive as I should be from time to time.

I personally don't hate any group of people and don't affiliate myself with any such group that HATES certain religions, races, or other groups of people except for child pornography. I personally find certain art/comedy distasteful, however I think people have the right to choose for themselves.

As far as Muslims go, If the women and men in this religion are happy being in it or living the life they lead, more power to them. But from seeing the people's crys on tv, I don't think they've been a happy people for some time. I myself am happy to have been able to make a choice because I am sure you would have watched a clip of my execution by now or I would be mentally handicaped by the blows to my head. Either way, I would not be allowed to have made the choice to post to this board or not.

And as far as submissive groups go you, I consider the dearest friend who I ever had in this group. She was brutally murdered a few years back and I have never even hated her killer--don't wish to see his face again but don't have him. Only feelings that I had toward him was being hurt by his action and feel some pitty for him because he will have to live with what he did.



While I think certain things should be ban so that other's rights are preserved, if we put a ban on everything that people find distasteful & unpleasant than what is left?

(PS I find the name you called me to be very distaistful, but that didn't stop you from saying it, did it? You brought yourself right down to the level you were accusing me & the cartoonists of being in, didn't it? But right to my point, that was your CHOICE.)
Dear 'Raven'
How can you say that Muslims are unhappy because 'from seeing the peoples crys on TV, I don't think that they've been a happy people for a long time' ?
It is exactly those kind of inaccurate generalisations that portray certain groups in a negative light that 'political correctness' opposes. Are you unaware that Muslims live all over the world and are as many & varied as any other group?
And talk about 'presumptious' you then go on to say that if you were a Muslim you would not have been allowed to post on this board and would have been executed ! What a bigotted ignorant attitude you display here... how can you tell whether the people that post on this board are Muslim or not? Can you tell if I am Muslim?
You then use the sad loss of your friend (what a terrible thing to go through - truly my heart goes out to you) as an example of how 'political correctness' allows certain groups to be trampled on. I'm sorry but I don't understand what your saying here...could you maybe list the types of people that you think 'political correctness' allows to be trampled so that I can understand what you are trying to say here?
And yes the name a called you was distasteful - it was analogy, an example of what becomes OK if we throw so-called 'political correctness' out the window.
I don't think we should ban every thing that someone might find distasteful however if we create an image that is intentionally insulting & derogatory (particularly of someones religion) I don't think we should find a negative response surprising.
I wonder what would happen if the New York Times published a satirical cartoon of Jesus portrayed as a marauding marine raping a pillaging the peaceful people of Iraq?
I guess we all know the answer to that one.
James

[HappySculpting]

I wonder what would happen if the New York Times published a satirical cartoon of Jesus portrayed as a marauding marine raping a pillaging the peaceful people of Iraq?
I guess we all know the answer to that one.

Well, I go to bible meetings 3 times a week and consider myself a strong Christian. So I guess I'd be the one offended by such a cartoon. However, offended I would be, violent I would not. There isn't room in the Christian way of life to be violent.

I don't know much about Muslim beliefs but I'm curious as to why so many take to violence. What is it in their beliefs that allows them to think it's o.k. to be violent? I do agree that the non violent Muslims need to stand up and show how there beliefs don't condone what's happened.

[JamesW]

A couple of last comments....

Lets not forget that it was a small minority of Muslims who reacted to theses cartoons in a violent way.

All religions have their fundamentalist/radical elements.

I wish that the other threads that discuss sculpture were as active as this one !

Peace
James

[HappySculpting]

Yes, were more fired up about this than we are about sculpting. Now if there was a cartoon slamming sculpting, that's when I'd take to the streets and perform horrible acts! Just kidding! :cool:

[sculptor]

...the NATIONAL POST ... published an essay written by the editor of the Danish newspaper which had published the cartoons originally. ... . A Danish Imam added and altered the cartoons to make them much more insulting and inflammatory than the originals. He then took these cartoons on a tour of the Middle East with the express intent to foment outrage. It worked.
...Accept it as part of the price of admission to living in a free and open society.

Graham

YES---that's the cartoon I wanted to see when I opened this conversation---

bye the bye---the Danish Iman was the real culpret here, not only did he wish to foment violence, but he did so by depicting the profit--and I would assume, depicting the profit in a less than complimentary manner.(which is a violation of his claimed religion)hypocrit(sp?)

As I see it, the church holds 2 values
1) is community
2) voiced best by Soren Kierkagard places an infinite distance between our ability and that of GOD-which makes us all more or less equal, and thereby brothers(and sisters) in our struggles in this world

So we may yell and scream at and insult each other, but we're still all in this together

one thought about political correctness--in 1939 in Germany, you couldn't get any more politically correct than by being a national socialist

times change
may we all get beyond silly phrases like political correctness, and find and appreciate the depths of each others true souls.

rod
sculptor (http://www.arteutile.net/patterson/patterson.htm)

thanx for the post Graham

[RCFA-Raven]

Yes, were more fired up about this than we are about sculpting. Now if there was a cartoon slamming sculpting, that's when I'd take to the streets and perform horrible acts! Just kidding! :cool:
Yes, I've been in a slump for a couple of weeks! Perhaps I can direct this new energy into my sculpting! lol!

[RCFA-Raven]

I said that, "I don't THINK they've been a happy people for some time" Right or wrong it my OPINION. I think people are interesting because of their difference of opinion.

I don't know if you are a Muslim or not. If you make me choose, based on your words, I will say I don't believe you are by birth based on my dealings with Muslim men I know in my community.

Anyway, I accept your apology. Oviously this is an emotional issue you have and I would be interested in hearing more about why you feel the way you do.

Warmest Wishes,

Raven

PS(IF there were a Muslim man that would have me as his wife and wouldn't bash my head in, I would have to admit that I would have to feel sorry for him. I am a bit mouthy and opinionated in public and surely would embarrass the heck out of him! As a matter of fact I think my American husband would like to do that from time to time, :D but he is truely a wonderful and understanding man. IF YA HAVEN'T FIGURED IT OUT BY NOW I WOULD RATHER MAKE FUN OF MYSELF THEN SOMEONE ELSE.)

[G. Murdoch]

I find it interesting that James continues to insist that if Jesus were portrayed as a terrorist, there would ensue violent outrage in plenty of countries. This statement is just flat out wrong. Jesus has been portrayed in far more demeaning and derogatory manner than any of the images published in JYLLANDS POSTEN, and riots haven't happened.

Of course followers of Jesus have had thier day in the sun as violent oppressors and murderers of people who did not agree with them (anyone remember the inquisition?).

Both the extreme response of radical Muslims over the cartoons, and the dark history of the Catholic church, are examples of people marching under the legitimising banner of God whilst pursuing economic and political agendas.

Graham

[JamesW]

OK Graham
A dare....
Walk through Italy, Some Baltic countries, Northern Ireland, some Latin American countries, etc with a derogatory image of Jesus held above your head & see how you go...
Do you really believe the response would be considered or moderate ?
C'mon you could probably try it closer to home....
Let me know how you go...
James

[G. Murdoch]

James,

I agree with you that if I were foolish enough to act on your dare, I would likely be in grave physical danger. However, if I were a cartoonist who slandered Jesus in a newspaper, I doubt very much that I would encounter the same danger.

Still trying to get enough sculpture together to afford a trip your way, currently doing the apprentice thing, might be a while yet. My folks just got back from a month in Australia, New Zealand, and Tazmania. Absolutely loved it.

Graham

[JamesW]

Dear Raven
Let me quote you " If there was a Muslim man that would have me as his wife and wouldn't bash my head in, I would have to admit that I feel sorry for him."

Would be really interested to hear from those that support this statement as there seems to be a core group of supporters of this kind of shite.....

Lets consider the statement " If there was a Christian (or lets say US) man that would have me as his wife and wouldn't bash my head in, I would have to admit that I feel sorry for him"

And hey Raven, if you are the kind of person that feels sorry for their partner because they don't bash your head in, you perhaps might want to consider what that says about you. The US is littered with self help groups for people with those kind of psychological problems.

To be honest - I am shocked & dismayed at some of the attitudes on this thread.
James

[Merlion]

I am from a country, Singapore, and a part of the world, Asia, that is multi-racial and multi-religious. People from different races and religions are living next door to each other, rubbing shoulders on the streets. We are surrounded by large groups of other races and religions.

Over here, we had seen and are still seeing racial/religious conflicts, riots and mass killings. For us, these are not far away events on radio and TV. We know they can be deadly and for real, around us.

Thus in Singapore we are very aware of the crucial need to be sensitive to, and respect the customs, values, beliefs of other people.

Now, it is a fact that the whole world is multi-racial and multi-religious.

Of course in many parts of the world, the white world, there had not been much need for such sensitivity and respect. For people there, life has gone on like this for many generations. They are in a way insulated from such trauma.

Many blessed countries in these parts of the world, namely the US and some W Europe countries, have been in control globally with more money, power and arms than others. They can afford to annoy and sometimes bully people from other races and religions.

As these can happen over centuries without much recrimination, soon they do not realise the harm that have been done to inter-racial and inter-religious relationship They are generally not aware of the hatred generated and simmering in the ground.

The big problem in this respect is that now our political world and our economic world is getting increasingly connected and globalised. The privilege of living in our insulated little world is disappearing fast, compared with say 30 years, or just 10 years ago in 1996.

The title of this tread refers to some satirical cartoons considered blasphemous to the Islam religion. They were published in a newspaper in Denmark, a country well know to be liberal and permissive.

If this were to happen years ago, not much ripple would be generated. But this occured after repeated events in many parts of the world, especially the Middle East, which the Muslim communities felt are an afront, unjust, double-standard, attack, downtrodden to them.

Some of them vent their anger out on the street. Many others do not do it, but are sympathic. Some with deep hatred crossed the line, and take up arms including bombs, and including the ultimate 'sacrifice' of suicide in vengence.

Apparently many ordinary people from the insulated confortable parts of the world are puzzled. They just could not understand what is this big fuss from the Muslims. Some with stong views still hang on to some ideals of free speech above all else.

I think we all have to get real. Find out what is happening around the world, not just in our parts of our comfortable world. Open our eyes. We are in a real world.

[Jay Long]

people drew cartoons, people died, people debated, what A supreme race of beings we are! I have my opinion and you have yours, Yea you have the right to express yourself, but it isnt a law that you have too. Here is my opinion for what it is worth. Men will continue to kill each other, peoples opinions and beliefs will be at the root of it, and it will never end. Tomorrow something else will draw are interest........Here is a thought, What good is bad news? If we stopped reading the newspaper, stopped watching the local news channels, would our world fall apart? What can you really do about any of this stuff? We all have are own measure of troubles and problems to deal with in this life, You can't change people, but you can change yourself. Jay

[RCFA-Raven]

Very thoughtful statement Jay. Makes one think.

[JamesW]

Merlion
Well put !
James

[sculptor]

[QUOTE=Merlion]
...
The title of this tread refers to some satirical cartoons considered blasphemous to the Islam religion. They were published in a newspaper in Denmark, a country well know to be liberal and permissive.
QUOTE]

Merlion:
the unrest-riots-violence were apparantly caused by.."A Danish Imam added and altered the cartoons to make them much more insulting and inflammatory than the originals. He then took these cartoons on a tour of the Middle East with the express intent to foment outrage. It worked."

These "modified cartoons" are what I was hoping to have posted such that we might compare them to the originals.

Some days, it seems that some people are wandering around just hoping that they can find something which they can claim is offensive, and then justify bad behavour by claiming outrage. And some rabble rousing conmen(read our aformentioned Iman(s))are more than wiling to oblige for their own purposes.

censorship of the "potentially offensive material"
or any "potentially offensive material"
is a slippery slope that leads to book burning and a return to the dark ages,
where does it stop?
if I find your words offensive should you be forced into silence?
if I find your face offensive should you be forced to wear a mask?
if I find your height offensive should you be forced to kneel?
If I find your gait offensive should you be forced to crawl?

If we hide our imaginations and cower in our dungeons hoping to avoid offending people who really want to be offended are we helping them?

If we see the offending modifications of the cartoons and honestly critique them and the changes from the originals, we deny the provocator Iman(s) the opportunity to work their evil covertly and bring the whole into the light.

all censorship is inherently evil
even self imposed censorship

there are sins of omission as well as sins of commission
all that evil needs to thrive is for good men to do nothing

rod
p.s.
so, no links to the modified cartoons?
gee darn

how about a link to a picture of Janet Jackson's exposed nipple?

[G. Murdoch]

The concept of free speech is irrelevant if all I intend to say is "Good morning. How's the weather? Have a nice day." etc...

The concept of free speech only has value and meaning if I am free to say "The government is corrupt. The president is a dangerous fool. Your God is crazy." etc...

Graham

[iron ant]

I recond they are going to have to reword that old saying"sticks,and stones will break my bones,but words/cartoons will never hurt me."I thought this was a 3-d site,ya the certoons are the flavor of the week in the media,but the whole problem goes back way before these stupid cartoons,just study a little history....IA

[JasonGillespie]

Has anyone questioned why there is any debate at all about the validity of the reactions to this cartoon? Regardless of perceived or intended slurs on the part of whomever....violent riots, killing,....these are unacceptable reactions. Flying planes into buildings is an unacceptable reaction. Anarchy, destruction, and murder have no justification. They are and will always be unacceptable reactions. Period. Whether or not the cartoons should have been shown is irrelevant.....anyone one trying to justify violence as a means of expression is wrong. When someone belongs to a religion that promotes peace and condemns violent acts in its sacred text acts in this way he/she is automatically suspect. Either the people are liars...or the religion is flawed...take your pick. A quick reading of the text in question will clarify which is the case. The problem is almost always the people. Just because I say I believe in something isn't proof...I will prove it by my actions. I think that we have seen what these people really believe in. That there is any other reaction than outright condemnation of such behavior shows a great disconnect on the part of some.

And don't be fooled that this is only a small minority that is behaving/believing this way. If those Muslims who were offended are willing to be violent when they are supposed to be practicing a religion of peace...don't be misled into thinking they aren't possibly in support of those muslims/terrorists who then are taking innocent lives as retribution for grievances...real or imagined through organized terrorism. Look at the studies on global terrorism and see the sobering truth.....there is a very large number of people that feel this way and unfortunately they do think that this sort of behavior is a justifiable expression of displeasure...and will continue to act accordingly until we wake from the slumber of ignorance and take action.

An interesting read is the book Who Becomes a Terrorist and Why. It is a 1999 report from the government.

[JamesW]

I couldn't agree more !
Killing is wrong, who could possibly support the murder of innocent women & children, pre-emptive strikes, ignoring the will of the international community.. oh hang on a minute thats George Bush - a born again Christian no less ! So following your logic ...either the people are liars ....or the religion is flawed.....
I'm really sick of this forum degenerating into a slur on all muslims & their religion..
This has nothing to do with sculpture/3D art
Get back to work
James

[JasonGillespie]

James,
I'm not sure if that parting shot about slurs towards Muslims was aimed at my post, but in the interest of pointing out the obvious.....the biggest problem out there in terms of global terrorism......is Muslim fundamentalist terrorists. That is not a slur...it is a fact. In a listing of 60 international terrorist groups...24 were Islamic Fundamentalist groups. That is almost half. I have no problem with peaceful Muslims or peaceful anybody, but let's not deny the truth.

Then again, maybe you are sick of the truth. We have a problem and it isn't some creation of the media or any government agency. Though we all wish it would go away it isn't going to just up and solve itself. Instead of making misguided, sarcastic comments about the present US administration (which I only bring up because it is the easiest, least constructive action one can take...during any president's/government's tenure) you might get yourself informed about what is actually going on in the world. A good start is http://www.ict.org.il/, http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/terror.htm, http://www.jihadwatch.org/, http://terrorismexperts.org/index.htm . Armed with that knowledge...who knows...you might do some good.

As to the fact that this thread has nothing to do with sculpture.....well...in a direct fashion it doesn't. But...as artists we are always involved in and ultimately some of the most profoundly powerful historians of what goes on in our world/time. Art has always documented the great events...horrible and wonderful. So again your point is off. If we can't take the time to consider the world around and reflect on it
(and possibly comment on it in our art), then how are we different from someone who makes shoes or cars for a living...are we just creators of things that look pretty, but have no value beyond our own time?

"To be honest - I am shocked & dismayed at some of the attitudes on this thread."

[Tandigon]

Lets face it. Muslims and Islam are inserperable. However Christians and the Christian way of life are seperable. In other words Christians are in a way, indifferent. Take Da Vinci Code as an example. Feeble protest at the most.

" Honey, did read that book?" " Yea, Dan is a damn good fiction writer. Almost believeable"

[sculptor]

... Armed with that knowledge...who knows...you might do some good. ...

"To be honest - I am shocked & dismayed at some of the attitudes on this thread."

Jason:
Somehow, I cannot conceive of anyhing that I could do as a midwest quasi-hermit sculptor that would have any positive effect on would be terrorists--------(no small part of me agreed with Kadafi when he declared that the usa were the true terrorist, with our warbirds and bombs)

to lump all followers of islam into one unified pidgeon-hole makes less sense than lumping all sculpture into one unified pidgeon-hole
I wouldn't even lump all of mine together as a unified entity---otherwise, Why do another one?

I do not pretend to understand violence, or the need which some people have to feel offended enough to perform such a radical act of self sacrifice as to become a suicide bomber--
---history is rife with such acts of self sacrifice, and if the actors in this drama were on our side, they are considered heroes---perspective really does matter

ergo my harping on the evils of censorship

I suspect that only by open uncensored dialogue can we hope to gain the perspective of "the other guy"
Open your mind, share your fears dreams loves and hates and hopes for the future----
Maybe, just maybe, we can free ourselves from the curse of the tower of babel and realize that our shared condition is greater than our differences
(That is my hope for the future.)

on a different note:
Tandigon:
funny, i didn't think of the U.A.E. as part of the third world.
And as/re anaplastologists, are you a prosthetics or a skin guy?
If the former, could you fill me in on some of the proceedures for the creation of prosthetic legs-------(my son Michael is in the peace corps, and has been trying to get a leg for one of his acquantainces in ecuador who lost a leg in an accident in the forest-so I thought, if all else fails, maybe i could use my skills to help out there. Mike says that this is not an uncomon occurance, and there is little or no help available in the oriente(east part of ecuador in the amazon basin)
so far, my guess is that if I take a cast of his stump, and another of his good leg, and then sculpt the missing one to match the remaining one, it should be a workable soultion---(harkening back to the leather harnesed peg leg of old)
(hinges for ankle and knee are a bit unclear in this concept--seems it would need some sort of spring mechanism to bring it back to standing straight as a default?) any help/knowledge here will be greatly appreciated

rod
sculptor (http://home.mindspring.com/~mandali/index.html)

[Blacksun]

ergo my harping on the evils of censorship

I suspect that only by open uncensored dialogue can we hope to gain the perspective of "the other guy"
Open your mind, share your fears dreams loves and hates and hopes for the future----
]


I couldn't agree more...an open uncensored dialogue is the only hope for a united humanity... It's just too bad that you won't find that here in this forum. :cool:

Someone felt offended by a previous comment of mine in this thread...probably one where I expressed my view of Islam and Terrorism and the inextricable link between the two....don't really remember, just know that one day my post wasn't there anymore, and, when queried, the moderator's comment was that some people found my comments racist. Me a racist....if you only knew how funny that is.... ;) So, good luck in your search for intelligent dialogue on political matters. Let me know if you find such a nirvana...

[justme]

Hi,
We watched a movie the other night that amazed me. It is a documentary about a stoneage tribe that went virtually without contact with the outside world until, I think, 1952. Violence was their way of life and constant death, almost to the brink of self extinction.
The title is "Beyond the Gates of Splendor".
I recommend it highly to all.
J

[sculptor]

re/
religous intolerance
long ago and far away, i belonged to a bible discussion group while in the u.s.army(there are no athiest in foxholes)
we would meet 2-3 times a week and openly discuss various passages in the bible with an 'anything goes' attitude
one dark day, our unitarian chaplan was transfered to another posting and was replaced by a tight assed overweight quasi-baptist-redneck-
He saw hisself as a totalitarian intermediary between us and god-
---kind of like an annoying oversized woman with a big hat blocking your view of the balet
after trying several different ways around his idiosyncracies, i was getting more exasperated minute by agonizing minute
so I said
"You seem to always refer to GOD as HE-may I assume that you see GOD as male versus female?
"Yes of course", he responded curtly
I then queried..."GOD is eternal, and Jesus was his only child?
to which he offered an affirmative response
-----"so", I said, "All of eternity and HE only had sex with one woman?"
to which he offered an affirmative response
"Well then" I said pensively "What did he do the rest of the time?...Beat off?"
His face turned beet red, he moved agressively towards me, and with spittle flying out of his mouth, he screamed
"Out of my church you sacriligeous son of a bitch!"

Intolerance is not now, nor has ever been endemic to only one religion

And, J:
stone age tribe-Highlands of the philipenes?
if so, I remember the first published data---naked man standing on one leg holding a large leaf overhead during a monsoon rain-
These the guys?
if so, the follow-on expedition(s?) depicted the 'tribe' as a splinter group who had fled to the highlands in the 19th century---and lamented that they were inexorably contaminated by the presence of the anthropologists.

[justme]

Nope, different stoneage group. This one is (was?) in Ecuador. Really, rent it, I'd love to hear what others think.
j

[Tandigon]

Hi Rod, you're right, the UAE is in the vicinity but not really part of the third world. The audience in that conference knew that I hail from India, which is part of the third world but is climbing out of the bowl if given half the chance by other crabs. Though India is a developing nation its population is a kind of handicap. My thesis at that presentation was that other options from futuristic technology may not be accessible to the majority of Indians in terms of costs. The option that I am providing will be more affordable.

Rod, I am a skin guy, what I make is akin to SFX and is meant to camouflage defects / deformities such as the loss of an eye, part of the face, hand, foot. The products look real.

About the amputee in Ecuador-Check out 'In Quito, the Hermano Miguel Foundation which is a nonprofit organization dedicated to assisting persons with disabilities and employs a team of multidisciplinary professionals.

And Rod, if you like I could send you more info on the way in which you could help those amputees in Ecuador in a real original way. Hats off to your son!

[sculptor]

...
About the amputee in Ecuador-Check out 'In Quito, the Hermano Miguel Foundation which is a nonprofit organization dedicated to assisting persons with disabilities and employs a team of multidisciplinary professionals.

And Rod, if you like I could send you more info on the way in which you could help those amputees in Ecuador in a real original way. Hats off to your son!

Daril:
Whats SFX?
and
I just got off the phone with michael..told him 'bout the Hermano Miguel Foundation -and currently have their on-line information called up, and am writing down their contact information

Please do "send ... more info on the way in which ... could help those amputees in Ecuador in a real original way"


snail mail:
Sculptor
2004 Blue Heron rd.n.e.
No. Liberty, Iowa 52317-9327, U.S.A.
email:
figuresculpture@hotmail.com

or post here if you like

[Tandigon]

SFX refers to special effects used to create illusions on the stage, a video or film. My clients are individuals who have been disfigured by an accident, disease or birth defect. Typically they will have a loss or an absence of an eye, ear, part of the face, a breast, a finger, or part of the hand or foot. The products I make are custom built and must look life like. Thus the client uses the product to camouflage a defect and create the illusion or normalcy. This product benefits the client psychosocially.


http://www.healthwrights.org/dwpapers.htm (this will link you to David Werner who is doing really original work in the area we are talking about)

http://www.jaipurfoot.org/ (this will link you to an extremely original approach to lower limb prosthetics)

Like myself (a qualified sculptor..circa 1969) who uses his skill for the disfigured, you too perhaps could look at the lower limb amputee from an original point of view and perhaps create a product that is indigenous and culturally appropriate to that part of Ecuador.

Michael will probably love the idea.

[2600degrees]

Fascinating dialog. Really appreciate all the opinions...and as I'm late in coming, I'll put in my 1 cents worth.

I really truly believe religion is just a convenient excuse for all this destructive behavior. Basically (I believe) this is a battle between freedom and intolerance, the haves versus the have-notes, human jealousy and greed and a clash of cultures. For all our sophistication and religious texts and pious positioning, I've come to the conclusion that most of the worlds ills are about power and the struggle to control. Come on...let's face it. Much of the Bible, Koran, etc. was written by people who were inextricably tied to the politics of the times and written to inspire, control and bend followers to the will of others. All done under the cover of Right and Wrong.

Freedom versus intolerance is the conflict where this struggle shows itself. Laws are what govern humanity, not religion.

I'm on the side of freedom. The freedom for people to be who they want to be, but not at the expense of others. We cannot climb to our potential as a human race by hurting each other to get there. (my gosh, even my own parish priest suggested that Catholics were chosen by God to ascend to heaven ahead of others...complete crap).

<I'm standing on my soapbox now...shouting to the masses...> Freedom, unfortunately, is constrained and suppressed by power hungry leaders(both in the U.S and abroad) willing to pervert people's fear of their own mortality (which is why we have religion the first place) to control and manipulate.

Oh...and I agree the reaction of some of our fellow human beings to the cartoons was inexcusable, but I would NEVER say "See what happens when you provoke people." to lay some blame on those who freely expressed their ideas. That justifies the violent behavior.

Have a nice day!

[Jasonik]

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/2424/notprophet1ro.jpg (http://www.mfa.org/collections/search_art.asp?recview=true&id=13928&coll_keywords=prophet&coll_accession=&coll_name=&coll_artist=&coll_place=&coll_medium=&coll_culture=&coll_classification=&coll_credit=&coll_provenance=&coll_location=&coll_has_images=&coll_on_view=&coll_sort=0&coll_sort_order=0&coll_package=0&coll_start=1)