Concerning Medallions

[Scout]

Landseer, I was wondering if the medallions you showed on another post were carved in a larger size first and then reproduced smaller. I have found in painting watercolors that shrunken down makes the quality better. Thanks, Scout

[Landseer]

Landseer, I was wondering if the medallions you showed on another post were carved in a larger size first and then reproduced smaller. I have found in painting watercolors that shrunken down makes the quality better. Thanks, ScoutI believe from what I read this is the case, made fairly larger and then reduced on machine, I don't know the processes involved but it's mentioned in various older books as well as the one on Augustus St Gaudens as medallions were his early specialty-job.
I believe the original large model, say 8" across is sculpted and then a machine is used to reduce the size to make dies, there's various WAYS to do all this- stamping/pressing, casting, but with these medallions the design was limited due to the die limitations- NO undercuts and the raised design height was limited to a certain amount and I forget what it said that was.
Larger patterns are easier to make than tiny ones, coins I believe are made the same way- large and then reduced to make dies.


http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b375/Randall2/st-bern.jpg

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b375/Randall2/st-bern-rev.jpg

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b375/Randall2/belgian-SD-medal.jpg

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b375/Randall2/m7.jpg

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b375/Randall2/maryanne1910.jpg

[fritchie]

Scout - Yes, Landseer is right. Probably all medallions, and also coins, are made in sizes as much as 3 - 5 times the finished size. I believe, in the case of U. S. coins in particular, a master die (for stamping) is made, and then tens or hundreds (??) of secondary dies are stamped from that one, to make the huge numbers of finished coins in circulation. I have read or seen on TV that proof (perfect) coins for collectors are double-stamped for extra sharpness.

[Scout]

Landseer, thanks for that. I particularly like the last one.

[Landseer]

Landseer, thanks for that. I particularly like the last one.Sure thing, this was done by Oscar Roty and is signed, the figure is the mythical French Maryann- similar to our Lady Liberty or "Uncle Sam" I gather. This medallion happened to be an award and is in a velvet lined presentation case. The inscription indicates it was given in 1910 to a Mme Pinaud Estelle, director ecole A Poitiers. The back indicates a national primary education instruction theme.

I think Maryann's profile is extremely well done, a very pretty face.


here's the back of this;

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b375/Randall2/maryanne1910reverse.jpg

[JasonGillespie]

Landseer,

Beautiful images...I'm envious. The medallion as an artform has become almost somewhat archaic it seems. The few that still practice this sort of work, that I've seen, often incise instead of modeling the forms....same for coinage. Glenna Goodacre's recent Sacagawea coin was a far cry from the work of past medallists.
St. Gaudens was supposed to have been trained in cameo carving which would, I imagine, account for the wonderful portrait reliefs he did. His coins were beautiful as well.

While doing some surfing I ran across this very atypical group of medals at the link below. Much nicer than the usual suspects nowadays. I particularly like the "Chernobyl" and the "Noe". The latter makes me think of Albrecht Durer.

http://www.artgallery-online.net/incirauskas/medals.html

[Landseer]

Landseer,

Beautiful images...I'm envious. The medallion as an artform has become almost somewhat archaic it seems. The few that still practice this sort of work, that I've seen, often incise instead of modeling the forms....same for coinage. Glenna Goodacre's recent Sacagawea coin was a far cry from the work of past medallists.
St. Gaudens was supposed to have been trained in cameo carving which would, I imagine, account for the wonderful portrait reliefs he did. His coins were beautiful as well.
Thanks Jason,
I have a small collection of a variety of them, no specific theme, I buy what I like. I think all of them came at various times from Ebay and were purchased from sellers in Belgium, France, Australia, Poland, the UK and a few others.
I think the most I paid for any was under $100 except the large 76 mm bronze dog show medallion made for the Irish Setter Club of America by a well known woman sculptor who also the first female designer of a US coin- Laura Gardin (Fraser) 1889-1966

According to the club, most of these medallions were only given for prestigious Best In Show awards- one winner per show, so there were not many of them made and recipients valued and kept THESE because they were the "purple heart" of the dog show world. As a result when this one came up on Ebay there were a lot of bids for it and fierce competition, but in the end I had the winning bid at $375 (I almost fainted) These are no longer made or awarded as they became too expensive!

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b375/Randall2/setter.jpg

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b375/Randall2/setter2.jpg

Sacagawea coin oh gawd yes, that was a horrible coin, leave it to the mint to come up with a portrait of a nearly unpronounceable by the general public name most never heard of. I saw alternate designs for this coin or maybe it was the Susan B Anthony coin, and one was similar to the above French Marianne portrait, I think a Liberty head with long flowing hair, it was a work of art, and then they came out with that sack a whatever portrait -which like that boring old crone of a face -Susan B Anthony on the other coin both failed.


Going back to Roty and his works, here is a few lines about him;

Oscar Roty (1846-1911). He studied painting as well as sculpture and was a pupil to Lecoq de Boisboudran, Dumont and Ponscarme. In 1872 Roty competed for the Prix de Rome for which he received a second prize award, from 1873 he exhibited at the Salon. Roty received the Grand Rrix de Rome in 1875 and spent three years in Italy before returning to Paris. In 1888 he was appointed professor and in 1897 President of the famous Academie des Beaux-Arts.

I also have an interesting medallion titled:
AESOPS FABLE.
SOCIETY OF MEDALISTS ISSUE #21, 1940. 72.8mm. Silver Plated bronze.by Edmond Ameteis.

This was from 1940 which as you know was an odd period post Art Deco, this medal is not only large but very thick and heavy as the designs on both sides are pretty highly raised. Ameteis' design is quite interesting, the dog portrait gives ALMOST a hint of an Art Deco style, very smooth but very well defined anatomy. His clever use of horizontal lines certainly gives the impression of water very effectively in a very minimal way, and the "mirror" image of the dog's head is believable as a reflection under the water. I havent found much on him maybe moved on to other things after this.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b375/Randall2/1940b.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b375/Randall2/1940a.jpg


Yes, St Gaudens was trained in cameo work and he did hundreds of them in his early days as a teen apprentice working for others, the book on him shows pictures of him at a machine making them.

[Scout]

I have been reading past posts, very impressive information. You guys and gals must spend a lot of time helping everyone. There is a lot about molds. I'll be delving into that soon. Right now I've been enjoying doing the slad relief. Should I avoid undercuts? Also should I let the clay stiffen before I start subtracting? I'm using stoneware, the grog is kind of difficult to deal with. Is there a better type clay to work with. I've used porcelain but that is like butter. I'll show you what I'm doing as soon as I can. Thanks again. Scout

Landseer, is your avatar your work?

[Landseer]

I have been reading past posts, very impressive information. You guys and gals must spend a lot of time helping everyone. There is a lot about molds. I'll be delving into that soon. Right now I've been enjoying doing the slad relief. Yeah we do, we take information and give information, we argue, we support, we love one another and we piss one another off, but we're all here because of sculpture and art.

As fa ras undercuts go, it depends on the model you are doing, I LOVE undercuts, lots of deep recesses and high relief, but depending on the finished material, design, overall size/weight you can't always get what you want.
You can't have delicate deep leaves, flowers and projections on something that will wind up being cast as a 500 pound block of concrete or plaster, you CAN if it's to be bronze, MAYBE fired terra cotta.

Moderate undercuts usually work and add to the design.


Also should I let the clay stiffen before I start subtracting? I'm using stoneware, the grog is kind of difficult to deal with. Is there a better type clay to work with. I've used porcelain but that is like butter. I'll show you what I'm doing as soon as I can. Thanks again. Scout

Landseer, is your avatar your work?[/QUOTE]
I start modelling the clay right out of the bag, as you work on it over time it WILL stiffen up, so it's best to start getting at least the shape and rough form into it while it is still soft, the finer details and texture work better going in as it starts to stiffen up a bit and some like to work on the leather hard clay like carving plaster, sanding, buffing, incising etc

There's hundreds of clays out there, there is probably no "best" clay for every use, if it's soft and grog free it may warp and crack, if it has grog to deal with that it can be a bit sandy in texture which is fine for large works, so it all depends. I'd pick the brain of the people at http://www.georgies.com in Portland Ore for their suggestions, they carry and make about 35 different clays and suggested the three finger jack clay I am now using after looking over my photos and emails.

Nah , my avatar is of the bronze of Bartolomeo Colleoni, I have a reduced sized version of it in bronze on marble from Germany

[SJFresearcher]

For anyone interested in seeing the evolution of a medal being made from clay to finished product, search for the wonderful 1997 VHS movie Medal Maker:Laura Gardin Fraser-Master Sculptor. It contains a rare and amazing 1929 film following Fraser as she creates a medal for the National Sculpture Society. A rare treat!

[Landseer]

For anyone interested in seeing the evolution of a medal being made from clay to finished product, search for the wonderful 1997 VHS movie Medal Maker:Laura Gardin Fraser-Master Sculptor. It contains a rare and amazing 1929 film following Fraser as she creates a medal for the National Sculpture Society. A rare treat!Funny enough I DID happen to find that title last night and was looking for it, unfortunately it is now out of print, Amazon.com doesnt have it, Movies unlimited doesnt and several outlets that listed at least one says they were informed by the publisher that this is now out of print.
It looked like a real winner of a movie too...

It was in that antiquated VHS format and now that everything is going to DVD maybe that is one reason they shelved it- limited sales to begin with and then who today buys a new VCR any more? the VCR is like the old super 8mm film cameras and projectors- obsolete and soon off the market.

[SJFresearcher]

The video pops up on Ebay every so often. Or you might try contacting the gift shop at the St. Gauden's National Historic Site in Cornish, NH. I was there a very weeks ago and noticed they had a few copies for sale in their shop. It is well worth the trouble to locate!

[rickb]

The video pops up on Ebay every so often. Or you might try contacting the gift shop at the St. Gauden's National Historic Site in Cornish, NH. I was there a very weeks ago and noticed they had a few copies for sale in their shop. It is well worth the trouble to locate!

Thanks for the tip on the video. I just received one from St Gauden's website/phone order. Its short and not captioned (I dont hear well so there may be some great tips I've missed) but shows nearly every step of the process of making a coined medallion (including distubing scenes of a thumbless 1930's pressworker coining the medal in a huge press). Well worth it, especially since I'm making some medallions now.

And thanks to those who posted all the beautiful medals. Some very well done sculpture.

RB

[Landseer]

Good lead, I ordered a copy today, so it seems they have at least a few copies left. Only thing is I neither own a VCR nor a TV set.

[Landseer]

Looks like they sold out all of their copies that they did have and returned my payment with a note that the item is no longer available/discontinued.

[rickb]

Only thing is I neither own a VCR nor a TV set.

Land, now you are set: no TV, no VCR and no Tape. Its perfect!

:).