The best site for war-time German sculpture

[mountshang]

The best web site for war-time German sculpture is:

http://www.thepaganfront.com/brangolf/gallery/gallgermsculp.html

... assembled by someone in the Russian branch of some-kind-of adolescent skinhead, neo-nazi, black metal fan club (that insists that it's not adolescent, not nazi, and not a music fan club!)

This fellow has not only scanned in the most pictures -- but he's also gone out there with his camera and taken some new shots of pieces that are still surviving. (or maybe he's just pulled these shots off the internet -- who
knows ?)

The point is that he's seems to be as enthusiastic for a genre of figure sculpture as he is for head-banging black metal rock bands.

(I just hope he confines his testosterone-crazed behavior to bashing the drunken heads of his fellow Aryan warriors.)

A few years ago, I read in Art News that when the Allies had finally blasted their way into Berlin at the end of the war, tons of Nazi sculpture was locked up in a few Berlin warehouses to which access was strictly forbidden.

Maybe they had the right idea (i.e. to preseve it -- but to keep it buried for a few generations)

[Jamo]

If you do any study in art history you realize that art is directly linked with the political regime of the time. For example with the egyptians there was
akhenaten who changed the the capital city renamed it in his name akhetaten and had huge amounts of artwork
made in his image. After his death there was an iconoclasm of his images and most of this art was lost. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Akhenaten_%28realistic%29.jpg
Then if I am not correct we could use Augustus Caesar as an example of Iconoclasm. We should all know Caesar from bill shakespeare or maybe a night or two in Vegas at Caesar's palace. But the point is after he was assasinated I think there was a mass destruction of sculptures and busts made in his image. It would be politically and morally improper to view these works or to show them thus they had to be destroyed. Fast forward a few years theres that war in Iraq. What is one of the most famous images and footage from the war? http://www.wepsite.de/Saddam_statue_pulled_down.jpg and they took the bronze and created this http://www.pardonmyenglish.com/archives/2004/07/before_and_afte.html
I think we should be starting to see a pattern emerging. Anyways I think the responsible thing to do is to preserve it and maybe lock it away for a few years and then view it and learn something from it. Its like not writing a history textbook about the atrocities of the holocaust because it is too haneous to be mentioned. We really are looking at a skewed version of art history. I guess that old adage history is written by the victors goes for art history as well.

[JasonGillespie]

I think we should be starting to see a pattern emerging. Anyways I think the responsible thing to do is to preserve it and maybe lock it away for a few years and then view it and learn something from it.

Yes, most art history does view art within the social/political framework of its time. This has been the trend for a good number of years and the pattern is an established one. The books are already on the shelves....the problem is the world at large, ie those outside the artistic/anthropological/sociological communities, fairly often could care less. (Add to this perhaps a growing number of individual artists too.)

The present moment is another fine example. As we fight the war against Islamic terrorists and against those regimes that harbor them...the policy makers and war planners are not concerned with the creative aspects of any of these affected cultures....at least not in a demonstrable way. When the dust clears and things are no longer exploding, those dedicated to preserving what is left will come in and pick up the pieces as best they can....some are trying to do that even now, though the effectiveness is substanially lessened by the ongoing conflict.

The case of Hitlerian artwork is a special one. The feelings and general repugnance that has accompanied the actions of this particular totalitarian regime has been exponentially greater than any other I am aware of. It has caused an eclipse to fall upon anything that might have been created under its auspices. The fact that many other such regimes have been equally bloodthirsty, if not as effectively organized in carrying out their evil, does little to mitigate that fact. An interesting read of what did go on at a creative level (and others) during Hitler's reign is Albert Speer's autobiography, Inside the Third Reich. (He was Hitler's architect and eventually became his minister of the economy.)

Stalin is thought to have killed as many or more than Hitler during his reign, but we do not take quite the same view of his atrocities. That they happened is known, but it does not color every aspect of creative effort under his rule. A strange and somewhat hypocritical oversight. (Not the first) It is a western 'blind spot' of sorts. But we did allow Hitler to do what he did for quite sometime before moving against him. Churchill warned of Hitler's rearming, (one of Adolf's more obvious actions in violation of the Treaty of Versailles,) years before and the West slept. Politics, as the say, makes strange bedfellows.

In 500 years from now, when time has erased the presently remembered pain of what Nazi Germany did, how will future generations view their art?


By the way, Julius Caesar was not a victim of iconoclasm. Augustus was Julius's grand-nephew and did not harbor ill feeling towards him...so didn't try and erase the elder Caesar's image from the public arena. There are examples of sculptures of Julius (busts), there just weren't a lot due to the transition of Rome from a republic to a monarchy still being a fairly new process. The mass production of the "official portrait" began with the first true Roman emperor, Augustus and became a standard item there after.

[dwright]

When the footage aired of the Saddam sculptures destruction, this became a topic of discussion among some friends. All agreed that the deliberate defacement by our forces of these artworks was horrible.
I asked if the group's feelings would also apply to a bust of Hitler...my Jewish friend said he would enthusiastically deliver the explosives to destroy it himself.
Sort of depends on your perspective.
Locked away is the best idea, maybe, and what actually happens, though carried out by individual collectors.

[JasonGillespie]

When the footage aired of the Saddam sculptures destruction, this became a topic of discussion among some friends. All agreed that the deliberate defacement by our forces of these artworks was horrible.
I asked if the group's feelings would also apply to a bust of Hitler...my Jewish friend said he would enthusiastically deliver the explosives to destroy it himself.


Interesting that your friend was of two minds about the same act...applied to two different regimes. This inability to disassociate one's reasoning from one's emotions is a paradox of a most human sort.



I guess that old adage history is written by the victors goes for art history as well.

To some extent this is true, though in art history the 'victors' are usually the current arbiters of taste and the intelligensia...sometimes they are in line with ruling political party...sometimes not. Case in point, our government is and has been through out its lifespan, relative to the rest of the Western world, a conservative one...but our art does not reflect that conservativism. If the 'victor' wrote the art history in this country, the Jeff Koon's and the Robert Mapplethorpe's of the art world would not be darlings as they presently are. (Mapplethorpe postumously) Instead it is written by the spiritual descendants of Gertrude Stein like Clement Greenberg and those of a like frame of mind.


Strangely enough Gertrude Stein, before WWII, opined that Adolf Hitler should be awarded the Nobel Peace prize saying, "I say that Hitler ought to have the peace prize, because he is removing all the elements of contest and of struggle from Germany. By driving out the Jews and the democratic and Left element, he is driving out everything that conduces to activity. That means peace ... By suppressing Jews ... he was ending struggle in Germany" (New York Times Magazine, May 6, 1934)

Just goes to show that perception is everything....until your perceptions turn out to be wrong.

[Jamo]

I'm sorry I was just spouting off here. I meant to say Julius instead of Augustus and on top of that I'm fabricating something that never happened oops. Maybe a better example of iconoclasm was during Constantine's time and when the Christians took over from the Roman empire. The forum was looted and crosses were erected on temples of pagan gods. Most of the stone and marble we see in St. Peters Basillica in Rome was from Nero's palace (again im just spouting this off from memory not citing a text book corerct me if i'm wrong) It was easier to recycle the old marble than to go out and quarry more. This just shows you how lavish and well off the Roman empire was at one point I also believe the christians tried to destroy most of what was in the forum. Some columns were left standing because they were just too difficult to knock down so instead they erected crosses changing the purpose of the buildings. But the main point of my argument was that destruction of art has been the norm for a long while when it comes to regime change. Maybe the second world war is a special case because we have seen evil propagated to levels never seen before because of technological innovation. In the past 100 years we have seen technology change things at an exponential rate. We can record things in ways that were unimaginable in the past. Michelangelo's David is now a digital file being served up on the internet. So iconoclasm simply by physical destruction is no longer possible thanks to Moore's Law. The point is the second world war isn't distant history yet and it would be difficult to make any fully unbiased observations. Jeff Koons or Robert Mapplethorpe are not part of art history yet either although it may seem they will be written up for their “ground breaking progressive artwork”(it pains me to say). Also remember Rodin successively was denied three times admittance to l'Ecole des beaux-arts and had fierce critics within the academic elite until the day he died. So it is possible to exist outside of academia. To say that the west acted as moral puritans during WWII would simply be a fairy tale. Many U.S companies played a big role in helping Hitler carry out and accomplish the Holocaust. I.B.M supplied much of the organizational know how to help transport Jews to the concentration camps. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/03/27/print/main504730.shtml
It was well known within the western governments what was happening. Canada & the U.S were even rounding up Japanese citizens in concentration camps themselves. This was racially motivated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment
I think what the U.S was doing was giving itself some time before it actually jumped into the war and build up their production capacity. They knew at some point they would eventually be drawn in but were hoping to stay out of it. Anyways I'm getting off topic and should be making more art instead of blathering nonsense. One more old adage if anyone could bear to hear it .....
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

[JasonGillespie]

Jamo,

You are ultimately right. Art destruction has been the norm. Cultures too often do not respect the art of societies different from themselves. The reuse of marble from the buildings of classical Rome was a practical choice on top of the idealogical/theological reasons. Why quarry your own stone when you can reuse what is there for the taking?


Canada & the U.S were even rounding up Japanese citizens in concentration camps themselves. This was racially motivated.

A comparison between the 'final solution' of Nazi Germany and the internment of Japanese in the US and Canada after Pearl Harbor was bombed is way wrong. The motivation and reasons for what was happening with the Japanese had nothing to do with any racial agenda ...it was a direct reaction to the perceived possibility of a Japanese invasion and the paranoia about Japanese-American loyalties. Obviously the invasion never materialized, but after the surprise destruction of Pearl Harbor, the concern was what might happen. The Japanese weren't tortured, weren't killed and weren't being held because of some evil racial hatred. While an unfortunate episode in American/Canadian history and most likely not justified.....you are really comparing apples and oranges.

[Jamo]

I said To say that the west acted as moral puritans during WWII would simply be a fairy tale

I did not say "the final solution" was akin to Japanese and Canadian concentration camps. The point I was trying to make was that this was wrong. It was racially motivated and it was done without a rational warrant for it. Like you said paranoia over allegiance of Japanese North Americans. People had their property taken away and lost many things that was never returned to them.No they weren't exterminated, maimed, tortured or hurt physically. The things that Nazi Germany did were unparalelled by any other society in the history of the world. To say that it wasn't racially motivated is wrong as well. you said The motivation and reasons for what was happening with the Japanese had nothing to do with any racial agenda this is the very essence of racial discrimination. Taking someone just because they are Japanese and confining them because you are afraid of them attacking your country.

While an unfortunate episode in American/Canadian history and most likely not justified this is most definetly not justifiable

IBM was just one company though and it is unfair to use it as an example to paint the entire western civilization in this light. But one thing that is for sure the west is not a perfect dictator of moral authority, and IBM is one of those shinning beacons of American capitalism and according to what has been documented they were facilitating to a degree the holocaust.

[fritchie]

Once again, thanks, Mountshang, for finding and posting this reference to WW II German sculpture. I spent quite a bit of time on the East-German site you also posted, so I'll have to save most of this one for later.

Let me also thank both Jamo and Jason Gillespie for a civilized discussion of very difficult topics. However, these discussions easily can get out of hand, so let me urge anyone making additional posts, to be exceptionally cautious.

Partly against my better judgement, also, I feel I have to indict U. S. treatment of German-Americans in the aftermath of World War I. My name is an anglicized version of the German name Fritzsche, altered by my immigrant grandfather not for any political reason, but simply because Americans never seemed to be able to spell the original.

From what I’ve read, Germans constitute the largest group of immigrants to the U. S., and prior to WW I, German-language newspapers, churches, and social groups were very common across the country. Following WW I, all this vanished in a sort of xenophobia similar to that which led to internship of Japanese-Americans during and after WW II., and not unlike anti-Moslem and anti-Arab activity today. War always does seem to stress tolerance of The Other

[JasonGillespie]

Jamo,

If I misunderstood your comments you have my apologies. You were talking about the concentration camps of Nazi Germany one second and the internments in Canada and America the next. It seemed a comparison to me. My mistake.

Obviously the ramifications of the Japanese internment on the lives and property of those affected were great. Much was lost and never regained. We can only strive to not repeat the mistakes of the past.
But I think too that we can not judge those from a time we ourselves did not live through......as if they had the benefit of our knowledge and insights. It is quite obvious they didn't. We can judge what they did, but it should be within the context of their time and understanding, not ours. It is too easy a thing to use critical hindsight from the comfort of our armchairs in this day and age and think ourselves much wiser and better than those before us. The fact is someone will do the same to us one day.




Mountshang,

Thanks for posting this link(the site's politics aside). The pictures are quite good and a whole new crop of sculptors to look at. What is interesting to me is to see that even within such a powerfully homogenized style of sculpture, you can see the individual artist in the small details and embellishments.
My favorite work (below) was a very atypical sculpture....within the context of the entire grouping. It was a deftly turned piece of portraiture in my opinion.