Success ???

[jOe~]

The two kinds of successes available to us artist types cannot co-exist. One satisfies a desire to be validated by acceptance, which in turn negates, prevents and even destroys that other success: genuine and unaffected personal advancement and achievement. You are fooling yourself if you think you can have them both.Evaldart posted this recently on another thread. So rather than hijack another one I brought it over here. So what is
success. At some point you ask yourself, maybe on a bad day, "Why the heck am I spending so much time on ... . What is it really all about?" Money, as in making a living, or at least meeting expenses was not mentioned in the first two alternatives but may or may not be lumped in with acceptance.

[Ries]

I sez Baloney.

The tortured "nobody understands me" pysche works fine for some people, and is just irrelevant to others.

I can think of a few artists, (just a few, mind you) who are both successful in terms of critics, museums, and money, AND are totally at ease with themselves and their work.

Now, maybe, in the eyes of some, just being financially successful means you MUST be selling out, but I dont believe it.

I think Serra, DiSuvero, Rauschenberg, Dine, Guston, Westermann, Kienholz, and Chamberlin, for example, all made exactly the art they wanted to make, without the slightest concern for the market or critics. And it sells anyway.

I am sure given a bit of internet research time, I could come up with a whole bunch more idiosyncratic, grumpy artists who in spite of themselves do well, both financially and career wise.

[GlennT]

For a change I agree with Ries.;)

The two kinds of successed mentioned are not necessarily mutually exlusive. It is more likely that they would be if the artist was only focused on the acceptance aspect. An artist who is true to their inner calling will remain so with or without that type of success. Achieving acceptance for that artist just means that the burden shifts from figuring out how to survive to figuring out how to manage the money.

[evaldart]

Ries, who said anything about money? I wouldn't taint a discussion about creative successes with that.

The artists urge to exhibit or perform, however restrained or underplayed, is presupposed. (e.g.,No matter how guarded and secret the diary, the writer is powerfully aware and possibly even secretly hopeful that what he is writing will be read by others one day). But if you're lucky, there are individual creative efforts, or even periods of creative effort, that forget about the viewer or the audience or the communication and simply arrive out of a void...a void armed with skills and gear and medium. These very genuine artistic anomalies may or may not become exhibited, accepted and acclaimed - at which point the artist is encouraged to repeat. More acclaim. Decisions are now being made based not on the natural progress of the work, they are being made in response to the achieved successes. And even if the artist recognizes this and wants to spit in the eye of such favor and consciously produce something that he feels will be rejected (in the interest of artistic purity), he will fail because the spit in the eyes itself was initiated by the acclaimed efforts. It will require a giving-in, a relinquishing of artistic ideals, a succumbing to accident to get back on track.
Making exactly what you want to make and making what you SHOULD be making are not the same thing. It will require a leap of self-evalaution to see this.
So the best thing to do is walk merrily down that tightrope of a trail, picking daisy's from both sides as you go.

If my last meal ends up being a 64 oz porterhouse at Ruths Chris or a triple whopper I will be equally satiated by the pleasure. But its up to me to be sure that its NOT a damn Fallafel with hummus. You ARE in control if you want to be.

[StevenW]

I don't think he was speaking about monetary success, rather inner success and perhaps more, self-fulfillment or self-actualization in the sculptural sense.

[ironman]

Hi, I posted an answer in the other thread but I'll add my 2 cents worth here also.
I do tend to agree with Evaldart on this but as Ries pointed out, those famous artists he mentioned, made what they wanted to make and it sold anyway.
They (famous artists) may even have a more difficult time of it than us nobodies. At a certain time in their careers they are free as birds to pursue anything and everything, creatively, and even if it sucks, it'll sell and more to the point, no one will tell them "it sucks" because it has their signature on it.
Whereas, us nobodies won't be able to market the crap work (at least I hope not) so we'll have to do our work, our way and hope for the best.
So, maybe we do get some social validation (bad work doesn't sell) and the famous artists don't (all their work sells). I feel sorry for them.
The problem with this is we're relying on the public, and they know nothing about our individual goals as artists.
Example: My work is non objective and I had a university art dept. head tell me that "ALL my work has feeling."
I mentioned to a client that if I detect elements of a decorative nature entering my work, I get rid of them. I'm only after communicating certain feelings. She said, "that's interesting", which means she has no idea what I'm doing nor the aesthetic education to see the feelings that I'm communicating.
Have a great day,
Jeff

[jOe~]

The problem with this is we're relying on the public, and they know nothing about our individual goals as artists.
"The only success worth one's powder was success in the line of one's idiosyncrasy. What was talent but the art of being completely whatever one happened to be?" (Henry James)

"A man is a success if he gets up in the morning and gets to bed at night, and in between he does what he wants to. "(Bob Dylan)

[oscar]

While visiting another city last week, I stepped into one of the top galleries. Quickly the owner determined I was an artist and asked such to verify. I stood for a moment then said, "unfortunetly, yes. If there was just anything else at all I could do, then I'd be doing it". It's not about success. It's not about anything. I don't want to be an artist. There is simply nothing else I can do. The art world sucks. Personality is now more important than talent. Only the connected make it big. All I've done my entire life is make art. I'm fricken disabled with bi-polar and not a damn gallery will touch me. I am the tortured artist! Go ahead and make fun of me! Go ahead you talentless drudge. Success, yeah right. Success is just like anything else! You buy it.

[GlennT]

Let us know when the other pole kicks in...then we can have a real conversation.

[oscar]

Well Glen T, that pretty much catagorizes yourself as one of the talentless.

Perhaps the comment "Success is just like anything else! You buy it", alluded you. My other pole? Let me just say that one quarter of just one of my poles far exceeds your abilities.

[cooljamesx1]

feel free to ride your "talent" as far as it goes

[oscar]

One buys success. It takes money to make money is an old adage, but is still true. The Yale diploma's are still king of the resume and the art world. Who you know and who you blow was once the credo. Now it's just money. An artist who has a good personality and sales abilities will climb to the middle rungs of success. But it's only the wealthy that gain fame nowadays. Why? They buy it. Their family buys it. Their names buy it. Money buys success. If anyone thinks that some podunk from hootersville can become a famous successful artist they are as mistaken as the belief that anyone can become president. Talent has nothing to do with success. Success is bought.

[oscar]

It's easy to make fun of my rants but I feel they are quite pertinent to and in the conversation of "success". I know why I'm not successful, do you? If I were rich my bi-polar disease would be totally irrelavant. It sure as hell is what is keeping me from mid-level success.

There are no famous successful sculptors on this entire site. So...., instead of trying to define success, tell evryone why YOU are NOT successful!!!!!

[StevenW]

Well, psychological decompensation aside, success means many different things to different people. To me, the mere fact that my one little sperm made it to mom's egg out of 250 million other one's means I'm a success. We've all won the lottery in that respect already so the rest of our entire lives and everything that happens in them is just "so fuckin what". :)

Attitude will take you further toward monetary success than anything else, including families with boatloads of money. There are plenty of rich families with "no body's" for sons and daughters too. Talent may be overshadowed in our society, but it is far from irrelevant. Your argument has some merit anyway and there's lots and lots of crap and garbage passing for genius art. It's not just in the art world though and thinking it will be any better in some other job is wishful at best. Chef schools all across the country now pump out thousands of certified chefs every year and almost all of them think they'll just go do 6 months of internship and the five star hotels and restaurants will all just line up begging them to come and work for them. Bwahahaha... :) They'll be lucky if they make Exec Chef in 15 years at a Hilton or Sheraton and 20 for a Ritz Carlton.. Anyway, point is whatever you do you need to approach it with a healthy attitude and with realistic expectations. It's a very competitive world to be sure, but the more people there are making art, the more there are buying it.
Just like anything else, you need to assert yourself with realistic expectations and you will succeed. People have been around for millions of years with Bi-polar disorder without ever even knowing it, obesity is nothing new and neither is alcoholism or schizophrenia. Get over the poor me syndrome and you'll start scoring. If you think it's some one time roll of the dice and bam, I'm famous you're kidding yourself too. Even Tiger Woods had to play thousands of rounds of golf and win hundreds of tournaments before anyone knew he was Tiger Woods.

[jOe~]

People have been around for millions of years with Bi-polar disorder without ever even knowing it, obesity is nothing new and neither is alcoholism or schizophrenia.And many doors will never open to those with the afflictions you mention. Correcting your attitude works if bad attitude is your predominant problem. These are very serious problems.Even Tiger Woods had to play thousands of rounds of golf and win hundreds of tournaments before anyone knew he was Tiger Woods. And I betcha if he'd been Bi-polar he wouldn't be where he is today. Tiger is a member of the lucky sperm club.

[evaldart]

Oscar. I know some artists who you would definitely consider "famous" and "successful", and guess what....they don't have any talent , their relationships are a train wreck and their various "psychosises" and "disorders" leave them constantly miserable. Sound familiar? They are failing at life, drowning in excess -and all this despite the celebrating reviews and the big galleries. Its just another "behind the music" scenario. I don't want nothing they got. (although one of them just picked up an ass-kicking F-550 flatbed for his grocery shopping. I want that)
Many people get to the "top" of the art scene and they all get there differently. Your problem might be that you are too passive and have too many excuses. (And you can't wear the sculpture costume into the galleries - makes you look desperate, kills it all right away).
There are many flourishing artists on this site but more importantly there are many here who are enriching their lives and reaping fruitful knowings by their artistic efforts. Minutes and hours do not matter to a real artist - Time is HIS servant, lavishing that artist daily with conundrums to solve and mythologies to bring about.
We all HAD to be artists but there are so many roles to assume in life, some more rewarding than others. We are hopefully not poorly written stock chcaracters, us artist types - we must take everything our limitless consciousness has to offer. Plunder it.
Maybe thats a nutshell of success...in a couple of days I'll have a new answer. Ahh, the beauty of it all.

[StevenW]

And many doors will never open to those with the afflictions you mention.


Gee, I dunno...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_believed_to_have_been_affected_by_b ipolar_disorder

Didn't seem to slow these people down, I never knew about Isaac Newton, one of my personal favorites.

[jOe~]

Didn't seem to slow these people downThe manic phase definitely didn't slow any of them down. The depressive phase slowed some of them down permanently. That could bring up of the old argument that genius (or, at least, creative talent) and mental disorder are linked. I'd give up all of whatever talents I have before having to deal with severe life long depression. Can't get any work done if you're always on the look out for the highest bridge.

[StevenW]

I'd give up all of whatever talents I have before having to deal with severe life long depression.

Are you sure? Let's say for the sake of argument that you actually did sacrifice any and all talent to be emotionally and psychologically 100% stable (I shudder at the thought of the great loss to our society at-large). You would rather be an elevator operator with little or no ability to do anything else other than push a button to the correct floor than have some creativity (genius even) at the cost of depression. I think that was the reasoning behind labotomy's and electro shock therapy, at least they'll be free from x,y or z...

Not me, I'll take the genius and depression and what's more, I'll take the genius and get some medication and or psychological help.

[jOe~]

I said "severe and life long depression". I never said anything about being "emotionally and psychologically 100% stable".
I'll take the genius and depression and what's more, I'll take the genius and get some medication and or psychological help. The "fix" ain't always so easy and fun as taking happy pills and telling stories to a shrink. By the way, a long time ago, as part of my job, I saw a few lobotomy's and electro shock therapy survivors. And I saw those that struggled desperately even with the benefit of medication and couch healers. Sounds like you've never been depressed--a case of the blues maybe, but you wouldn't be so glib if you'd ever been suicidal. You sure you want to make a deal with the devil and renounce your membership in the lucky sperm club? You may not be able to enjoy your rewards.

[StevenW]

Sounds like you've never been depressed--a case of the blues maybe, but you wouldn't be so glib if you'd ever been suicidal.

Thanks Joe, whether you know it or not, that's one of the most complimentary things you've ever said to me.
I don't believe that it's glib to suppose people can actually thrive despite sometimes terrible difficulties. If retracting some supposed deal with the devil means otherwise than you can feggetaboutit. :)

[evaldart]

Well my Attention Deficit Hyeractive Disorder has served me well. Spawning surprisingly varied bodies of work in a tornado of nervous uncontrolled energy. I never know what the hell I'll be doing next...only that it will be physically depleting and 85% complete. Hardly a disability.

[jOe~]

Better book mark that post Steven--save it for a rainy day.:)

[Cantab]

I have some sympathy with Oscar on this. I have often felt that the things that drive me and make my life meaningful are not entirely a conscious choice on my part. We all end up doing what we can do. My choices aren’t entirely mine, any more than my idea of ‘success’ is. And that’s perhaps important to recognise. I’ve often tried to work out what it was about art that has absorbed me, and I’ve not always been pleased with my conclusions. Sometimes I have felt that the work I produce is a seeking for recognition/acceptance/ acknowledgement. At other times, when I’m less neurotic about it, I see art as a kind of shamanic medicine, ala Ted Hughes. An antidote to the mess, an easing of the ache in the soul, a clarification akin to the religious. That’s the success I seek, but I know that my mind is up to other things too, and I’m not sure what. But I can dismiss financial success quite easily. I’ve never sought it – it never mattered. I had great art and literature teachers when I was a kid, and money was too shallow for us! We knew it didn’t matter UNLESS you didn’t have art!

[jOe~]

We knew it didn’t matter UNLESS you didn’t have art!Why? Because art is the truth, even if its a lie. You need art to combat all the other lies. They are mostly a waste of time. They point in the wrong direction. Who needs that kind of confusion?

[Cantab]

I certainly don't see any confusion here, Joe, or any issue of art and truth. Nothing that deep. Just didn't need money. Art was enough. Give me a bunch of kids and a play by Shakespeare, or a good carving session in Carrara. Don't need anything else. But we have to channel our creativity into something, and I think a lot of people do it through business and the acquisition of wealth. Having said that, I've made quite a lot of money, but that's because I had a talent for hard work. Actually, I don't have a lot of artistic talent, I just know what is important to me, and if anyone else felt the same then money wouldn't matter so much. That I'm sure of, for some reason.

[evaldart]

Creativity is simply a tool that we species of greater consciousness use to solve problems...ALL problems; a guide for decision-making. Of course most of the time we solve our problems by previously established, tried-and-true methods. Learned methods. Those with the ability to conjure new solutions are likely to be more successful because of the fact that one is likely to constantly encounter problems that he or she has never before faced. Artistic creativity comes about when the problems are self-inflicted, new and different ones everytime (hopefully)...a blatant challenge to that Creativity "Lets see if I can make a circle with corners...impossible? We'll see about that", and so Art occurs. Successful? Who the #@$%& knows.

And money/finances needn't hold any relevence here-in...because a truly creative individual can find a way to make chicken-salad out of chicken shit.

[jOe~]

Cantab, you misunderstood me and thats my fault as I was as usual trying to be funny obtuse zen stupid.Creativity is simply a tool that we species of greater consciousness use to solve problems.
I agree with everything you say Evaldart except in the above I'd probably change "consciousness" to "consequence". I think we are a species of greater consequence. Consciousness seems to be a rare commodity, and most problems are "solved" without it, which I guess you were getting at in the "tried-and -true methods" comments. Given an uninterrupted history of all manner of violence on a massive scale, I take a dimmer view of mankind.

[Cantab]

Joe – Post 25. I see what you mean. My error. I like what you say here, particularly about pointing in the wrong direction.
Evandart – you raise that most difficult issue (the creativity that underpins all we do) and explain it well. Which is why it is hard for me to be too superior about artists and be negative about people who use their creative energies in other ways. But, like Joe, I do regularly feel that ‘wrong directions’ are being taken. A commitment to the arts will only add to a vibrant culture. Too much mindless pursuit of success may lead to meltdown. Where’s the success in that? And what have we done with our creativity in the process?

I feel that we cannot get anything right if the culture isn’t right in the first place. If we want to reduce our impact on the ecosystem, for instance, then it’s a cultural change that’s needed. Not just carbon taxes. It’s about not needing certain behaviourisms. It’s about reining in human desire, and that must mean that we define success more carefully. And maybe downplay its value in a meaningful life. Joe’s Zen thoughts appeal….

[jOe~]

And money/finances needn't hold any relevence here-in.Before having money you know what you really need. After meeting those needs most get drunk stupid on satisfying irrelevant ones, and the rich get addicted thanks to a material culture that is built on, depends on acquisition. I don't go to stores very often, a mall maybe once a year. Its a mind boggling acid trip to see all the unessential useless shit that will end up in land fills. I recently walked through a mall with unfathomable loads of merchandise--and no art, nothing meaningful, nothing essential to buy, just things that make people feel good about themselves in a way that made me feel like an alien. I take that back, there was a bookstore, with music and coffee.

[Will]

Ries, who said anything about money? I wouldn't taint a discussion about creative successes with that.

The artists urge to exhibit or perform, however restrained or underplayed, is presupposed. (e.g.,No matter how guarded and secret the diary, the writer is powerfully aware and possibly even secretly hopeful that what he is writing will be read by others one day). But if you're lucky, there are individual creative efforts, or even periods of creative effort, that forget about the viewer or the audience or the communication and simply arrive out of a void...a void armed with skills and gear and medium. These very genuine artistic anomalies may or may not become exhibited, accepted and acclaimed - at which point the artist is encouraged to repeat. More acclaim. Decisions are now being made based not on the natural progress of the work, they are being made in response to the achieved successes. And even if the artist recognizes this and wants to spit in the eye of such favor and consciously produce something that he feels will be rejected (in the interest of artistic purity), he will fail because the spit in the eyes itself was initiated by the acclaimed efforts. It will require a giving-in, a relinquishing of artistic ideals, a succumbing to accident to get back on track.
Making exactly what you want to make and making what you SHOULD be making are not the same thing. It will require a leap of self-evalaution to see this.
So the best thing to do is walk merrily down that tightrope of a trail, picking daisy's from both sides as you go.

If my last meal ends up being a 64 oz porterhouse at Ruths Chris or a triple whopper I will be equally satiated by the pleasure. But its up to me to be sure that its NOT a damn Fallafel with hummus. You ARE in control if you want to be.

Evaldart, correct me if I'm wrong, and I know you will, but I think a parallel of what you are talking about here would be the famous experiment hypothesized by Erwin Schrödinger and his famous theoretical cat. That if it is observed, it changes the outcome. By merely being aware, you have altered the experiment. Yes? I believe what you are saying is that by being aware of the success, it changes the way they perceive the work itself. It changes what they make... In the experiment and in physics it's called quantum indeterminacy or the observer's paradox.

Yes?

W~

[evaldart]

Well Will, yer better read than I am - "observer's paradox", yes indeed. But I do believe that proper artistic motivation is elusive and fragile. Especially as we consider modern or evolved or advancing versions of it. The art "product" is changing all the time and this happens because the motivators for art are changing. These motivators are initiated by independent invention - almost accidental encounters that peruse newer and newer territories. Lengthy planning and consideration is flawed because it draws upon things learned and recalled - the past. Art is one of the few places that can and will allow the consciousness to frolic in the playgrounds of the ever present "becoming", that place of exciting wonder and freshness (there cannot be a more inspiring place, not the Louvre or the Met even). So, it is important to be defensed against art-scenes, mentors, museums, money, praise, patronage and history. The "right" thing to choose and to do will just fall from the sky and a properly motivated artist will advantage his good fortune when it happens.
Of course though, as inhabitants of and participants in a human civilization only beginning to grasp and nurture their potential, we must yet survive and prosper - as individuals. So we make also what we must to remain well-fed and minimally distracted. And one would be encouraged to approach all this with a salting of vigor and a peppering of hedonism.
If your head is a stepping-stone over the shallownesses of human bewilderment, it will be less painful to have a strong neck.

[jOe~]

Art is one of the few places that can and will allow the consciousness to frolic in the playgrounds of the ever present "becoming", that place of exciting wonder and freshness (there cannot be a more inpiring place, not the Louvre or the Met even).Actually there are an infinite number of possibilities. I couldn't list them all. So I won't try. But you are right. Especially if art is your main thing.

[Mr. Malloy]

This is such s great topic! I love what you said Joe. Henry James and Bob Dylan are among my icons. I also, Stevan, Think that decoritive art is not where I am going. I do believe that I want the world to see what I make. I can not/do not have money as a goal (William Blake talked about those concepts being mutually exsclive "psychologically"). So to free myself from the "committe" editer in my head that is shooting down every idea before I follow through, I start from the idea ( This is a form that is building itself. I can expect that "they" will dislike it and make it regardless. Ironically I continue to find positive feedback from the public, to my suprise. Oh, wee, I still have never sold a thing. I also have never put anything 'for sale'. Ries is RIGHT Rauschemburg is one of the greatest. Do these people come from money? how else do they get their name out?

[Will]

Evaldart, Joe and MrMalloy, I couldn't agree more. It's such a paradox. As artists, we are catalysts for creativity. Funnels if you will. There is a certain responsibility to keep it as pure as possible, however, we are human and we must eat and interact as we are social creatures. Unless we hide the fact that we are artists at all and never even allude to what we are up to, it is inevitable that our work will be viewed by the general public at some time and therefore have some response to it. It is that response that then affects what we do.

I personally have not come up with a resolution. It is that moment between awake and asleep, when my mind wonders seemingly unaffected by the day that reminds me that the mental masturbation and turmoil that I go through during my waking hours is worth being called to be what I am. An Artist.

W~

[jOe~]

It is that response that then affects what we do.
Nope. Public response would affect what I do only if I sales were my first priority(unless I misunderstood). Not having to sell I have absolute freedom. I have no excuses for bad ideas.turmoil that I go through during my waking hours is worth being called to be what I am. An Artist.
It was a burden for me when I was younger and didn't know why I was so different than the people I was around or why normal jobs caused me so much mental pain--even though they paid well. Success for me was being myself--and being aware of what that meant and implied, just being an artist. That was a long time coming. I had shows, some sales, blah blah blah and still didn't realize I was an artist. It never occurred to me. I was just doing what I had to do to survive mentally. Only much later did I snap out of the fog and realize, oh thats why I was doing all that stuff. I should have recognized the implications for my future when I got recognition, but it all meant nothing to me. It was a distraction. I was talked into playing the gallery/recognition game. The most important thing at that time was learning about working, ideas, making stuff/images I liked and pushing all that as hard as I could. No real self awareness--lived in a cocoon and was trying to break out. I did realize that I was a major "scam artist" as all the straight jobs I manipulated into giving me huge amounts of free time so I could learn and read about art. I even snuck into the University of Washington and attended art history courses. I realized I was learning much more on my own and "dropped out".

[cooljamesx1]

joe- a lot of people would argue that communication is the most important function of art and so the response of viewers would be a huge priority. Not to say that there can't be art for the creator only, but it may be important to acknowledge the possibility of viewer response being important without the pressure of sales. It seems improbable that you completely dispel reaction as at least some influence. Do you show your art to nobody?

[tonofelephant]

Nope. Public response would affect what I do only if I sales were my first priority(unless I misunderstood). Not having to sell I have absolute freedom. I have no excuses for bad ideas.

Joe, don't quite agree with you. Sales are a priority for me but I do not think it affects my work, I do have to eat. I believe that sales are just a motivator to finish work and not leave it lying around to gather dust.

I came to this conclusion because if there is no money on the table, another project becomes more interesting or more useful to my goals. For example - I rewired 90% of my house 14 out of 15 rooms. Still have not finished the basement (my wood shop) nor a small bedroom. Had to quit the job because the month alloted for the job was up. That was 3 years ago. Now have to finish that job this spring.

As to "...no excuses for bad ideas" there are no bad ideas - just an execution that did no realize the original idea. Part of the fungible concept of ART, IMO, is to wrest back control of the idea from the direction it is taking back to your original concept. Sometimes I am content to let the art takes its own direction, most times there is a very definite direction I want - need - have to take. Most times, my more successful sculptures are the ones that I manhandle back to the original concept.

Carl

[evaldart]

Joe, people gave you lots of money and free time because you were smart and competent - and probably simply used to achieving your goals. We all get paid for being useful. It seems the greatest reward for you was the arrival of the knowledge that nourishing and pioneering your own creative impulses trumped all else.
Its up to the individual to assess the successful execution of an idea; decide whether or not it was a "bad" one. But I do not think this can be decided BEFORE it has been done. Because the methods and processes and your own physical involvement is capable of carrying off ANY idea. They all must be done (the ideas). So keep checking them off the LOOOONG list (hopefully you'll never get caught up - the secret is that you don't have to do them in order)

CJ, Regarding communication: its an impulse lingering in our DNA from our ancestors, a secret guilty pleasure that we hope will give us encouragement or support. It is the enemy of the evolving of the human being. Its quite an inescapable distraction for us Neanderthals but if you've done your part - your offspring will delight more so than yourself in the nourishing securities and limitless foundations that occur form the only real Truth: that you are indeed the proprietor of Eternity.

And dont forget to use your damn body during all this. I'd hate to think that later stages of man was an armless and legless slug.

[Duck]

Success as an artist is selling your position in Sotheby’s @ $49.85-1-19-07, shorting it on 11-1-07 @ $52.20, covering on 11-14-07 @ $35.46….:D

As far as creating art that communicates? Hmmm….why?

[jOe~]

cooljamesx1 and tonofelephant: I stand by what I said. There is no arguing or disagreeing involved. My comments are about me and apply to me only. Having absolute freedom means absolute freedom from opinions. I want everyone who does or might look at what I do to have a different opinion--they will anyway. If anything I do can be easily labeled or named, for me that would be one form of bad idea. If it was easily understood, that for me would be a mediocre idea. If it was ugly to me to me that would be a failed idea. IF it offended me that would be a terrible idea. Sure compliments are nice, but not necessary. I do not need external validation or approval since I work selfishly. Sometimes, some simple or silly looking piece I will treasure because some part of it may have been the result of an invisible personal break through or a personal memory or joke. If something brings personal pleasure, you sure as hell better not let anyone mess with that, eh?

[Mr. Malloy]

Joe, I like that note about lies. Art is the truth for sure! I have been told that I have a dissability by the government, a gift by creative people. I don't buy any it. All I know is that sculpture happens. I do not choose to do it. Why is it then that what makes me feel alive and whole and human, is so hard to start. All I think about is the projects that I am doing or want to start. And I get so side- tracted when I start yet another project when I am working on that one I've been trying to do a while now. Completing very little makes me crazy. I work, have two kids, a wife, and two dogs, and 6 chickens. I am busy but its not that. I have a PROBLEM with getting going on completion. I have too much energy to do nothing so I always 'tinker' but I think its like writer's block for sculptors. My ideas are accompanied with reasons that I bet they wont work. Being stuck makes me crazy. What do you do?

[Mr. Malloy]

Carl! I love that part about no bad ideas. And, like you implied, my better works are ones that I manhandled in sort of a manic state where I did not think too much. Thanks all

[evaldart]

Keeping the outcome a surprise is very important. The picture in your head of what you are aiming for is usually bland and predictable version of the idea. You got to leave it up the the wrong turns and forks in the road...the unexpected encounters and the "falling into place" of things. I don't belive that there are actually bad ideas. But there are bad executions of an idea.

I have been underwhelmed, unpleasantly surprised and disappointed plenty. Set them off to the side and move on to the next one. Someone else will love them eventually.

[jOe~]

The picture in your head of what you are aiming for is usually bland and predictable version of the idea. You got to leave it up the the wrong turns and forks in the road..This is a case where I found poor drawing ability to be a tremendous asset. What ends up on paper is always much more interesting than the picture in my head. I love the "mistakes" my drawing makes for me.

[evaldart]

Ahh, but we are also wise to know that not every precious "mistake" will be our servant. And bad choices are not mistakes - they simply reflect poor intuition. As we mature our intuition becomes increasingly sound, knowing where to go without the benefit of ever having been there before (though we have usually been someplace similar). As willing as I am to leave a disrobed and blushing Process out for all to see - there are always secret little parts that had to be covered, masked, costumed...fixed, lest my inabilities outperform my abilities. And we can't have that, can we?

[Tired Iron]

Success? By what definition? After reading all of the above I can't quite figure out what definition we are trying to fill here. Evaldart seems to think along my train of thought. I believe that when I triumphantly carry a new piece across the road to my house to show the family I am feeling successful.Their response (good, bad or indifferent)to the peice never takes away my feeling of success. Each piece is molded from my past life expierences or visions and from the present frame of mind and level of creative juices in my system. When I first started doing this it was for myself. As I brought it to galleries (at the encouagement of others) I answered "no" to the question of "Do you do commission work" I thought that my work created itself from the pieces I ran across or had in my possession at the time of creation.One gallery owner/artist.. told me that she found that commission pieces would provide new forks in the road and take her down avenues that she herself might not have found on her own, Many of these forks turned out pleasant and even profitable , to boot. Isn't that what life is? A series of forks in the road. Are we not influenced by all that we endure? Isn't each piece a success in itself? Regardless of the influences that inadvertantly brought it from concept to reality? I have,since then, taken on commissions and have enjoyed the trip. I count each as a success. Ultimately though, I am still do this thing called art.for ME!

[jOe~]

After reading all of the above I can't quite figure out what definition we are trying to fill here.You define it for your self. How cool is that?

[CroftonGraphics]

Did not the philosopher Nietszche (sp) once say that -

'all great things happen away from the poisonous buzzing flies of the marketplace'? or something along those lines?

[Will]

Did not the philosopher Nietszche (sp) once say that -

'all great things happen away from the poisonous buzzing flies of the marketplace'? or something along those lines?

The Flies in the Market-Place

FLEE, my friend, into thy solitude! I see thee deafened with the noise of the great men, and stung all over with the stings of the little ones.

Admirably do forest and rock know how to be silent with thee. Resemble again the tree which thou lovest, the broad-branched one- silently and attentively it o'erhangeth the sea.

Where solitude endeth, there beginneth the market-place; and where the market-place beginneth, there beginneth also the noise of the great actors, and the buzzing of the poison-flies.

In the world even the best things are worthless without those who represent them: those representers, the people call great men.

Little, do the people understand what is great—that is to say, the creating agency. But they have a taste for all representers and actors of great things.

Around the devisers of new values revolveth the world:—invisibly it revolveth. But around the actors revolve the people and the glory: such is the course of things.

Spirit, hath the actor, but little conscience of the spirit. He believeth always in that wherewith he maketh believe most strongly—in himself!

Tomorrow he hath a new belief, and the day after, one still newer. Sharp perceptions hath he, like the people, and changeable humors.

To upset—that meaneth with him to prove. To drive mad—that meaneth with him to convince. And blood is counted by him as the best of all arguments.

A truth which only glideth into fine ears, he calleth falsehood and trumpery. Verily, he believeth only in gods that make a great noise in the world!

Full of clattering buffoons is the market-place,—and the people glory in their great men! These are for them the masters of the hour.

But the hour presseth them; so they press thee. And also from thee they want Yea or Nay. Alas! thou wouldst set thy chair betwixt For and Against?

On account of those absolute and impatient ones, be not jealous, thou lover of truth! Never yet did truth cling to the arm of an absolute one.

On account of those abrupt ones, return into thy security: only in the market-place is one assailed by Yea? or Nay?

Slow is the experience of all deep fountains: long have they to wait until they know what hath fallen into their depths.

Away from the market-place and from fame taketh place all that is great: away from the market-place and from fame have ever dwelt the devisers of new values.

Flee, my friend, into thy solitude: I see thee stung all over by the poisonous flies. Flee thither, where a rough, strong breeze bloweth!

Flee into thy solitude! Thou hast lived too closely to the small and the pitiable. Flee from their invisible vengeance! Towards thee they have nothing but vengeance.

Raise no longer an arm against them! Innumerable are they, and it is not thy lot to be a fly-flap.

Innumerable are the small and pitiable ones; and of many a proud structure, rain-drops and weeds have been the ruin.

Thou art not stone; but already hast thou become hollow by the numerous drops. Thou wilt yet break and burst by the numerous drops.

Exhausted I see thee, by poisonous flies; bleeding I see thee, and torn at a hundred spots; and thy pride will not even upbraid.

Blood they would have from thee in all innocence; blood their bloodless souls crave for—and they sting, therefore, in all innocence.

But thou, profound one, thou sufferest too profoundly even from small wounds; and ere thou hadst recovered, the same poison-worm crawled over thy hand.

Too proud art thou to kill these sweet-tooths. But take care lest it be thy fate to suffer all their poisonous injustice!

They buzz around thee also with their praise: obtrusiveness is their praise. They want to be close to thy skin and thy blood.

They flatter thee, as one flattereth a God or devil; they whimper before thee, as before a God or devil; What doth it come to! Flatterers are they, and whimperers, and nothing more.

Often, also, do they show themselves to thee as amiable ones. But that hath ever been the prudence of the cowardly. Yea! the cowardly are wise!

They think much about thee with their circumscribed souls—thou art always suspected by them! Whatever is much thought about is at last thought suspicious.

They punish thee for all thy virtues. They pardon thee in their inmost hearts only—for thine errors.

Because thou art gentle and of upright character, thou sayest: "Blameless are they for their small existence." But their circumscribed souls think: "Blamable is all great existence."

Even when thou art gentle towards them, they still feel themselves despised by thee; and they repay thy beneficence with secret maleficence.

Thy silent pride is always counter to their taste; they rejoice if once thou be humble enough to be frivolous.

What we recognize in a man, we also irritate in him. Therefore be on your guard against the small ones!

In thy presence they feel themselves small, and their baseness gleameth and gloweth against thee in invisible vengeance.

Sawest thou not how often they became dumb when thou approachedst them, and how their energy left them like the smoke of an extinguishing fire?

Yea, my friend, the bad conscience art thou of thy neighbors; for they are unworthy of thee. Therefore they hate thee, and would fain suck thy blood.

Thy neighbors will always be poisonous flies; what is great in thee—that itself must make them more poisonous, and always more fly-like.

Flee, my friend, into thy solitude—and thither, where a rough strong breeze bloweth. It is not thy lot to be a fly-flap.—

Thus spake Zarathustra.

[evaldart]

While the constant expansion and development of our thinking is very important to artmaking, we, that involve ourselves in the bringing about of objects, must be very wary of the sedentary act of over-reading. Finding your way through the thick wilds of philosophy, history, poetry, criticism can cause massive damge due to hours lost...and you must wade through so much to get to what you really want. Moderation sculptors...read in moderation and be very selective; lest you find yourself too often prone or supine, nose in a book, instead of advancing yourself in the studio by action. If you only read while you're eating, nothing is lost.,,time well spent.

[CroftonGraphics]

Nice one Will.

Who said Nietzche wasnt selective reading Eval? Thats more or less the only philosophy I have read and enjoyed.

[evaldart]

Thats what I like to hear CG. No flailing wildy in an ocean of verbosities. When you know what your after, soak it for what its worth. I'm like that with Camus.

[jOe~]

If you only read while you're eating, nothing is lost.,,time well spent.How about during coffee breaks, elimination breaks, while others watch tv or play games or while they are sleeping. If I didn't read I'd get no rest!

[jOe~]

we, that involve ourselves in the bringing about of objects, must be very wary of the sedentary act of over-reading...evaldartDang that evaldart!! He is a wise one. He pretends not to be deep, but be fooled not. Of course I'm reading today, over-reading probably. And what do I read but an echo of the sage one, evaldart.

This is your life, and nobody is going to teach you, no book no guru.
You have to learn from yourself, not from books. It is an endless thing, it is a fascinating thing,
and when you learn about yourself from yourself, out of that learning wisdom comes.
Then you can live a most extraordinary, happy, beautiful life. Right?

Krishnamurti

[evaldart]

Did Krishna really say that? I always avoided his work because of those idiots in the orange robes. Figured if THEY believed it there could be nothing redeeming there-in. But I've been wrong once or twice.

[jOe~]

Did Krishna really say that? I always avoided his work because of those idiots in the orange robes.Jiddu Krishnamurti said that. Don't know anything about Krishna. I'm the idiot that wears a really thick, heavy, worn, blue terry cloth robe with kleenex and bread crumbs in the pocket. Krishnamurti didn't wear robes and wasn't an idiot.

[suburbanartists]

Success: If you want it simple from someones who is there see this.

1970 Robert Plant & John Bonham interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0fqgq6ZMZY&NR=1

[Mr. Malloy]

That other thread about Koons topping Hirst as the priciest sculptor alive last month made me think, today, that "Shit, when is something like that gonna happen to me?" I am following up on that other link on another thread that gives you free online lecture talks by people who do publicity for a living. And william Blake said that where money can be seen, no art can be produced. I take that to even mean money on my mind. For me when I am making something for money, I am not making art; but a product. Blah, is this the old cliche of "not wanting to sell out"? I do not know but I am sick of not getting recognition.

[Aaron Schroeder]

Mr Malloy........Do you really want to sell your art ? Wouldn't you rather keep it ?

I'm alright with the idea of making and selling ones art, I'm also alright with making product but I'd rather keep my stuff regardless of what it is called.

I guess what I'm saying is that my art is not for sale. I make product so that I don't have to sell my art. Selling out is what you have to do when you can't move your product. It's a sad day when an artist has to let go of their personnel collection. I suppose if offered enough money my sad day would quickly turn into a glad day.


Making product isn't so bad, I make alot of it. The bills get paid and I get to keep my Art.

In a way my products are better than my art, they have to please some one else other than myself.

A professional artist makes product ........an amatuer makes art.

[Merlion]

That other thread about Koons topping Hirst as the priciest sculptor alive last month made me think, today, that "Shit, when is something like that gonna happen to me?"
I am not their admirer. But to be fair to them, both of them are not there in that position by accident. They both have to put in a lot of effort and thinking.

[Mr. Malloy]

Good point Joe. This is a great topic. I battle with the can I market? and still make art? And Koons has BIG success in the notoriety/financial way this month. I can't help looking at that with a bit of disdane.

[Mr. Malloy]

You made a good point Joe about depression. As some one who has clinical depression and has had this disease for most of my life; I normally do not disclose that and refuse to discuss the topic because the term is so misused and widely misunderstood today. I do not say it has helped me in any way. I do know that if I do not treat that condition proffessionally first, I can make no sculpture. Let alone work at all. It is not romantic.

[Merlion]

Malloy, I hope what I say here is useful. There is no harm to put in the thinking, and put in the effort. Don't wait for opportunities to strike.

[evaldart]

without sculpture I could not be tired enough for this world. Depressions would arrive that would be executed with great fervor. Moving heavy things back and forth, up and down, forcing them to stick together under the pretense of high art is what keeps me in line. Evaldart loosed upon society, bored and motivated, would not bring about any success. For me, the labor is the success, regardless of how it looks. Digging a ditch could work but dirt is not my medium.