Sec. of Arts petition

[RWJR]

thought I'd pass this on http://www.petitiononline.com/esnyc/petition.html

[GlennT]

Why do we need yet another bloated bureaucratic trough from which to slop the pigs on capitol hill, while passing petty favors on to the loudest lobbyists?
Just because it would involve the arts?

[Ries]

Umm- maybe because if government doesnt spend money on the arts, which benefits communities spiritually, economically, and aestheically, they will, instead, spend the money on Bridges to Nowhere, more bombers, Halliburton, and bailing out billionaires.

Government funding is not going away, just cause we dont like what they spend it on- the pigs will find their troughs.

Arts spending, on the other hand, has been proven again and again to be more bang for the buck, affecting more people, and almost universally, people who DO NOT get money from the government in any other form- ballet dancers and school children, seniors and poets.

The choice is not to spend on the arts, or not spend.
The choice is to spend money on the arts, or on other, usually worse, things.

There is hardly a dancer, poet, painter, or composer among all the lobbyists, congressmen, and aides on Capitol Hill- they wont be getting any of this money. They got plenty of bigger troughs already.

[GlennT]

So, because all those other folks are getting some undeserved pie, we should have ours too? When does it end? Do we need a federal secretary of sewing circles? Do we need a secretary of sports? We have come quite a way from the founding father's wisdom and their concept of limited government, and it is not a good way, especially in this regard: when we look to the federal government as the answer and source for all things, we disempower ourselves. We also hamstring economic growth, the effects of which we are seeing today and seems possibly headed towards beyond belief with the Raw Deal-bailouts for every poor decision- method of government intervention.
How many additional programs and added debt can taxpayers shoulder before they are working mainly to support the government, not their families?

[grommet]

But tell us how you really feel, Glenn.. ( you have a bit of spittle on your cheek)
Understandably, it is difficult for a large entity to do everything well, so folks pass things off to people who know what they're doing. But there's so many gaps where people haven't picked up the slack/ lack of services.. You just gonna tell them sorry, nobody's interested in you, tough beans.?.. or do you recognize the need and make do with everyone pitching in a little, making the effort... many hands make light work.
There's already too many people with the "every man for himself" attitude. I don't think it's benefitted folks as much as they like to think.

[Ries]

Arts funding is not undeserved pie.
Arts funding pays back more than it costs, in actual tax income to local government, in jobs generated, and additional spending.

Military spending, on the other hand, is exactly what you described. And our current budget is over $500 Billion, PLUS what the wars, the "black budget", and all the intelligence services cost. Round it off to a cool Trillion a year, plus or minus.

Seems to me that we could cut a half trillion of somebody else's undeserved pie, fund the arts, and still save hundreds of billions in tax dollars.

As long as we are talking pie in the sky, here...

[GlennT]

But tell us how you really feel, Glenn.. ( you have a bit of spittle on your cheek)

That's not spittle, its drool left over from deep sleep.

Understandably, it is difficult for a large entity to do everything well, so folks pass things off to people who know what they're doing.

So who do you nominate for Secretary of Arts who knows what they're doing? Oprah Winfrey? Norman Mailer? Judge Judy? Or someone as unbiased as me?

But there's so many gaps where people haven't picked up the slack/ lack of services.. You just gonna tell them sorry, nobody's interested in you, tough beans.?..

My gosh, we've been at this for 230 years without a Secretary of Arts! How could all of this art have happened without a government bureaucracy in control?


or do you recognize the need and make do with everyone pitching in a little, making the effort... many hands make light work.
There's already too many people with the "every man for himself" attitude. I don't think it's benefitted folks as much as they like to think.

I'm looking forward to getting my free handout from the government, since there would obviously be no bias in determining who is worthy, nor any controls, standards, or agenda as to what art I must produce with the money.
Probably no accountablility either. Sound just about perfect!

[Ries]

Glenn, I believe that is called the "straw man" theory of discussion- you make up a straw man, attach every possible bad thing to it, and then give it a hefty kick.

Its fun, but not in any way connected to reality.

There is no arts funding, current or proposed, that meets any of your criteria.

Free Handouts?
No Controls?
No Accountability?

Never heard of any arts funding anything like that.

Even the long gone, as in close to 20 years ago, individual grants from the NEA, required accountability, and writing a proposal and then following up on it with a final report- and, as mentioned, those have been obsolete since before either of my kids were born.

Arts funding today usually means extensive vetting by panels of knowledgeable people in the field, lots of proposals with explicit details, VERY large contracts with a lot of legalese, payments that are based on matching grants, and so on.

I often get 100 to 200 page contracts, requiring state and local business licences, $1 Million dollars of liability insurance, detailed drawings, engineering, and then constant followup by govt agencies. I have had inspectors in my studio making sure I am doing things right.

Similar restrictions apply to most any arts money recepients, be they dance troupes, school arts teaching programs, music festivals, opera, art museums, or any of the other top dollar getters of federal and state arts funds.

Nobody gets any free handouts.
Instead, there are usually underpaid administrators who could make double or triple in the private sector, running museums, festivals, and theaters because they love what they do and believe in it, cobbling together budgets from many sources, always, in my experience, a mix of public and private.

[GlennT]

Ries, I was being faceitious to make my point. Grommet was sounding as though she believed that the Secretary of Arts position was going to result in handouts to needy artists who otherwise could not make it.

My point, obtuse as it may have been because I have to amuse myself somehow thinking about this nonsense, was that in fact, if such a position were created, it would be like any other government entity where it becomes its own self-sustaining fiefdom with a bottomless money supply from Joe middleclass's wallet, going to feed whatever agenda-driven cause celebre of the moment makes their shennaigans appear legitimate. The controls would be most visible in how the programs were formulated to further an agenda rather than to promote the finest and best art possible.

Example:

Calls for art: " Rappin' For Diversity" $100,000 in ten grants available for videographers, musicians, poets, and writers who want to tell the story of how rap culture has united the diverse factions of the inner city urban culture into one big fun-loving hip hop nation. Special preference given for people of color, people of stripes or plaids, people who had color but are now anemic, gender-issue identity-theft video game wizards with disabilities, and ex-mormons with control and authority issues. For prospectus, go to wnw.secretaryofthearts.us.gov.fleecey'all.org

[grommet]

Grommet was sounding as though she believed that the Secretary of Arts position was going to result in handouts to needy artists who otherwise could not make it.
Nothing of the sort.
However, the only point of reference i have at the moment is via friends who work for non-profits and deal with beaurocracy a lot. in other words, i have no info, but have heard a lot of crud about the struggles of trying to do good and make a difference in an avalanche of paperwork and criticism. It takes someone with vision to lead and cut through the the unnecessary bits to the heart of the matter... Some place to funnel the collective knowledge to...
Negativity such as you are displaying doesn't help the matter.

[GlennT]

[QUOTE=grommet;71506Negativity such as you are displaying doesn't help the matter.[/QUOTE]

It does if you look at it like this:

Creating a National Secretary of Arts cabinet position: Negative

Not doing that: Positive, or at least neutral

Otherwise, I'm not quite sure how to discuss a bad idea and give it a positive spin for the sake of sounding upbeat or supportive. What I consider helpful is thinking through consequences of an action first instead of just going through with it because it feels good. And I'm not sure how adding another layer of bureacracy to cut through the bureaucratic red tape is going to help, even if that was the intention. And I have my doubts that such would be the intention.

[Ries]

it would be like any other government entity where it becomes its own self-sustaining fiefdom with a bottomless money supply from Joe middleclass's wallet, going to feed whatever agenda-driven cause celebre of the moment makes their shennaigans appear legitimate.

I know this is an unpopular belief, but I happen to think that far from being what you describe, many government entities actually do a much better job than the private sector could, for LESS money.

Take, for example, social security- the actual administration of social security costs less than 1% of the funds disbursed. There is NO mutual fund or stockbroker you can find that will do what they do for anywhere near that little money.

Or the military- the US Army, Navy, and Airforce managed, for a couple hundred years, to do what Halliburton does now- feed troops, build barracks, supply troops at the front- for about a quarter of what Halliburton and other Cheney owned companies charge.

The post office gets a lot of grief- but, next time you need a letter mailed, trot over to Fed-Ex and offer them forty two cents to deliver your letter, and see how far you get...

Similarly, the government delivers education, fire protection, forestry management, police services, public health care like innoculations, and many more services, at a fraction of the cost of similar, usually lower quality, private providers.

I have seen absolutely no proof that EVERY government entity, much less a majority of them, is anything like what you describe.
I knew people, personally, who have worked for the NEA, and they sure didnt get any of the mythical powers that you suggest.

As for documenting rap- I get the feeling you scoff at it just because its rap. Have you actually seen the results of any of these grants?
Its quite possible that they may actually be funding quality art- I saw a film recently documenting the "Krump" movement of rap dancing in LA, which was a documentary called "Rize", and it was a very good film, and I wouldnt be surprised at all if some government grants helped make it- and I have NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER with funding things like that.

You must keep in mind, however, that 90% or more of government arts money goes to VERY conservative organisations- opera, ballet, art museums, and so on.
So you pick out the rap grants, and make fun-
But last year, the NEA funded MUCH more Chamber Music than Rap, and in the visual arts, things like Western Painter Alfred Jacob, who died in 1874, or Cezanne, or a show of Impressionism.

[GlennT]

But last year, the NEA funded MUCH more Chamber Music than Rap

SEE, an agenda! Funding chamber music is an attempt to sound the death-knell to the appreciation of classical music by selecting the most boring type possible!


You make some points worthy of a better than flippant response but I'm in a hurry, plus I've already spoken my 2 cents plus an additional 25, and add another 6 cents for inflation.

[StevenW]

Well, a governmental position for a secratary of arts seems rather silly to me, but I am in the market for a new hybrid kitten. My last one only got 3-4 meows per gallon of milk and barely a purr or two and what with milk costing twice what gas does and the obscene windfall dairy profits...

Maybe they need a hybrid kitten program first and then we can look at art and stuff.

[outsider]

Some states and municipalities have grants that require no accountability other than residence. Just send them pictures and a panel picks recipients.

SBIR's are a fantastic way to encorage small business. They are military grants given for innovation. Small Bussiness Innovative Reaserch grants. The govt. will set you up in a bussiness and provide office support. Just gotta have something good and more than aesthetic.

[evaldart]

Some states and municipalities have grants that require no accountability other than residence. Just send them pictures and a panel picks recipients.

SBIR's are a fantastic way to encorage small business. They are military grants given for innovation. Small Bussiness Innovative Reaserch grants. The govt. will set you up in a bussiness and provide office support. Just gotta have something good and more than aesthetic.


Yep, I've never won That Lotto, but in Massachusetts and New Jersey, as a state resident you can fill out 1 page of bio, six images and win up to 10, grand...for your art...justified however you wish to do so. I have many friends that have won this....Its a ten minute application. A real no brainer.

[Tired Iron]

where are the European members voices? I have heard that OUR great nation is one of the few that DOSEN"T pay artists a stipend to create art. Is this true? Does Europe hail art as an avocation that should be compensated so artists can deliver the goods? Shouldn't the USA follow this idea to spur on more artwork? Glenn you undoubtly make too much money to recieve such a stipend so don't worry about it.

[Portoro]

In the UK we have an Arts minister. He/she plays a very prominent role in arts funding, and can be held to account publically when the government doesn't give the arts a fair deal. No arts minister, no government accountability. It's war out there - popular culture can stand on its own two feet. The ARTS need to be spread. To take Evaldart's line, the arts can save us. We need people to be employed to further the cause, to invite interest, to manage educational projects and pay for public art. Hey, chamber music: its subtle, Glenn, not boring. Funding spreads the subtlety.
Our largest publically funded arts body is 'The Arts Council of Great Britain'. Visit the website (there may be separate bodies for England, Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland). We also have other bodies, like 'Arts East', 'Arts South-West' that channel arts funding to local commmunities, and that includes offering help to deprived communities, including the disabled. Good stuff. We're civilised, this is what we do.

[anatomist1]

Actually chamber music is the most interesting form of "classical music". It's stripped down, and all about the basic compositional structures. I wouldn't say it's subtle. I'd say bold, raw. Symphonies, choruses, concertos, operas... they're awash in lots of frivolous coloration, duplication of voices... basically festooned with a lot of meaningless decoration. They are only more interesting in the same way that shiny objects are more interesting than non-shiny ones. Chamber music is where the meat is.

The idea that spending a pittance on government arts funding is the triumph of evil big government is barely even an opinion. More like a clumsy attempt to impose political ideology on yet another subject without actually bothering to learn anything about it, or do anything that remotely resembles actual thinking.

[Portoro]

Anatomist - yes, and you make the music sound really vibrant. On Saturday night my wife and I are in Cambridge UK to hear a new composition for church bells by a contemporary classical composer. He is using the bells of 5 churches in the centre of Cambridge, the idea being that the whole thing will cohere inn the minds and imaginations of the listeners in the town. This is also accompanied by a light show by a 'world renowned' light artist. All free obviously and all had to be funded (in this case by the university, I think). Funding is good.
There is also a modern art gallery in Cambridge - 'Kettles Yard' - no funding, no modern art here.
Managing a civilised culture is difficult. It's not just about building roads. Zimbabwe? - no arts minister there, naturally, since no-one in power cares and there is no-one to hold government to account. Get government TIED DOWN and committed to what we care about.

[GlennT]

o More like a clumsy attempt to impose political ideology on yet another subject without actually bothering to learn anything about it, or do anything that remotely resembles actual thinking.

Like when you were promoting the myth of "human-created global warming"?

P.S. Find me a piece of chamber music both as subtle and complex, weaving raw bold and ethereal together, as in the first movement of Mahler's 9th symphony. And if you think it has too many voices and colorations, please inform us of which ones to remove.

P.P.S. What is up with your psychology that makes you feel the need to mock the intelligence or thinking-skills of anyone you disagree with? Is that easier than discussing an issue? Would it make my point stronger if I concluded by saying to are an aggrievous moron? For example, on a different thread , rather than use evidence to support your position, you said my grasp of physics barely reached the highschool level, because that made you believe yourself so much smarter somehow. Whereas the actual fact is that I got an A in physics at the U. of M, had to take years of statics and dynamics in architectural school, and have designed dozens of offices and homes that gravity or poor design did not cause to tumble down. Alright, so you are a genius at oxy/acetylene welding, and you create skeletons. Does that then make you qualified to pass judgement on the intelligence of others?

[evaldart]

Having knowledge and appreciation for classical music does not make anyone any smarter or better than one who couldn't give a shit about it. In fact, any decent heavy metal guitarist is far more self-determined creatively than the automatons who play amongst the masses of their own chaired ilk in a concert hall. I am determined to make it through life without bothering with the "cultural" pretensions of classical music.

government in the Arts is boring...lets go off topic:D.

[Duck]

We're civilised

You’re joking,…right???

“civilizzzzed”……..
the UK had a 6% increase in abortions for 14 yr. olds.
Last year the religious Protestants and Catholics made up for 60% of the 1.2 million abortions in this country........


civilized = having an advanced or humane culture, society, etc.
...lol

[Portoro]

I agree that rock musicians will be more self-directed than musicians in orchestras. But whereas classical musicians tend to appreciate rock, I suspect that fewer rock musicians appreciate classical. The ones I know that do have done some good things – eg John Cale, formerly of The Velvet Underground. And Philip Glass, (classical minimalism) has been involved in some rock, crossing the boundary from the other side. It’s possibly good for us to open up as many neurone sequences (brain channels*) as we can. It may mean that we respond to the world with greater feeling and maybe understanding.
* Note pseudo-science here.

Duck - when I said 'we' I mean all of us guys 'n' gals. I'm Irish - hate the Brits myself...

[grommet]

You’re joking,…right???

“civilizzzzed”……..
the UK had a 6% increase in abortions for 14 yr. olds.
Last year the religious Protestants and Catholics made up for 60% of the 1.2 million abortions in this country........


civilized = having an advanced or humane culture, society, etc.
...lol

yes, they do in fact spell things differently over there. They're backward that way.:rolleyes:

The items you reference identify a gap in education for that particular group. Not so much to do with being civilized as to recognize reality. Your leap will land you in a puddle. If that's your goal for off-topic, go for it.

evaldart, I think I was off topic all along, just not getting anywhere...

[evaldart]

I wonder if there were "punk" composers 200 years ago. Little known rejects who forced the violin and harpsichord players to rape their instruments in the name of sonic revolt.? Too bad there can be no basement tapes.

[GlennT]

I am determined to make it through life without bothering with the "cultural" pretensions of classical music.


Nobody is asking you to particiapte in cultural pretensions, but if you let that hang you up you'll be missing out on a huge amount of really great, inspiring music, due to... (rebellious prentensions?)

[Ries]

Virtually every thread on this forum seems to degenerate into the same argument-

That is, "what I like is GOOD ART, and what I dont like is BAD".

Which is silly.

If there was an absolute standard for beauty, that was universally true, then every man on earth would want ONE woman, because she was the MOST beautiful. (except for those of us who wanted that one most good looking guy)

Of course, this is not true. Just like each of us finds different women attractive, each of us can like Chamber Music, or Heavy Metal, or Mahler's Symphonies, without the other stuff being BAD.

Anyway- most government arts organisations fund ALL kinds of Classical Music, I only used Chamber Music as an example, but Glenn jumped on it- why, I am not sure- maybe he thought my other arguments were sound enough that he had to find something to pick on. The NEA does not fund much Heavy Metal, I am pretty sure- that is a commercial art form (and I certainly believe it IS art) which finds its own funding in the marketplace.

The US government does fund pretty much all types of classical music, though, from Chamber Music, to Symphonies, to Opera, along with other types of less commercial music, including folk, ethnic, jazz, and so on.

And I think that is a good thing.

The commercial marketplace supports itself just fine- I have no problem finding the latest John Legend, or Toby Keith or Lil Wayne song, in fact, I work hard to avoid them.

However, there is a lot art, music, theater, dance, and other arts that are not so commercial. This is the work that the government often helps see the light of day. The strict right wing libertarian viewpoint is that since Classical Music is only something like 1% of the overall market, we should just allow it to die.
After all, if consumers wont spend money on it, it cant be worth anything, right?

Meanwhile, rap music has been number one in sales, radio play, awards one, and popularity for at least ten years now.

Now me, I take the radical viewpoint that the government should support some arts that are not the most popular, and most commercial.
Including, of course, non-commercial musics like classical and jazz, along with non-commercial arts of many types.

Any time a human being is involved, there is an "agenda".
But Government arts funding, far from enforcing an agenda, tends to be a levelling agent, funding a wide range of artworks and performances, that even out any market enforced distortions.
Many things you would never see in a major museum, if they only showed the stuff that sold lots of tickets, is supported by NEA grants- and that includes art that is so wide ranging there is something everyone here likes, and also something everyone here hates.

Which is as it should be.
If a museum isnt showing something you hate, they are doing it wrong.

[evaldart]

Ries, why do you always have to be right dead in the middle...championing the "good sense" aspects of everything. Always righteously accepting. Have you got any fire? Glenn damn sure does, and so does Chris. This is a discussion board made up of hopefully impassioned personalities...not fact-givers and mothering finger-wagging. Your "degenerating" is another man's flourishing, so its not wrong. Its in you, because I can feel it on the edges of your posts...you DO have your biases and prejudices...we all do.

[GlennT]

The core of my arguement has absolutely nothing to do with what I like or don't like in art. Most of those side issues were added for fun and color to this dull topic.

My issue is based on the idea of limiting the role of the federal government to the most basic elements as delineated back in the founding days of this country. What set this nation apart from all others in human history was the concept of limited government, whose main role was to protect and defend the rights of its citizens to pursue their dreams, learning from their failures or reaping the benefits of their success. And it was not a cold-hearted activity, as many charitable organizations, mostly but not all church sponsored, filled the gaps to help back on their feet (rather than to keep them dependant) those in need.

My issue is not to say, "Tom and Mary are getting a big slice of the pie, so I think I should get some too, especially since I just want an itsy bit of it."
My issue is rather to say " Eat your vegetables and bake your own pie if you want some. You'll grow stronger."

The side issue, away from the general principle of over-reaching government, is the cultural one. I would be interested to hear other people's opinions about who they think would make a great secretary of the arts, what that person's job should be, how much support staff should they need, how large of a budget, and what sort of oversight and review to see that the money is well spent. (How would that even be determined?) As a compromise position, I would definitely be willing to ceed a secretary of arts position if we eliminated the secretary of education position and put schools under more local control.

[grommet]

yeah, okay, I nomionate Ries' clone for God of the Arts, or whatever, precisely because he sits in the middle of the fence, prepared to share pie with whomever is cutting a flavor he appreciates in some way. yeah, it's opportunistic, but the goal is as much pie/ art as possible, so why limit?

If I was supportive of a dog-eat-dog world I'd go with Glenn. The church folk know all about manipulating things, so your concerns about an all inclusive government making agencies to help people function is just... funny.

[StevenW]

Hmm,... "Art Minister"... :rolleyes:

Hmm,... Chamber-Metal...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmDTO3XUGZ4&feature=related

Okay, I'll take the #2 biggie-size please. :)

[GlennT]

inclusive[/B] government making agencies to help people function is just... funny.

My vison is for a man-help-man world, not a dog-eat-dog world. My world vision also has corrective lenses to account for human imperfection. So, if I acknowledge that "church folk" know how to manipulate things, I don't just make a negative stereotype about "the church", I also acknowledge that they do much good, and so I encourage and support such efforts. A huge difference is that the work and involvement with a church is entirely voluntary, whereas the government has the power of law and force of arms to compell behavior. So, if you don't like what a particular church is doing, leave it and go to another or none. If you don't like what the government is doing, leave Europe and start an new nation conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition...oh yeah, we did that!

Likewise, despite the attempt of anatomist1 to make it seem as though I think of government as "evil", I actually analyze what is good and what is bad about the way government runs and react accordingly. Just like a church, the government is composed of people. Some people want to serve, others want to be served. Some people, when given power, either from church or state, use that power to further an agenda which may be entirely or mostly positive. Others use that power to manipulate and control people, or to enrich themselves.

I don't see the level of education in America having improved since the federal government took it upon themselves to serve that role. It would be instructive to compare what a highschool graduate needed to know 100 years or more ago versus today.

Most private schools, operating on a fraction of the public school budgets, have students who not only kick ass on test scores compared to public schools, but learn to problem solve and consider issues free from the ever-increasing indoctrination of "politically-correct" thinking that gets rammed into the curricula.

Liberalism, which seems to be what we are dealing with here, appeals to the emotions because of its "good intentions". So, start another government program based on good intentions, and it will continue to grow and evolve and become its own self-sustaining entity with little accountability for results. I prefer to go with what works.

[evaldart]

Damn Steven that was some "classical" that I could indeed get into...I remember Therion also from the nineties but havent found anything new by them in some time. Its so true that the skills and virtuosity often developed and displayed in genres other people might call "butt rock" exceeds in presence and potential many traditional classical instruments.

I vote for Cheese to run the Art politicking show, mainly because he's very evenly and widely aware of the "current". He, knows whats up right now...

[Ries]

Way back in the 1970's, I used to have a character I would do in public occasionally called "ArtGod". Dont have any pictures, but I would dress up pretty funny- I had a nice 2' diameter aluminum hat made from a streetlamp shade, among other things.
I had two rubber stamps-
"this is art"
and
"this is not art"

and I would make judgements, and stamp the item accordingly.
Did it at Bumbershoot, a big arts festival in Seattle, one year, hundreds of people would come up to me and ask for a judgement.

And I still have very strong opinions about what I, personally, like and dislike- but that has NOTHING to do with whether or not the US would benefit from having all EXISTING arts funding under one management, and whether we, as a nation, would benefit from a coherent national arts policy..

Oh, and Glenn- you are really going off the deep end, with that "government in schools" thing- before the US instituted government schooling, most people were illiterate. It wasnt a choice of government schools or private schools, it was government schools, or NO schools, and child labor.

The US public schools made us the country we are today.

But if you prefer, there are still some countries you could move to that dont have public schools- lovely places like the Congo or Bangladesh, with near universal illiteracy rates, and, as a bonus, in the Congo, no taxes, no state funded arts, no public health programs, no meddling whatsoever in your life-heck, no LAWS!
just make sure you have more bullets than the other guy, and you can do WHATEVER you want.

[GlennT]

Oh, and Glenn- you are really going off the deep end, with that "government in schools" thing- before the US instituted government schooling, most people were illiterate. It wasnt a choice of government schools or private schools, it was government schools, or NO schools, and child labor.

The US public schools made us the country we are today.



Where did you get this notion? The literacy rate among white americans in 1840 was 97%, which is much higher than current rates. Did you ever read the letters written during the civil war by it's common soliders? Far more eloquent than today, even prior to text messaging.

Use your federally mandated education to read carefully, please. I was not addressing public schools per se, but FEDERAL control of schools. I did not mean that point to be so subtle as to escape notice. Before the mid-20th century we were working with state directed public schools with no federal involvement.

Now that perhaps that has been cleared up, I can respond to the rest of the post. The "ArtGod" role is hilarious. Thanks for sharing that.

Can you further explain what a "coherent national arts policy" would be? I know the Soviet Union had something like that, which was good and bad. It was a good way to keep alive the tradition and good training of figurative art and impressionist use of color. It was bad in that the end product was directed towards producing government-sponsored propoganda. But of course, that could never happen here, since our good intentions and benevolence would prevent it.

[Ries]

The school attendance rate in the 1800's was usually below 50%, and that was, as you point out, for white males.

The federal education act was passed in 1870.

Railing against it is kind of like railing against income taxes- you may be right, you may be wrong, but your side lost that fight over 100 years ago.

As for a coherent national arts policy- well, thats when you hire smart people, and they look at ALL the spending, requests for spending, needs, and wants of all the arts in the country, and then they assign priorities, and act accordingly.

Most countries do this.
Not only with the arts, but most countries, especially places like Japan or Germany, have national industrial policies as well.

The alternative is not NO spending- much as you would like that, its just not possible. The alternative is disorganized, wasteful, erratic spending with no overall coordination.

[StevenW]

The alternative is disorganized, wasteful, erratic spending with no overall coordination.


You mean like Congress? :)

[GlennT]

At least, with Ries plan, the bridge to nowhere gets some decorative railings.

[grommet]

At least, with Ries plan, the bridge to nowhere gets some decorative railings.

No, bad location. Now if you put it in a better spot & still have it go nowhere, then we're talkin'. It won't need decoration. You can bring your own doilies if it makes you feel better.


(Ries, I figured you were side-saddle on the fence or there'd be evidence of a most painful wedgie.)

[Duck]

Your leap will land you in a puddle. If that's your goal for off-topic, go for it.

...

Nahh…..I’m good
But I like this new phrase..”We’re Civilized”
…go ahead a say it out loud………..

...alright now say it again really really loud but not quite like yelling or screaming….and then tell me you didn’t bust a gut laughing……..:D

[grommet]

Nahh…..I’m good
But I like this new phrase..”We’re Civilized”
…go ahead a say it out loud………..

...alright now say it again really really loud but not quite like yelling or screaming….and then tell me you didn’t bust a gut laughing……..:D

Nahh... I'm good.
It seems like something you'd say while standing around a keg with you buddies. More fun in a group.
The things that amuse me personally just make others veer away, like making "snow angels" in the grass in summer.

[craigktx]

Nahh... I'm good. . More fun in a group.
The things that amuse me personally just make others veer away, like making "snow angels" in the grass in summer.

do you frame your shorts and call it art?
thats where the money would go.
Nahh... i'm good.

[grommet]

No, ya frame the chunk of grass, or put the sod all around a piece of foam insulstion, put a mess o' small tent stakes through & stand the whole shmear up... Or you can just enjoy the impression in front of the fancy place whose lawn you plopped down upon.

[Tired Iron]

Grommet , I'll bet you're a hoot to hang out with!

[grommet]

Well, that's certainly a matter of opinion, but thanks.:)

[GlennT]

I'd say a hoot and a holler!

[Ries]

I been framing my shorts and calling it art for years now.
Yet to get any government money for it, but I have sold quite a bit of "undergarment art" in galleries.

[grommet]

Interesting commentary with the "dainties.
Looks like you have all the fancy machines too...

[evaldart]

So THATS where you keep your sense of humor, Ries...in your drawers.:D See, the shiny metal guys can get away with this type of thing. No one wants to imagine the rendered tighty-whiteys of our "natural", "raw" or "earthy" members.

[Ries]

Tighty Whiteys-

Interesting you should mention that.
I first did Tighty Whitey's in 1996, when Bob Dole ran against Bill Clinton.
I did a one night only show, in a bar, called "Boxers or Briefs", based, of course, on the question Clinton was asked on MTV.

In it, I imagined ol Bob Dole as the tighty Whitey guy, while modern smoother mover bill was the boxer guy. Did a whole series of metal boxers and briefs, painted and hung on the wall, as well as boxer and brief bar stools.

Then, more recently, I did current politicians as superheros- and what makes you more super than when you wear your tighty whiteys over the top of your clothes? Saw a punk band do that once, back in about 77, and they totally ruled.

I actually have a show opening on the 5th of Feb, lots of tighty whitey imagery in that one, as well.

[GlennT]

With this brief resume, Ries has sewn together a case for making the shorts list of Secretary of Arts contenders.

[StevenW]

Ries, if you think you can usurp me for the ugliest art of the year award you are sadly mistaken,.. And you are a brigand and a pirate and a scoundrel.

I challenge you and anyone else to an ugly art duel. Ugly art to be auctioned off this summer and all proceeds donated to a puppy shelter.

[Ries]

Watch who you call ugly!

I even sells some of that stuff... :D

[evaldart]

you mean Arts not SUPPOSED to be ugly!?...aw, hell. Damn perfessers.

[donnadodsonarti]

I agree it's risky to appoint a Secretary of the Arts, but maybe they have more power than an educational role but less power than a censorship role. For example, in Massachusetts, Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D-MA), for co-founded the Senate Cultural Caucus to show his longtime support for arts and culture in Massachusetts. So maybe there role is like a figure head to bring awareness and dialogue to the arts across all disciplines.

I think one argument that is going to have to be made is how this is different than the NEA, i.e. why is more support for the arts needed and while I agree with education and advocacy I think what happened with the NEA individual grants is that funding on an individual level dried up and individual artists were forced to make marketable work to get funds. I think the key language point should be that the secretary of the arts promote dialogue in the arts and visibility/access to all art disciplines such as music, poetry, performance, theater, dance, visual arts, etc... There remains the thornier issue of how to handle fields such as craft, design and applied arts in a national arts dialogue. At least in Massachusetts, sports, tourism and the arts are all lumped together as 'culture'

I like the idea of an opposing viewpoints series of art shows to promote dialogue amongst people who have different opinions (art=culture=relevancy)

If you support all the arts, and all secondary fields like design, crafts, architecture, advertising, documentaries etc.. you wind up with an initiative to support a creative economy initiative across all fields that promote creative work which is another model Massachusetts is promoting right now. With the help of the NEA who has earmarked money for all fields of design, because there is more potential for job creation, entrepreneurship and start-ups in design fields, New England is vying to receive these dollars to support web design, advertising, publishing jobs that indirectly benefit artists and art centers. I'm still curious if the Secretary for the Arts (which in my mind does not mean only visual arts) would somehow be appointed to run the NEA in other words, the change may not be as significant as anticipated. The other model Massachusetts is spearheading is a joint committee on Art, Tourism and Culture in the State House where public and private partnerships are sought to support the arts and culture in MA. One example is Main Street initiative which was a project of the National Trust for Historic preservation but the City of Boston adopted it as a model and money is used to preserve the architectural heritage of a main street and businesses are encouraged to work together to promote the identity of their city. In my neighborhood, they started a 1st Thursday event where musicians, artists, poets, all turn out for performances and shows along the main street and the cafes give out free coffee, and snacks. I think it's a danger to think too narrowly about the potential Secretary of the Arts position or the Arts in general because so many other fields support the arts and touch our lives as artists indirectly.

I think what the arts need at a national level is re-branding in the eyes of the public who think that national support for the arts=mapplethorpe, piss christ and karen finlay. I think at a national level, you're going to have to get a direction or an administrative charge from Obama to steer the national arts policy in a certain direction. It should involve the NEA who tends to fund organizations as well as the SBA who tends to understand entrepreneurs and perhaps the needs of the individual artist and lobbying groups like the American for the Arts, for starters. If you want the Secretary of the Arts to promote the fine arts, or the highest attainment in the arts, look at what fields the pulitzer and macarthur recognize, and set a course in that direction.

[craigktx]

Ries, if you think you can usurp me for the ugliest art of the year award you are sadly mistaken,.. And you are a brigand and a pirate and a scoundrel.

I challenge you and anyone else to an ugly art duel. Ugly art to be auctioned off this summer and all proceeds donated to a puppy shelter.

i can do ugly.:D

maybe some shorts full of splinters, iam wearing a pair right now.:eek:

you should see the tie dye look they have from the sawdust that mixed with
the sweat.
Key West mahogany makes the best tie dye.:D

i have a ugly steam bent piece if you want to see it.

[StevenW]

Some people's ugly is other people's beautiful. I think a lot of "ugly" work is much more interesting than "pretty" work.. Sure, let's see.

RE: Ted Kennedy,... Let's just make O.J. Simpson the NFL commissioner while we're at it.. :rolleyes:

[Portoro]

Donna - post 56. Excellent post. It reminds me that the old bohemianism just won't do these days (although if you are one, then enjoy!). These kinds of projects protect the arts, and advance their significance.

[Mr. Malloy]

Donna- excellent points! I wish to intitute something like that "first Thursday" you spoke of. But hey, your in BOSTON ! a very liberal, progressive, multi-cultured town. I love Boston grew up in Southern Maine, and know all about small, white towns without culture or awareness. Now I live in a town comparable to Portsmouth, NH, but not as rich. Hows life in Boston?

[donnadodsonarti]

Thanks for your feedback. Life in Boston is good. I joined the Boston Sculptors Gallery this year and will have a solo show next year, www.bostonsculptors.com. Boston has the advantage of the State Capital being in the city and there are some good people in the state house so there is the opportunity for involvement in the gallery scene and art market of the city as well as the legislative action and politics of the art world. Check out the new initiative, Boston World Partnerships, http://bostonworldpartnerships.com/ that is coming to town...

[donnadodsonarti]

Alot of communities that I know of have a gallery night, for example,

Providence, Rhode Island has 3rd Thursdays, http://www.gallerynight.info/ It is a public/private partnership between city, state & corporate sponsors.

Concord, New Hampshire has ART CONCORD which is a multi-group opening of Concord Art Galleries open on the same night for everyone’s enjoyment, under the sponsorship of the Greater Concord Chamber of Commerce, for information: www.concordnhchamber.com

Boston has 1st Fridays in the gallery district, SoWA (South of Washington St) when all the galleries coordinate their opening receptions from 6-8p. Since most galleries rent from the same landlord, the management company plays a role in coordinating communication, parking and logistics at the event.

Western Ave Studios in Lowell, Massachusetts has FIRST SATURDAYS Open Studios - First Saturday of every month, noon to 5pm - Western Avenue Studios opens its doors to the public. Come browse the latest works by our artists!http://www.westernavenuestudios.com/

And most communities have an annual Open Studios weekend, it seems.

Good luck getting something started in your community!

[donnadodsonarti]

And Hudson Art Galleries, in Hudson, New York, http://www.hudsonartgalleries.com/ coordinates gallery openings on one Saturday of the month, I think. They are known for having some of the best restaurants in the region so the foot traffic it generates benefits the Main Street businesses as well as the galleries.

[StevenW]

[quote=donnadodsonarti;71780]I think what the arts need at a national level is re-branding in the eyes of the public who think that national support for the arts=mapplethorpe, piss christ and karen finlay. I think at a national level, you're going to have to get a direction or an administrative charge from Obama to steer the national arts policy in a certain direction. [quote]


See, now you're talking censorship and the mere fact that a piss christ can exist tells me there is no censorship at present and I for one would like to see it continue on that way.. I'm not disagreeing with you in that the U.S. could use a good "re-brand" to bring legitimacy to Art, but that is another story entirely. What concerns me, even disgusts me is that governments have already done these things across the globe and the results were all the same: Saddam statues in the end, one and all... I am all in favor of excess monies being given out as grants to Artists and such with reasonable proposals for public works and the like. The problem is that in Mass (I grew up there) and in other "progressive" states like California (where I also lived), the government workforce exceeds the civilian one and there is no excess money as there should be. In fact these models are failing, these two states are bankrupt, the populations flee like locusts to other states and wreck them too. Keep the govt. away from Art and all will be well. Involve them, and pretty soon we'll see towns riddled with little Stalins. For the first time in history the U.S. govt. is larger than the U.S. manufacturing and construction workforces combined. 1 in 14 workers is a govt. one. 1 in 15 is a manufacturer or construction worker. Just who do they think they get their paycheck from?

[Zophia]

Yes, I think there needs to be redirections to art. The higher universities and arts management put out art for artists. Everything can be art, we can dig holes in the ground and call it art. Which i think is one side of the spectrum but we need art for the people. Art for coal miners art for children. Art that reaches the heart of this country. I do not think art needs to be abstaract and esoteric to be art. Art is thought provoking and/ beautiful and many other things: it represents our culture and generation.

I do not agree with censorship, but i think artists should have ethics. People hurt dogs and call it art. I guess you can call it what you want the community of artists is responsible for putting down "unethical" projects. What ethics should we follow? It is for us to decide. For me: don't hurt animals, do not mass produce, know your medium and do not hurt people.

Art can be many things, it would be nice if "Sculpture" mag. would show more than just art for artists. That would be a good start!


Z

[GlennT]

Long before we need a Secretary of Arts, we need a Secretarty of Stopping Government From Spending Borrowed and Stolen Money Like Drunken Sailors. *


* with apologies to sailors, who even if drunk are more fiscally responsible and certainly contribute more to the world than most politicians.

[grommet]

Art can be many things, it would be nice if "Sculpture" mag. would show more than just art for artists. That would be a good start!

Let's see who is buying the magazine most likely... ?
Those other folks who just like to look at sculpture... well let's hope they're frequenting the galleries, museums & studio crawls, buying books & catalogues of things they like, and hopefully a few sculptures too.
It's sorta like a trade magazine. I don't expect the ones I get to cater to my interests, they have their own agenda.