Critiquing: a slippery road

[evaldart]

It might be the case that a professor mostly (perhaps ONLY) has exchange with students (or other professors). And students are not likely to bother with pertinent criticism between each other...unprovoked and administered. So in this way the professor, one who is constantly engaging in "criticism" is not often advantaging solidified aesthetically motivated folk; too safe in academia.
I have been a professor (mercenary, but quite consistent) for many many years and it is a TOTALLY different conversation that happens in the construct of a classroom than what might happen with three or four significant local jokals drinking beer with you in your studio or in the corner of a gallery at an opening.
So the two formats (crit-sigma-xi and crit-le-boheme) are not related. I would say that those who are only practiced in classroom oriented discussion might be quite at a loss for words in the heat of the (some individual's) studio or one-person-show (unless of course they are all professors. ) It s not the case that the academics have at all thresholded their approach to thinking about art...the same as it is that the unstudied have not done so either.

"Celebrations and Attacks" was that the famous Hughes book? What a great title. And there's really not much good in between.

Anyhow, it is not necessarily relevant to bring student/teacher stuff into one's arguments about the nature of "real" criticism. Because that (hopefully vital and vigorous) stuff happened quite BEFORE the art really starts.

BTW, go to art school.

[GlennT]

Originally Posted by Kilkenny

Of course, professional artists (most of whom are teaching in the colleges anyway)

I know England is the land of people who wear funny hats, but I did not know that most professional artists there also wore the hat of college teacher. There must either be: (a) Quite a lot of colleges in England (b) Not very many professional artists there (c) A high mortality rate among artistsin England, particularly as the transition from amateur to professional.

I know a lot of professional artists in America and I have to really concentrate to pick out among them a small handful that also may happen to be college professors. The better ones generally don't have time to commit to teaching in college, but instead may teach workshops or privately as their schedule permits.

[Kilkenny]

Well, where do I start? Tracey Emin has just become the Professor of Drawing at the RA; good old Anthony Caro spent many years teaching throughout his life (I have an acquaintance who was taught by him). I could name 25 current internationally recognised British artists who have a college profile as a teacher, and there are thousands more working in schools and colleges throughout the country. In the UK teaching is an acknowledged professional career route, even for wealthy internationally renowned artists. And they are right to do so. It hones your own practice and theory, and kids DO bring something fresh to your outlook. It is also being part of a professional community art practitioners. The staff room is a vibrant creative place, and these artists recognise the value of teaching. They also recognise that they are part of an art community and wish to maintain a place in it in the widest sense.

Have a look at the wealth of professionally renowned teachers who taught Damien Hirst at Goldsmiths (who, by the way, wouldn't even employ anyone who wasn't at the top of his/her profession). Thousands and thousands of jobs here for artists. In the UK teaching is NOT just for those who cannot DO. The doers are also part of this wonderful profession.

I should add that in Italy where I work (in Carrara) the artists working at the studio I go to also work at the university art college in Carrara as well. This is standard at practice for professionals.

I note that Evaldart has also got a few prejudices about 'professors' on display here, too. Academia is not a safe profession for limited and distanced individuals, a sort of leech-like sub-community living off the 'real' artists. At the college I worked at as a literature teacher ALL the artists in the art department were practicising professionals. Don't create a divide between academia and art that doesn't exist.

[mantrid]

Originally Posted by Kilkenny

Well, where do I start? Tracey Emin has just become the Professor of Drawing at the RA; good old Anthony Caro spent many years teaching throughout his life (I have an acquaintance who was taught by him). I could name 25 current internationally recognised British artists who have a college profile as a teacher, and there are thousands more working in schools and colleges throughout the country.

Could it be that the 25 are in thse positions because of their fame. You can name 25 well known professional artists. These well known artists are a tiny proportion of all professional artists. Most are not working in school and colleges.

Im an ex teacher and I have not known an art teacher that is also a professional artist, the teaching workload would hinder this.

[evaldart]

I agree K, by the great duality that is possible for us all, that professors are included amongst the "practicing" masses that make up a given currency of an art "scene". But what I am sayi is that there is a necessary dislocation that must be undertaken between ANY "profession" (even an art related one) and personal aesthetic advancement. Plumber, clerk or teacher; it (the profession) likely shouldnt bother with the best of the art thoughts.

[Kilkenny]

Yes, E. I agree about the dislocation you speak of.

Mandrid - take the Art and Design colleges across the UK (say, 200?). Who do you think are teaching students the skills there? Teaching load? That varies according to your contract, and, in any case, you get long holidays.....

I'm just surprised that many people don't have my experience - of the role of actual artists in education. In modern artists i see very flexible, well educated people who work the art scene in its many aspects.

[mantrid]

Originally Posted by Kilkenny

Mandrid - take the Art and Design colleges across the UK (say, 200?). Who do you think are teaching students the skills there? Teaching load? That varies according to your contract, and, in any case, you get long holidays.....

You mentioned schools too that would be thousands
Art teachers in schools are generally art college graduates who then do teacher training to become art teachers when they realise that making a living from art is more difficult than getting a 'real' job

Long holidays true but much of which is used for school work and even if it wasnt its hardly enough time to be a successful artist with all the business related aspects not to mention producing the actual art.

Id be interested to know where you are getting your statistics from.

[Kilkenny]

Originally Posted by mantrid

Art teachers in schools are generally art college graduates who then do teacher training to become art teachers when they realise that making a living from art is more difficult than getting a 'real' job.

So where do you get these stats from?

This notion you have that teachers are failed artists - that they become teachers when they can't be artists - This is the usual prejudice we hear about teachers. I've known around 500 teachers (secondary; Sixth Form; college; university) in my own career, and I can't think of any who took up teaching for this kind of reason. Hey, some people actually LIKE the idea of training kids! And the fact that they can stay involved in the art scene (which you seem to think EXCLUDES schools) by doing so is an aspect of their love of art and what it means. Teachers in schools will also often teach at a higher level as well, at British 'A' level standard, and hence continue to have a wider intellectual interest in their subject and develop their knowledge of art periods, artists and art history. Great people! Great activity!

I'm personally committed to a wide vision of the art scene. It's not just about artists in their studios. It's a vast scene, that includes everything from the design industry to art administrators and gallery assistants. And great teachers are part of that. And, by the way, they are training up your clients...

[evaldart]

Wrong Mantrid, none of the profs I ever have ever worked alongside or studied under ever did any "teacher training". This is not middle school. College art teachers teach from foundations of accrued skill, technical knowledge and from strong individual and individualized aesthetic ideals (ideals probably too historically determined if you ask me). But yes, it is a vocation, and all vocations contain everything from hero down to slacker.

I would say, K, that being committed to any art scene is not unlike being committed (or beholden) to an institution. And that would be the OTHER you bothering with that; not the you that worries of volume, mass, line contour and surface whilst bringing about and building an experience that improves YOU yourself better than it could improve anyone else. I smell trouble with this "Darwinistic consciousness" thing that you mentioned is growing on you. Lets have some more of that; it sounds like a worthy thing to dig into.

[grommet]

opinion is totally worthless except when it's of value, a small portion of the time. I value what images my work evokes for people, but few are willing to offer that vulnerable face, or it does nothing for them at all, preferring to tell me what I should do, or what they'd like to see. That tells me a lot about THEM, and nothing about my work. If the person giving the critique is a target audience, bearing insight on what will sell, their opinion matters. I have no interest in the opinions of people who figure when I'm more mature I'll be able to participate in their world. Not interested in your world, if running your self-defined gauntlet is the price. Being mature is identifying your own challenges and navigating them -repeatedly if necessary -to your own satisfaction.And I'm progressing to small museum group exhibitions, so I guess it's working.Hi, Nelson

[Nelson]

Originally Posted by grommet

opinion is totally worthless except when it's of value, a small portion of the time. I value what images my work evokes for people, but few are willing to offer that vulnerable face, or it does nothing for them at all, preferring to tell me what I should do, or what they'd like to see. That tells me a lot about THEM, and nothing about my work. If the person giving the critique is a target audience, bearing insight on what will sell, their opinion matters. I have no interest in the opinions of people who figure when I'm more mature I'll be able to participate in their world. Not interested in your world, if running your self-defined gauntlet is the price. Being mature is identifying your own challenges and navigating them -repeatedly if necessary -to your own satisfaction.And I'm progressing to small museum group exhibitions, so I guess it's working.Hi, Nelson

Hi Ann, nice to see you back as you`re a great asset to the forum (just an opinion lol).
Since critiquing is a slippery road, and safe for qualified runners, I`m stating: it`s just a comment or an opinion in every intervention from now on, just to play it safe and don`t hurt anyone`s feelings. Sure Grommet, so when would you consider an opinion to be of value? Some folks like me can come up with seemingly valid comments, points according to well versed critics, but other times our opinions appear worthless. Should those folks just restrain themselves from proceeding beyond the usual "how nice" type of comment or what ? or perhpas at our level it`s more important how we say it than what we actually say ?

[evaldart]

Hi Ann, nice to see you back as you`re a great asset to the forum (just an opinion lol).
Since critiquing is a slippery road, and safe for qulified runners, I`m stating: it`s just a comment or an opinion in every intervention from now on, just to play it safe and don`t hurt anyone`s feelings. Sure Grommet, so when would you consider an opinion to be of value? Some folks like me can come up with seemingly valid comments, points according to well versed critics, but other times our opinions appear worthless. Should those folks just restrain themselves from proceeding beyond the usual "how nice" type of comment or what ? or perhpas at our level it`s more important how we say it than what we actually say ?

Nelson, any "value" that there might be in an exchange must be pulled out of it with pressed thinking. Since meaning/understanding/revelation/illumination are EARNED things when it comes to the greater matters of a dialogue. ALL involved, present participants - leaders and followers alike - must endure the adventure of originality to reap any available rewards from other folks' words; words of BOTH natures... condemning or celebrating alike (and whatever is in between).
"Criticism" is either nothing or it is constructive, if it is ever DEstructive then there likely already was a predisposition-to-failure afflicting. Self-doubt and its sort.

[rika]

Originally Posted by grommet

If the person giving the critique is a target audience, bearing insight on what will sell, their opinion matters.

Grommet, good to see you back, your opinion can be very insightful/thoughtful and helpful whenever you want it to be...

I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say here though. You go on talking about sales, so I figure by "target audience" you mean your buyers. Your buyers like what they see in your art, that's why they pay for it, right? Unless you're a commercial artist, you decide what you make, and you influence THEM through the summary of your creativity, the artwork itself, not the other way around. A funny thing that happened more than once with me, as soon as the potential buyer gets serious about a piece, they are trying to tell me how to CHANGE the piece to their liking. I just patiently explain to them that what they perceive as a mistake is purposely made that way to express my idea, my vision. They accept it every time, because they have to. Afterall it's your version of a dream made into reality that they want to buy into. Not vice versa.

[grommet]

unlike the pearl, sometimes we get to choose our own irritants or inspirations

[Duck]

Originally Posted by grommet

unlike the pearl, sometimes we get to choose our own irritants or inspirations

....hi grommet

[Nelson]

KILKENNY:
Thanks for input, you definitely are a patient good teacher.

EVALDART:
Thanks for your concise and pertinent input too.

[grommet]

Rika, People just want what they want, and sometimes if they ask, they get it. others are just used to demanding, and bully their way through life. Draw lines where you need to, for self preservation, not because you're too cool to do commissioned work. They're all just mental puzzles of some sort.............................................. ..........................Nelson... I suppose it's always important how we say it.. or not, it depends on the person. It depends how much you wish to engage other people, will you meet them half way in how you phrase your thoughts, or do you figure it's their problem if they don't like what you say??? But everyone's view is valid because it represents a segment of the audience. Whether or not the artist is seeking to reach that segment is a question, but hopefully exchanges are respectful........................................ ..................................To quiet onlookers:I've found the exchanges and comments here to be bullish too frequently, and was informed it was my problem. You can fit in just by sticking around, but just know that the weak will be killed and eaten. It's their way here. This will offend some, but better that another person know that this is not the place to expose any vulnerability. It's a microcosm of the outside world, with the same cruelties and kindnesses. you can avoid bullies more easily on the street, but not in the art world.

[tonofelephant]

To quiet onlookers:I've found the exchanges and comments here to be bullish too frequently, and was informed it was my problem. You can fit in just by sticking around, but just know that the weak will be killed and eaten. It's their way here. This will offend some, but better that another person know that this is not the place to expose any vulnerability. It's a microcosm of the outside world, with the same cruelties and kindnesses. you can avoid bullies more easily on the street, but not in the art world.

Quite agree Grommet. I chalk the bullies up to the fact that they cannot go & argue with the spouse, yell at the kids or kick the dog - those actions have real reprocussions. Here anyone can argue with no moderator to squelch their uncivilities or moderate comments. But that is how this board is - like it or lump it.

Opinion/critique/blather all boils down to is the person spouting it worthy of your life energy? Usually not. Only the opinion of your buying audience or your friends & family matters, not the self-appointed tastemakers. But you knew that anyway. The only real valuable help in the forum is in the help sections dealing with construction/media problems.

Hope you have a great day Grommet. I am going to have a wonderful day of rasping & sanding the latest sculpture. Am looking forward to finishing it & putting it out in the Public Art arena soon.

Carl

[evaldart]

Only the opinion of your buying audience or your friends & family matters

Well if thats who you look to for "criticism" Carl then you'll certainly not hear anything you wouldnt want to hear; and so it will not be criticism at all. The whole point of creative discourse is to have exchange with equally vitalized creative folk who do NOT insult you with phoney (polite) or irrelevant encouragement. If you respect the mind of the person celebrating or condemning you, then you will be improved (even if you hate them, their impact will improve you, quite against your will). If you do NOT respect that particular mind, then fine...we're all different...we all are uniquely fortified and uniquely fragile. No one is bigger or stronger than anyone else...yet in art we are not equals, we are simply all separate incidences of creative potential. Different, never better or worse, never weaker or stronger...just different. But Nature has decided that we must learn from each other or perish. So we must choose our "battles" and ignore the other things. If you fold up in the face of discourse then it is simply one more opportunity for improvement that will be missed. Thats all.

[Nelson]

Eval,

This is a typical example, how someone foredeeming a group of an audience, ends up proceeding in a questionable fashion, not much different than what he/she views as not worthwhile... but as blunt as this respectful comment may be, you have put it magisterially. And for some reason, I remembered this quote:

" One`s mind is like a parachute, if it doesn`t open up is good for nothing"

[evaldart]

Nelson, every thought and opinion has potential. Though not always impactful or useful or effective to EVERYONE, if the effort was made to venture a solid response, it will either haunt or taunt or quite propel...or it will fall dead. But then there is the dormancy of critical exchange. How many times have you recalled past words, like you just did there, that you had previously (THOUGHT that you had) dismissed. Me, many times...and I have even gone back and thanked them later. Because of the state of flux that keeps originality always slightly out of reach, we cannot stop for air. Some folks though, only want the air...and miss the flux. If there is a man-made cure for a sedentary and frightened mind...it is criticism, for sure.
He that last line kinda rhymes, maybe I shoulda been a poet.

[Nelson]

Originally Posted by evaldart

Nelson, every thought and opinion has potential. Though not always impactful or useful or effective to EVERYONE, if the effort was made to venture a solid response, it will either haunt or taunt or quite propel...or it will fall dead. But then there is the dormancy of critical exchange. How many times have you recalled past words, like you just did there, that you had previously (THOUGHT that you had) dismissed. Me, many times...and I have even gone back and thanked them later. Because of the state of flux that keeps originality always slightly out of reach, we cannot stop for air. Some folks though, only want the air...and miss the flux. If there is a man-made cure for a sedentary and frightened mind...it is criticism, for sure.
He that last line kinda rhymes, maybe I shoulda been a poet.

Definitely E, I must admit it too. Though critical exchange is the prime goal, meaningful comments and worthless opinions manage to sneak in.

[evaldart]

Originally Posted by Nelson

Definitely E, I must admit it too. Though critical exchange is the prime goal, meaningful comments and worthless opinions manage to sneak in.

Sometimes there were things that I thought was a worthless opinion that turned out later, upon ME catching up, to be a meaningful comment. Its a lucky thing I bothered to save it (I'm kind of a hoarder that way...comes from collecting so much junk for art).

[tonofelephant]

Quote:



Only the opinion of your buying audience or your friends & family matters

Well if thats who you look to for "criticism" Carl then you'll certainly not hear anything you wouldnt want to hear; and so it will not be criticism at all. The whole point of creative discourse is to have exchange with equally vitalized creative folk who do NOT insult you with phoney (polite) or irrelevant encouragement. If you respect the mind of the person celebrating or condemning you, then you will be improved (even if you hate them, their impact will improve you, quite against your will). If you do NOT respect that particular mind, then fine...we're all different...we all are uniquely fortified and uniquely fragile. No one is bigger or stronger than anyone else...yet in art we are not equals, we are simply all separate incidences of creative potential. Different, never better or worse, never weaker or stronger...just different. But Nature has decided that we must learn from each other or perish. So we must choose our "battles" and ignore the other things. If you fold up in the face of discourse then it is simply one more opportunity for improvement that will be missed. Thats all.

I agree Evald, if the critical audience you seek out is milktoast. However, like Glenn, I fell into a relationship with an outspoken woman with a great design eye. She is the one that gives me instant feedback on sculpture. Another friend a metal mangler like yourself, who lives near, gives me useful input. Both are very direct when talking about design. I enjoy getting & giving help to them also.

Any input into an artwork should be trenchant but not so much to hurt or crush feelings. Input/criticism/critique/opinion, in my experience, usually is used as a blunt object to bludgeon the victim and make the person spouting it feel superior - an unhealthy power situation. That is why I choose the people carefully to give me advice. These people are are very blunt but know how to give advice. I always prefer blunt people with character; after talking with them, you completely understand their point but do not feel like you have been whipped like many critics feel is their responsibility to do.

As to client input, I think it is invaluable - especially since I eat what I kill. Have no other source of income, so I cannot afford to make pieces that take up valuable shop time & stone for a "personal" project. Many of the college art instructors I studied with made fanciful designs that had passable designs & were totally unsellable. That was fine for them, & a useful way to waste their spare time when they were not working at the university. Not much good for someone who has a focus on selling & moving work.

My life is centered around making my brain & hands make a living for me, just like yours. We choose different paths to make our living. Our overheads & needs are different. But we do agree that input is essential to make sure that you do not become stagnant.

Besides, to do what we do means we possess a certain amount of ego. If we had no ego we would be crawling from critic to critic mutilating our work to suit the latest talking head critic. I don't think that describes most of the people here. Most people here need a little input from time to time & get it from their own Board of Advisors.

Carl

[rika]

How interesting what spills to the surface...how different we are in receiving critique, advice, opinion about our work. The hardest thing seems to be to separate the criticisim of the work from the criticism of the person who made the object. Yet this separation, this severing of the umbilical cord has to be done for the sake of one's perpetual advancement in creative thought and perception that always precedes the creative process.

But...I happened to come across this, and it is also true:“Maybe the critics are right, but what am I supposed to do about it — stop painting, change my work completely? I go back into the studio, and there I am at the easel again. I enjoy what I’m doing and feel good working. Other thoughts are just crowded out." LeRoy Neiman

How do we sort it all out? It seems to me it is a balancing act of taking mental notes, recalling, then erasing the mental notes and forgetting them, but recalling the erased, forgotten mental notes again-- at the RIGHT TIME.