Sculpture Community - Sculpture.net  

Go Back  Sculpture Community - Sculpture.net > Sculpture Roundtable Discussions > Figurative Sculpture
User Name
Password
Home Sculpture Community Photo Gallery ISC Sculpture.org Register FAQ Members List Search New posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-26-2011, 02:36 PM
Mikko Mikko is offline
Level 2 user
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Westerville, Ohio USA
Posts: 14
Gallery commissions for bronze figures

I have a 24" bronze dancer in a local gallery marked at $2,900. They have sold quite a number of my ceramic sculptures since opening last October at a 50/50 split, and I have been pleased and maintain a good relationship with them. They are wanting to pay me 60% and keep 40% on this bronze piece (after I explained what it costs to do bronze) when it sells. I did the math, and after mold and foundry costs (mold cost is divided by half the number in edition) found that my profit would only be $383.10!! They would profit $2,516.90 from this sale. I had suggested that I get 2/3 and they get 1/3 on the sale of my bronzes. They are unwilling to budge due to their expenses, etc.

Can any of you share some experience or suggestions concerning gallery commissions on bronzes?

Thanks!
Mikko
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-26-2011, 08:38 PM
GlennT's Avatar
GlennT GlennT is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 4,213
Re: Gallery commissions for bronze figures

Understand that I speak from very limited gallery experience, as I entirely do commision work...

It is your sculpture. If you don't like their terms, you can withold the product. If they think they can make the sales, perhaps they might be more willing to budge if you call their bluff, after having diplomatically explained to them your reasons based on what you have stated here. Then again they may not, in as much is it sets a precedant for other artists.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-26-2011, 09:28 PM
Mack Mack is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: VA
Posts: 604
Re: Gallery commissions for bronze figures

60% to you and 40% to the gallery (mostly it's 50/ 50 even for bronze) is, as far as I know, the best deal you can get with a commercial gallery. You don't come out well on the first piece (mold expense etc.) but do quite well on the rest of the edition. That price seems a bit low for a bronze of that size and your edition size should be large enough so you are satisfied with your gallery arrangement.

Last edited by Mack : 04-27-2011 at 07:34 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-26-2011, 09:30 PM
cheesepaws's Avatar
cheesepaws cheesepaws is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,137
Re: Gallery commissions for bronze figures

60/40 is fair if you like them. However, if you are not happy with your profit margin with this particular sculpture - you need to simply charge more. Always figure out what YOU want to make first - then your gallery can double it (or whatever your ratio demands).

If the increased price means your gallery doesn't think it can sell - then they are not the right gallery for THAT work.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-27-2011, 03:13 PM
evaldart's Avatar
evaldart evaldart is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: easthampton, massachusetts
Posts: 5,637
Re: Gallery commissions for bronze figures

Right, that piece needs to sell for 4000 so everybody wins. That is not unusual for a bronze of that size.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-27-2011, 04:17 PM
Mack Mack is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: VA
Posts: 604
Re: Gallery commissions for bronze figures

Agree...$4000. is the right range for a bronze that size. Higher perhaps but not lower.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-27-2011, 06:48 PM
obseq's Avatar
obseq obseq is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,700
Re: Gallery commissions for bronze figures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikko View Post
They are wanting to pay me 60% and keep 40% on this bronze piece (after I explained what it costs to do bronze) when it sells. I did the math, and after mold and foundry costs (mold cost is divided by half the number in edition) found that my profit would only be $383.10!! They would profit $2,516.90 from this sale. I had suggested that I get 2/3 and they get 1/3 on the sale of my bronzes. They are unwilling to budge due to their expenses, etc.
If I'm reading this correctly, the gallery has already made a concession based on your initial explanation of your costs associated with bronze casting; I do find it hard to believe they were ignorant of the process/costs, unless they were just being daft, but that's another issue...

...SO it seems they did budge, and when you actually took a look at the hard numbers, you asked for more. While your not unjustified in wanting to be paid accordingly, you probably should have presented the numbers the first time when they ended up agreeing to the 60-40 split.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesepaws View Post
60/40 is fair if you like them. However, if you are not happy with your profit margin with this particular sculpture - you need to simply charge more. Always figure out what YOU want to make first - then your gallery can double it (or whatever your ratio demands).

If the increased price means your gallery doesn't think it can sell - then they are not the right gallery for THAT work.
CP is 100% correct. Charge more for your work if your profits aren't up to your expectations. I'd just take this as a learning experience for this piece...
Maybe you can revisit your split with the gallery on future bronze sculpture, and THEN if they are still unwilling to modify, look to another gallery while keeping your ceramic work with them.

Just make sure that if you're going to approach them on modifying the agreement, that you have itemized expenses on hand when explaining costs for the bronze work.
I wish you luck with this...It's a drag to find out you'll be coming up short.

Last edited by obseq : 04-27-2011 at 07:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-27-2011, 07:37 PM
Mack Mack is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: VA
Posts: 604
Re: Gallery commissions for bronze figures

I don't agree with the "itemized expenses" part..it's none of the gallery's business what the piece cost the artist to make.. The artist needs to say "how much do I want to make on this?" and give a retail price that corresponds, perhaps taking into consideration what similar size bronzes are selling for but not always. Sometimes a higher gallery retail price is more interesting to collectors than a lower...they all haggle anyway and a higher price gives the gallery some room to negociate.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-27-2011, 07:44 PM
obseq's Avatar
obseq obseq is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,700
Re: Gallery commissions for bronze figures

Okay, perhaps not "itemized" but something that can educate the gallery on the associated costs involved in bronze casting.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-28-2011, 07:11 AM
Mack Mack is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: VA
Posts: 604
Re: Gallery commissions for bronze figures

The 60/40 split is probably the best you are going to get. Many galleries have moved from there to 50/50 because they could and because they are hurting. I'd suggest that you base any future bronze prices based on what's out there in similar size work and quality. The amount of pieces you decide on for an edition size should be your choice, not the client's. Make your first piece(s) an artist proof and decide after that how many you'ld like to cast.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-29-2011, 08:08 PM
scrapartoz scrapartoz is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: oz
Posts: 459
Re: Gallery commissions for bronze figures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack View Post
The 60/40 split is probably the best you are going to get. Many galleries have moved from there to 50/50 because they could and because they are hurting. I'd suggest that you base any future bronze prices based on what's out there in similar size work and quality. The amount of pieces you decide on for an edition size should be your choice, not the client's. Make your first piece(s) an artist proof and decide after that how many you'ld like to cast.
hey Mack i found a Painting Gallery wanting to branch out into Sculpture. They want only 10% (is there alarm bells going off?) When you deliver your stuff is there a fixed time agreed on that if not sold you can repossess your goodies and look elsewhere? Is there a contract or some document used that
clearly states that you are the owner until sale day?
__________________
SCRAPARTOZ
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-29-2011, 09:10 PM
Mack Mack is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: VA
Posts: 604
Re: Gallery commissions for bronze figures

Hi Scrap,
Give them a price that you think the piece should bring. Great that they're only going to take 10%. Over here the galleries want to know that they can have the work for a determined amount of time and that you'll give them notice before pulling it (30 days or so). You never lose propriety over your work in a gallery, it's always yours and you are lending (consigning) it to them for a year or six months, etc. and renewing after that if you choose. A simple contract. Only way you get screwed is if they sell it and don't pay you or go out of business and take the artwork with them. Contact some of the painters and check out their experience. Did they get paid in a reasonable amount of time etc.?
So what piece are you consigning?
(P.S. Maybe 10% because they don't have a clue how to sell sculpture but so what?...put it in there and let the folks see it. Your stuff will sell itself! Good luck.)

Last edited by Mack : 04-29-2011 at 09:27 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-30-2011, 01:32 AM
scrapartoz scrapartoz is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: oz
Posts: 459
Re: Gallery commissions for bronze figures

Thanks for that helpful advice Mack. The person who runs the gallery is a 86 year old well known successful landscape painter who i gather is not a greedy man. He was impressed with the eagle i showed at a mountain sculpture show and put the offer to me. He wants a big one ( roo, dragon or eagle etc to catch the eye for possible future commissions ($4- 9 k )and a heap of $ 500- 1200 smaller insects and other critters to sell to the day trippers and resort guests. the gallery is in a high traffic ski crowd and wildlife enthusiast mountain lake region. lots of 'cashed up' successful folk there which is quite a contrast to my current ancestral digs. we can only hope and dream the boat will come in one day.
cheers
andrew
__________________
SCRAPARTOZ
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-30-2011, 07:23 AM
Scout's Avatar
Scout Scout is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: SW GA
Posts: 600
Re: Gallery commissions for bronze figures

Interesting thread. Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-30-2011, 09:22 AM
Mack Mack is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: VA
Posts: 604
Re: Gallery commissions for bronze figures

Scrap:
This sounds good to me...most galleries have a 'Consignment Agreement' form that lays out the basic terms. You're the 'consignor' and the gallery's the 'consignee'. It names you as 'Artist' and the title(s) of the work(s). It states the gallery price and the amount of that that the gallery will take as a commission.
It should also say how long after the sale you will be paid: 2 weeks,1 month etc. It might also stipulate an amount of time that you agree to leave the work in the gallery. Some galleries won't pay you for shipping expenses into the gallery but will if they have to return it to you. Depends on the gallery. Also the Consignment Agreement will state that the gallery is responsible for the care and safety of the artwork while they have it. That's pretty much it. Some galleries get carried away with the length of their agreements (lawyers) and some it's just a paragraph or two. Best of luck to you.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-30-2011, 12:56 PM
scrapartoz scrapartoz is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: oz
Posts: 459
Re: Gallery commissions for bronze figures

thanks mack !!!!
__________________
SCRAPARTOZ
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 05-02-2011, 09:45 PM
furby furby is offline
Level 9 user
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: australia
Posts: 286
Re: Gallery commissions for bronze figures

I did a deal with a gallery in sydney that the expenses are removed before the commission is calculated. This is a way to get round the fact galleries will *never* budge on percentages. Its 40% to the gallery & they'll never budge so be creative LOL.

cheers.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 05-02-2011, 09:51 PM
furby furby is offline
Level 9 user
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: australia
Posts: 286
Re: Gallery commissions for bronze figures

BTW Scrapartoz your weblink http://www.hereticpress.com/Dave/index.html seems to be busted somehow
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 05-03-2011, 04:10 AM
scrapartoz scrapartoz is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: oz
Posts: 459
Re: Gallery commissions for bronze figures

Quote:
Originally Posted by furby View Post
BTW Scrapartoz your weblink http://www.hereticpress.com/Dave/index.html seems to be busted somehow
thanks furby ill get on to it. i think the host has stopped hotlinking so if you google scrapartoz and follow the heretic press link itshould come up ok. thanks again i will try to have it fixed andrew
__________________
SCRAPARTOZ
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 05-03-2011, 07:15 AM
obseq's Avatar
obseq obseq is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,700
Re: Gallery commissions for bronze figures

Quote:
Originally Posted by scrapartoz View Post
...so if you google scrapartoz and follow the heretic press link itshould come up ok. thanks again i will try to have it fixed andrew
Apparently, my IP address was banned/denied access to the page. The google method didn't work for me either...
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 05-03-2011, 01:14 PM
scrapartoz scrapartoz is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: oz
Posts: 459
Re: Gallery commissions for bronze figures

Quote:
Originally Posted by obseq View Post
Apparently, my IP address was banned/denied access to the page. The google method didn't work for me either...

idont know whats happening with the site or why u cant access. have you somehow got yourself on a "spammers List?" I also cant make the link work myself when i click on the link on this site. i will make more enquiries. i just tried myself googling Scrapartoz and it worked fine. i ask why you are banned. Thank you for letting me know there was a problem. andrew
__________________
SCRAPARTOZ
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 05-03-2011, 01:23 PM
scrapartoz scrapartoz is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: oz
Posts: 459
Re: Gallery commissions for bronze figures

the link seems to be working now. its a shame i cant fix this crap with a sledgehammer!
__________________
SCRAPARTOZ
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 05-03-2011, 04:30 PM
Mack Mack is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: VA
Posts: 604
Re: Gallery commissions for bronze figures

I just get a big "Copyright" notice in red.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 05-03-2011, 05:53 PM
obseq's Avatar
obseq obseq is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,700
Re: Gallery commissions for bronze figures

Working for me now!
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 05-04-2011, 05:58 AM
scrapartoz scrapartoz is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: oz
Posts: 459
Re: Gallery commissions for bronze figures

my appologies MIKKO for this on your thread but need to sort it.
I have a letter from Tim who runs my site which might explain why some of you cant get to my website from link or other . Message follows:

"Sorry obseq, Mack and Furby, I run the scrapartoz site for Andrew, sorry I am so security orientated, but lots of hackers and spammers from Russia, Romania, Canada VIAGRA SPAMMERS not to mention Nigeria and China AND some USA IPs attack our site daily. Sorry guys for banning anyone, I am just being protective of copyright and the site, others take images and mis-use them to make money on google advertising, using stolen content,


A List of IPs recently denied access to scrapartoz and why they were excluded.
[Tue May 3 23:25:23 2011] [error] [client 91.201.66.6] client denied by server configuration: /hsphere/local/home/dogstar2/hereticpress.com/Dave/index.html
sbl.spamhaus.org has blacklisted this IP
[Tue May 3 07:09:30 2011] [error] [client 71.49.247.65] client denied by server configuration: /hsphere/local/home/dogstar2/hereticpress.com/Dave
zen.spamhaus.org has blacklisted this IP
[Mon May 2 22:24:07 2011] [error] [client 75.227.54.139] client denied by server configuration: /hsphere/local/home/dogstar2/hereticpress.com/Dave/index.html
zen.spamhaus.org has blacklisted this IP
[Tue May 3 01:03:14 2011] [error] [client 67.188.53.6] client denied by server configuration: /hsphere/local/home/dogstar2/hereticpress.com/Dave/index.html
zen.spamhaus.org has blacklisted this IP
[Tue May 3 06:22:49 2011] [error] [client 195.246.108.11] client denied by server configuration: /hsphere/local/home/dogstar2/hereticpress.com/Dave/StartH1C.jpg
Wrongly blacklisted by webmaster but server a source of hotlinking or spam. [Tue May 3 07:08:51 2011] [error] [client 71.49.247.65] client denied by server configuration: /hsphere/local/home/dogstar2/hereticpress.com/Dave/index.htmlzen.spamhaus.org has blacklisted this IP
[Tue May 3 10:21:01 2011] [error] [client 198.54.202.218] client denied by server configuration: /hsphere/local/home/dogstar2/hereticpress.com/Dave
Wrongly blacklisted by webmaster but server a source of hotlinking or spam.
[Tue May 3 16:01:49 2011] [error] [client 79.69.247.165] client denied by server configuration: /hsphere/local/home/dogstar2/hereticpress.com/Dave
zen.spamhaus.org has blacklisted this IP
[Mon May 2 22:10:40 2011] [error] [client 71.49.247.65] client denied by server configuration: /hsphere/local/home/dogstar2/hereticpress.com/Dave/index.html
zen.spamhaus.org has blacklisted this IP
[Mon May 2 22:24:07 2011] [error] [client 75.227.54.139] client denied by server configuration: /hsphere/local/home/dogstar2/hereticpress.com/Dave/index.html
zen.spamhaus.org has blacklisted this IP

Some of you guys might belong to one of these IPs, sorry there are reasons usually if I bam an IP or "dodgy" server, my job is like the gallery to make Andrew's work available, but also to protect and value it, the copyright ! Including moral rights of the artist to control how their work is displayed and used, I also believe in a contract that gives the artist at least 10% of any further sales, if a work appreciates in value, the artist gets nothing if the work they initially sold for $500, a few years later is valued at $20,000, so if resold later I believe in a clause on the original artist always getting something from their work appreciating in value.


Apologies from security for wrongly excluding anyone from Andrew's site, I Don't want to ban anyone! The opposite of what we want! But even with email address for Andrew hidden in Javascript, spammers (real people not bots) visit and send Andrew a dozen spam emails a day. if I have the site completely open, there would be hundreds of spam emails a day and hacking attempts would succeed. SO I am checking server logs for any denied access and will restore for you ASAP, but in doing so some "baddies" will also get in. Also :-) chuckle chuckle, when I registered on sculpture community and tried to post a reply to this thread so Andrew does not need a sledgehammer :-) I get this message "you do not have permission to access this page" lol :-)


Also, as a last resort, search for scrapartoz in google and select the cached version of the scrapartoz page, they are often reindexed quickly as they are always changing, being updated and improved with new works. Great work and support sculpture community :-)


Tim Anderson for scrapartoz.com
__________________
SCRAPARTOZ
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Sculpture Community, Sculpture.net
International Sculpture Center, Sculpture.org
vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Russ RuBert