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  #126  
Old 02-15-2007, 07:46 PM
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evaldart evaldart is offline
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Re: Is bodycasting really art?

I must say, waking up and strolling over to the studio everyday for a full day of MOLDMAKING sure doesn't sound too fun. And if it was 1876 I'd certainly be up for an illustrious career hammering on stone. God had not yet made the H-beam.
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  #127  
Old 02-16-2007, 08:15 AM
BobClyatt BobClyatt is offline
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Re: Is bodycasting really art?

If I'm wrong then show me the great numbers of accomplished figurative sculptors who have chosen to use body/life casting in place of their modeling ability. Heck, just tell me some life casting sculptors who have turned their casts into good sculpture. Hansen and De Andrea are excluded....Segal and Gormley too. They've already been mentioned and I'll even consent that they could, for the sake of argument, be considered "good" examples of the form.

[/quote]

Jason, admittedly it's a short list but here is one more person to add -- Nan Smith teaches at Univ Fla. and has done some intriguing work taking body casting to another level.

http://www.arts.ufl.edu/ART/ceramics...n%20Smith.html


Good points, too, about Form being the (or an important) defining dimension in sculpture. I need to keep adding to my understanding in that area and incorporating it into my work.
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  #128  
Old 02-21-2007, 12:55 AM
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JasonGillespie JasonGillespie is offline
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Re: Is bodycasting really art?

Bob,

I looked at Nan Smith's work and actually enjoyed aspects of it. There were parts that had a sense of delicacy and interior dialogue. She used those parts in a disjointed way that took the focus off of the illusion of reality and juxtapositioned it against the more symbolic forms. She seems to be thinking more about the overall compositions.
I still feel very aware that the figural aspects are too "real/photographic", but this seems mitigated by her ideas and overall treatment. To my way of thinking she would be more in line with those artists who are not trying to pawn their casts off as figurative work. (Gormley, Segal, Kiki Smith, etc...) Instead she seems to want the idea to be as important as the forms. This is far less a disturbing use of life/bodycasts.





Quote:
An artist uses their heart and genius to interpret and express something beyond the form.
Very, very true Glenn.
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  #129  
Old 02-21-2007, 11:16 AM
Tlouis Tlouis is offline
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Re: Is bodycasting really art?

For me, these pieces are as white and slick and utterly dead as dinner plates. No where is the 'artists' touch in evidence. They might as well have been made by a robot in a sterile and hermeticaly sealed chamber.

After viewing these so called sculptures, I looked at the work of Caro Sweet, a member whose birthday is today. Have a look. See the world of difference between the work of Ms. Smith and Caro Sweet.

Lou
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  #130  
Old 02-28-2007, 12:15 PM
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Re: Is bodycasting really art?

Quote:
For me, these pieces are as white and slick and utterly dead as dinner plates. No where is the 'artists' touch in evidence. They might as well have been made by a robot in a sterile and hermeticaly sealed chamber.
Tlouis,

I think that you have hit upon the point of her work....though you don't realize it...and ultimately don't like the result. (your perogative-no questions from this corner)
They aren't meant to be personal, they are objects..symbolic in nature and more akin to non-objective found object sculpture. That is why her use of these casts is less objectionable...at least to me. She isn't trying to give the impression she has handcrafted these images....therefore there is no "artist's touch"...it would run contrary to what I suspect is her intended goal.


Caro Sweet is not a life/bodycaster....I understand why you would like her work more. Though not a proponent of life/bodycasting...in this thread Nan Smith's work is worth considering apart from much of the life/bodycasting that goes on. At least that is my ultimate goal for starting this thread...to divise a way of distinguishing usages of a much abused technique...and to see whether or not it leads to art....if if so when?
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  #131  
Old 05-02-2007, 11:27 AM
Philip Hitchcoc Philip Hitchcoc is offline
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Re: Is bodycasting really art?

Dr Mr. Gillespie,
Regardless of your opinions of my work, you have pirated copyrighted images from my website and posted them on this site WITHOUT my permission. You are in violation of the rules of this site and U.S. Copyright laws. I am demanding that you CEASE AND DESIST. Remove the images you have posted immediately.

Philip Hitchcock
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  #132  
Old 05-02-2007, 02:37 PM
Roy W. Butler Roy W. Butler is offline
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Re: Is bodycasting really art?

Mr. Jason Gillespie

CC: Mr. Russ RuBert
http://www.sculpture.net contact of record

REF: USCT National Monument

· Sculpture Community - Sculpture.net - Is body casting really art?
It was Roy Butler's shameless use of the life casting technique to imitate ...
I post some images below. the standing soldier of Butler's life cast and some ...
http://www.sculpture.net/community/a...hp/t-2617.html - 204k - similar pages
Mr. Gillespie:

While routinely monitoring Google for my name and professional compositions, I noticed the link pasted above. After considerable searching I discovered numerous postings you authored and was appalled by the malicious, derogatory remarks made about my composition.

Granted everyone is entitled to their opinion about any given subject, but to broadcast vicious remarks publicly worldwide without thorough knowledge of the project requirements, subject, sculpting process or complete fabrication techniques, is another matter. Also to display photos of my work, as an example to substantiate defamation, that were copied and published without my permission from an authorized website, is in direct violation of United States Copyright Law.

Mr. Gillespie, you do not know me and quite apparently know nothing of my professional sculpting skills, regardless of whether my total body of work is created from scratch in clay, lifecast or any other medium or combination of mediums that I might choose to utilize. My long list of satisfied clients are the sole, end decision makers of whether my work is legitimate art, not you.

However, to state the facts on the USCT National Monument in question, I will tell you the entire sculpture, head to toe, is a composite of both fine art clay sculpting and lifecasting, as if it makes any difference to the final result. Due to the high level of detail I am renowned to obtain in some of my composite work, it is often very hard for the trained eye to tell where one technique stops and the other begins. You did not personally attend any of the numerous and lengthy committee meetings and you were not responsible for any decisions that were made involving this sculpture. Nor I doubt if you are aware the model, a highly renowned and dedicated USCT re-enactor, was chosen by the USCT committee to represent 2,133 colored Civil War solders which fought and died in the war and provided internment of honor in a cemetery owned and maintained by the National Cemetery Association of the United States Veterans Administration.

I would also like to make a comment on one other quite erroneous, uninformed quote from your lengthy list of postings…..”it looks like what it is..a model dressed up in a poorly made replica uniform in a pose that shows absolutely no thought towards composition....very sad that someone settled for such a poor memorial”. Mr. Gillespie, you have personally attacked an official USCT military protocal standard, faithfully reproduced as requested by the USCT historical committee. The pose has absolutely nothing to do with artistic pose composition, it has to do with official military protocal as directed by people with considerable more historical knowledge than you.


This sculpture and monument have been nationally recognized by numerous entities including the Tennessee Historical Commission, The State of Tennessee, read into the Congressional Record, archived by The Smithsonian, documented by the National Cemetery Association as a national historical monument and now owned by the United States Veterans Administration.

In reference to the fact that photographs which I originated and was authorized to originate on federal property and own the copyright thereof, have been used without my verbal or written permission; I request the following:

My original photographs and any derogatory reference to my name, sculpting abilities, professionalism and USCT be removed from the sculpture.net website immediately and not used for personal self-esteem achievement in the future regardless of the venue, or the violations will be directed to counsel and respective parties for further action. I also request sculpture.net have the Google link removed immediately.

I take this matter very seriously, both professionally and personally, therefore further expect a public written apology be made to me on the sculpture.net website by both parties, in relation to defamation of my professional abilities, respect to the USCT and allowing the material to continue on a monitored, public website.

Respectfully,



Roy W. Butler
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  #133  
Old 05-02-2007, 03:55 PM
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StevenW StevenW is offline
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Re: Is bodycasting really art?

Well,...Poop.
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  #134  
Old 05-02-2007, 06:09 PM
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Re: Is bodycasting really art?

Apparently, Mr. Butler assumes that his art is above criticism.
Even if that were true, his Gestapo-like reactions and threats are not.
Whatever dignity he thinks that he has earned by the recognition of his sculpture by the named organizations is lost here when attacking sincere commentary from fellow artists with demands for apologies or else he will go crying to the legal profession for help.

He defames Jason for using the criticism of his work for " personal self-esteem achievement ". I think someone else here has self-esteem issues. Most of us professional sculptors who have had our work praised and blamed on this site may not enjoy the negative comments, but take the good with the bad and try to learn from both. It is all part of a process known as personal growth. If we all ran to big-daddy law firm every time our egos were bruised, there would be an even greater imbalance of rich lawyers and poor sculptors than currently exists.
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  #135  
Old 05-02-2007, 06:43 PM
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StevenW StevenW is offline
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Re: Is bodycasting really art?

I concur with you GlennT... While I do side with the gentlemen that it is a copyright infringement to post images and would ask that the poster or moderator remove them and replace them with links to those images instead.

That said, I don't fault anyone for standing up for themselves and what they believe (even if what they believe somehow indicates that checkers is equal to or somehow superior to chess) and if it were my work on the prosecutors display table I would be hurt and stand up for myself too. In that regard there is no shame and in fact it displays a spirit to be admired and not belittled. I applaud all in this thread and fault none.

Finally, my personal view on this topic would echo that of Paul Morphy, "Checkers is for Tramps".
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  #136  
Old 05-02-2007, 07:22 PM
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obseq obseq is offline
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Exclamation Re: Is bodycasting really art?

Hi, Everyone,

While Jason's posting record and reputation as a valued contributor to the Community more than speaks for itself, perhaps it's best that we refrain from commenting any further on the matter for the time being.
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  #137  
Old 05-02-2007, 09:42 PM
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fritchie fritchie is offline
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Re: Is bodycasting really art?

Quote:
Originally Posted by obseq
Hi, Everyone,

While Jason's posting record and reputation as a valued contributor to the Community more than speaks for itself, perhaps it's best that we refrain from commenting any further on the matter for the time being.
Clearly I respect the reason for my co-moderator, Obseq's, request, but I have to express briefly my own approach to the situation. We've had discussion almost ad nauseum in the Community over copyright issues, and I think the most pertinent comment has been that copyright exists only to the extent it is defended in courts of law.

That said, our Constitution and its implementational laws and procedures ensure the useful, fertile, generative effect of free discourse, and that free discourse, in my understanding, has been ruled under law to include reasonable presentation of copyrighted material in an educational context without permission or even notification of the original source of the material. Laws on defamation I know little, but I expect they are subordinate to freedom of expression in public discourse. Neither Jason Gillespie nor Russ RuBert is profiting to any degree from their facilitating the discourse on sculpture here, so financial gain on their part is not an issue.

Having said my piece, I'll henceforth acquiesce in Obseq's plea.
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  #138  
Old 05-02-2007, 09:57 PM
Tlouis Tlouis is offline
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Thumbs down Re: Is bodycasting really art?

Hey, Butler!

Put a sock in it!
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  #139  
Old 05-03-2007, 02:58 AM
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Araich Araich is offline
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Post Re: Is bodycasting really art?

107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use
Quote:
"... the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies... or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment... scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright."
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ht...1_17_10_1.html


Freedom of Speech
Quote:
"As the Supreme Court again ruled in Gertz v. Robert Welch, Inc. (1974), opinions cannot be considered defamatory. It is thus permissible to suggest, for instance, that a lawyer is a bad one, but not permissible to declare that the lawyer is ignorant of the law: the former constitutes a statement of values, but the latter is a statement alleging a fact."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_A...private_action

Last edited by Araich : 05-03-2007 at 04:42 AM.
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  #140  
Old 05-03-2007, 08:43 AM
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Re: Is bodycasting really art?

THANKS

StevenW,
GlennT
obseq,
fritchie,
Tlouis,
and Ariach (for the quotes)

free speech remains so only by it's usage

my comments on the dishonesty of calling body casting "sculpture" would be even more derogatory than those of Jason Gillespie.
Beyond not wishing to associate with that sort of crook, I think that such claims show a belligerent lack of respect for, and ultimately insult and harm the real practitioners of the art.
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  #141  
Old 05-03-2007, 11:48 AM
Philip Hitchcoc Philip Hitchcoc is offline
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Re: Is bodycasting really art?

Once again, I would like my images removed from this site. You do not have permission to use them. I am not concerned with your opinions. Express whatever opinions you wish. I only want my images removed from this site.

Philip Hitchcock
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  #142  
Old 05-03-2007, 12:02 PM
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GlennT GlennT is offline
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Re: Is bodycasting really art?

Two major practioners of bodycasting are by their own actions making a strong case for answering the original question of this thread in the negative.
They don't seem to want images of their work displayed on a site dedicated to the discusion of art.
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  #143  
Old 05-03-2007, 12:41 PM
Tlouis Tlouis is offline
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Thumbs down Re: Is bodycasting really art?

I've said this 2 or 3 times before in these forums and I'll say it again. In my opinion, bodycasting is a shameful, even cowardly way of working and the end product IS NOT sculpture no matter how jazzed up it is or how pretentious its title.

Get off your high horse and get real!
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  #144  
Old 05-03-2007, 01:22 PM
Funes Funes is offline
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Re: Is bodycasting really art?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonGillespie
This in and of itself, I think, does not rise to the level of sculpture or art. A very good example of this type of sculptor is Marc Quinn with his "sculpture" of Alison Lapper in Trafalgar Square. Not only did he rely upon a bodycast of his subject as the positive for his work, he then had other artisans transfer and carve it in marble.
I hadn't heard that before - and I quite like the statue. However knowing that, if he's really has had that little input into the process has devalued the 'sculptor' in my mind.

Using a lifecast as the model for a work is no different from taking photos for reference for painting. However if the 'artist' has simply taken a lifecast, given it to other people and told them to make one the same but three times the size then the real artists are the ones that actually did the work to produce the final piece.

It's not even comparable to producing a maquette, going to a foundry and asking for one twenty foot high - or employing a team to aid in the hard work of reducing the bulk of several tonnes of stone. It's more like coming up with a rough essay plan then employing a ghostwriter to do the work - all the fame for little of the effort.

That said, I can't deny that the statue is a piece of sculpture it's just that the credit may have fallen on the wrong ground.
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  #145  
Old 05-03-2007, 03:23 PM
Philip Hitchcoc Philip Hitchcoc is offline
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Re: Is bodycasting really art?

Dear Ms. Hutchison,

I came upon a discussion of the validness of "lifecasting" or "bodycasting" on your website, http://www.sculpture.net/community. Member Jason Gillespie took copyrighted images from my web site and posted them in his comments. HE DID NOT HAVE MY PERMISSION TO USE THESE IMAGES AND IS IN VIOLATION OF COPYRIGHT LAW.

I have emailed the site's moderator, Russ RuBert and member Jason Gillespie and requested that the images be removed. Despite repeated emails to both men, the images have not been removed.

As stated in the attached copy(http://www.sculpture.org/PDFs/ISC_te...conditions.pdf) of your terms and conditions, is not the policy of ISC to use the intellectual property of someone else without his consent. I would like my images removed from http://www.sculpture.net/community forthwith.

Sincerely,
Philip Hitchcock
http://www.philiphitchcock.com
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  #146  
Old 05-03-2007, 03:37 PM
Philip Hitchcoc Philip Hitchcoc is offline
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Re: Is bodycasting really art?

Dear Russ,

Thank you for honoring my wishes. I would like you to know that I am a thick skinned individual and have heard before all this discussion about "Is bodycasting art?" I would have loved to have been asked "first" to have been involved, at which point I would have gladly submitted images for review by your forum.

The fact that I was criticized, and that some of your members are... well... opinionated, doesn't phase me. Everybody's a critic. Whatever you wanna' call it, I've been doing it, and teaching it for two decades and I've enjoyed commercial and critical success.

I just don't like people snatching my images. I realize that YOU didn't snatch them, but the problem fell on you as moderator to correct. Thanks again for taking care of this matter.

Very sincerely yours,

Philip Hitchcock
http://www.philiphitchcock.com
http://www.phdstl.com (phd gallery St. Louis, MO)
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  #147  
Old 05-03-2007, 06:52 PM
jssculptor jssculptor is offline
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Re: Is bodycasting really art?

Hi all,
My god what a thread, read quite a bit but phewwww. Jason...good on ya...agree with most of what I have read of you have said so far. Oh and Mr Hitchcoc...get of your high horse...I looked at your website, interesting! No it aint art, but guess it sells well, good luck, sell it as body casts, thats fine, it looks very professional, I hate it but so what...I hate lots of real art as well...thats life. Can't understand why you appear so upperty about negative thoughts about your industry and as to your images being here, as obviously none of your potential buyers would be looking at an art based site to find examples of your work. Cool it, shrug it off...get on with your business you are making me think that you actually care what people like us think about your work!
Good luck in the future, let this go...this site is probably not for you. Calm down. Count the dollars...have fun.

All the best, John

Mean't to add, I would like some of them dollars too LOL
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  #148  
Old 05-03-2007, 11:32 PM
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Re: Is bodycasting really art?

Ok, everyone calm down or I'll be forced to close this thread - that would be a shame as there are many good issues raised.

I was emailed directly from the artists involved so I removed the photos.

They do have a point that images were taken from their own websites and used here. Who actually did the photography? This is a bit different than taking a picture yourself of art in a public space as compared to ripping off someone else's photo from their own website that they took or paid someone to take.

We all have to develop thick skin as artists. Sometimes an example helps to clarify a point, but at what expense?

Obviously, I would prefer that folks keep opinions and discussions civil on the forum.

So please - just give a link when trying to illustrate a point rather than using someone's else's photos from their website.

And please keep discussions civil, on topic, and without personal attacks. We will all get more out of this if we can keep it friendly.
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  #149  
Old 05-04-2007, 11:57 AM
Philip Hitchcoc Philip Hitchcoc is offline
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Re: Is bodycasting really art?

Dear Sculpture.net community,

I’ve had it with the nasty personal attacks on me, my colleagues, and now even those who would collect my work. Russ, you are a gentleman and in my next life, I will try to match your example. But for now, I feel I must respond.

I never posted in this forum before this unprovoked pummeling. I didn’t set myself up for ridicule. And I don’t mind criticism of my work. But, criticism moved way past my work and I was personally rebuked. This forum quickly deteriorated into drive-by blogging and schadenfreude.

And most of this criticism has come from middle-aged men, so failed in their life’s pursuits, that they retreat to the security of academia during a time which should be their “prime earning years.” They hide anonymously behind monitors and keyboards and call me a coward. They are unsuccessful men with questionable talent on whom, Starbuck's depends to brew their espressos...

And THESE are the the men who will define “art” for me? Please. Don't quit your day jobs.

Philip Hitchcock
http://www.philiphitchcock.com
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  #150  
Old 05-04-2007, 01:08 PM
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StevenW StevenW is offline
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Re: Is bodycasting really art?

Dear Philip,

While googling around the net, I was astonished to find my 10 inch erect penis duplicated on one of your casts: http://www.philiphitchcock.com/eroticism17.html

I demand that you remove my penis and apologize to it immediately.

Seriously; I can fathom your anger in this discussion, but to turn around and insult me/us/them only invites further degradation. The authenticity police are not lost on sculpture or bodycasting alone and why I turned to the analogy of Chess and Checkers. It's been around as long as mankind has been creating Art (or creating anything) in whatever form and in the end it just is what it is. When Photoshop first made its appearence, photographers and painters and illustrators of all magnitude blasted it as cheap, cheating/hack work and the debate still rages in 2D/3D computer generated art and the use of "premade" content vs. "homemade". I'd like to think that everyone should be able to pursue happiness in whatever form they choose and allow the market to decide what is "authentic" and what is not. On the flipside of the idea that bodycasting is not Art with a capitol "A", there exist collectors and purchasers of the work and it is really up to them to determine what is worthy and what is not. I think it would be insulting to my clientelle to suppose that they are so stupid that I would have to somehow protect them from buying fakes or forgeries. Great points all and thanks for a good thread.

Back to my failed and miserable chess playing life, I drink 7-Eleven coffee btw, I can't afford the good stuff or even pronounce the names.

Take care,

Steven
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