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  #126  
Old 02-20-2009, 08:57 AM
mountshang mountshang is offline
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Re: David

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Originally Posted by GlennT View Post
Before youse guys tried to confuse the issue, (except e gets to it in the previous post) I thought the story of David and Goliath was about how a person who lets God be the doer within them, rather than the human ego, can triumph over seemingly incredible odds.

Glenn, which of the David statues do you think best makes that point?

Donatello ? Michelangelo ? someone else ?
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  #127  
Old 02-20-2009, 10:08 AM
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Re: David

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Originally Posted by mountshang View Post
Glenn, which of the David statues do you think best makes that point?

Donatello ? Michelangelo ? someone else ?
As I said early on this post, none of the ones I have seen seem to do the job, they have various merits as works of art and studies of most else about the story but lack getting to the essence of the soul of David.

There is a Marble statue of David by Donatello, much different than his gay-looking bronze with the flippant hat. The pose is a bit awkward but that sort of adds, along with the expression on the face, to the sense of David as having accomplished something beyond his human capablilities. It may or may not be a great work of art, but it is a better David than most in setting the right mood.

As a work of art, I like the Mercie's David the best, and as capturing the action I like Bernini's best, and for historical impact and overall cool, I like Michelangelo's best.
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  #128  
Old 02-20-2009, 02:53 PM
mountshang mountshang is offline
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Re: David

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Originally Posted by GlennT View Post
As I said early on this post, none of the ones I have seen seem to do the job, they have various merits as works of art and studies of most else about the story but lack getting to the essence of the soul of David.
.

Glenn, have you ever seen sculpture "get to the essence" of any other Biblical miracle? Jonah and Whale ? Raising of Lazarus ? Moses and the Red Sea ? Daniel in the Lions' Den ? etc.
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  #129  
Old 02-20-2009, 03:41 PM
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Re: David

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Originally Posted by mountshang View Post
Glenn, have you ever seen sculpture "get to the essence" of any other Biblical miracle? Jonah and Whale ? Raising of Lazarus ? Moses and the Red Sea ? Daniel in the Lions' Den ? etc.
I wouldn't be looking for a sculpture to tackle the miracle as an event so much as creating a penetrating read of the soul and psychology of the individuals involved. Benini's "Esctasy of Saint Teresa" or his "Habbakuk and the Angel" actually do both rather nicely.
Michelangelo's "Moses" is a powerful character study which I am content to look upon as a seemingly accurate Moses depiction in a way that I have not found to be the case with any David sculpture.
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  #130  
Old 02-20-2009, 03:52 PM
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Re: David

That's a good question Mountshang, sorry to jump in, but before I forget what I'm thinking: I'd think that they all "got the essence" when they were made and that today it's impossible for us to project our own perceptions on them in the same way.. Kind of a master of the obvious observation on my part, but I'm always trying to remind myself of this.. When I thought about your question, the only works I saw as being true to their essence were things like the crucifiction and that's probably only because there's only so many ways you can hang a man on a cross to begin with.

Great thoughts and images you stirred up and I looked everywhere to try and find something in the way you were refering to without much luck..

Glenn, I think it's interesting that you like Mercie's as well. I always saw it as plain old good quality sculpture and was drawn to it from the get go, but I never framed it in terms of it's "artness" (problem with all those damned narratives is they get in the way of a proper viewing) and never compared it to Michelangelo's in the way you are and now that I think about it, I think you're prolly right. Mike's is far more penetrating, but not very arty in comparison, in that light Mike's is almost toonish.
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  #131  
Old 02-20-2009, 04:08 PM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: David

The only thing I've ever seen that sticks in my head as conveying a sense of its subject was actually a flatty. It was by a nun who was dying of cancer. She dealt with her pain by drawing biblical figures in moments she could relate to. Real life experience trumps a story every time.
(Sort of like writers being told to write about what they know.)
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  #132  
Old 02-20-2009, 09:35 PM
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Re: David

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Nah – let’s not blame natural selection for the choices we make. And as for ‘you girls designed us to fight’ – its only morons who need to fight. Us intelligent guys don’t need to do that, and I hope most artists can be included in that. Fighting is how dumb people manage their relationship with others (of course, if you are one of those dumb guys you’ll not get any of this), and at a political level, the worst of it is psychosis not Darwinism. Which is why Glenn may be right (see above) to emphasise other things that the story is doing.
when those ants will not stop bitting someone has to say no.
nothing moronic about that.
sometimes stop is enough but if its not, i can make them stop.
i do not stay home or am i afraid of the dark either.
i have a long list of thing i do not fear.
iam a nice person too.
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  #133  
Old 02-20-2009, 09:47 PM
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Re: David

To me:
The story of "David's" battle with Goliath
had to do with the power of lateral thinking
The "giant" was expecting David to come at him with sword and shield
while david stood off at a distance, and felled his foe with a well aimed stone
then used the (perhaps only stunned) giants own sword to cut off his head.

cunning versus strength
shades of Odysseus (from 1 0r 2 centuries earlier)
echoes in Henry V's Welsh longbowmen at Agincourt
and, Mohamed Ali's rope-a-dope

the thoughtful approach, then
would best be exemplified by Michelangelo's David

..................
Mercie's david has a sword that belongs to a different time period
for weapons apropos to 1000bc, see:
http://www.abu.nb.ca/ecm/photo/lsword5.gif
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  #134  
Old 02-21-2009, 01:24 AM
grhb grhb is offline
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Re: David

What about disposing of the current Davids and conjuring up new ones 'cause isn't the meaning of all the archetypes a little suspect in a post-post modernist world? It's like the Goya portraits of the Spanish royal family. Today we see the sniveling insensitivity and ennui and haughtiness on the faces of the characters. But they didn't, else Goya would have spent most of his time in jail. They celebrated those portraits of ugly children......

if we're going to make meaning, why not make new meaning(overachievers can download Blender and do the 3d modeling, I'm going to just think about it):

Archipenko's David-- head like a horse out of guernica--bronze

Louise Nevelson's David--is that a crate?

David Smith's David--

Brancusi's David

You name it.
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  #135  
Old 02-21-2009, 03:59 AM
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Aaron Schroeder Aaron Schroeder is offline
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Re: David

David started the arms race. After his story was told, it was understood that logistics and ballastics are all that matters. Now we have nuclear submarines and intercontinental missiles. A timeless story between the nerds and the jocks. Will it ever end ?

Until all the bears, lions, tigers ( aliens ? ) and other man eaters are extinct ......a human equivalant is a neccassary evil. People are hardwired for violence, that's never going to change. Sculpture, sport, culture........all just a way to keep the killing instinct sharp during peaceful times.

We all love and want peace/piece .....but Man/Woman will always strive to have the last say in all matters concerning life and death. We only make exceptions for imaginary and mythological superiors.

When threatened every human goes into hyper creative mode, we must fight !!! The fighting spirit is what unites us !!! Any lasting peace will come from a recognition of that fact. Hence Polite-talks.

The story of David is still highly relevant, he's every guy/gal with a low-tech gun that works. Everybody has to respect/fear everybody. It's the slings and arrows that keep us all civil.

Man is the ultimate monster, would you have it any other way ? Tell your kids about " David ". Piss him off and he'll bring you down just like goliath. We're all one and the same.
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  #136  
Old 02-21-2009, 08:08 AM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: David

Aaron, I disagree on so many levels. The survival instinct is necessaril there, but you lost me after that. Your declarations are the result of defeat and insufficient use of creative magic. use your words and brain power. We know they're there.
PS- I fight my own bears and lions-- I can climb a tree higher than both and live to see another day.
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  #137  
Old 02-21-2009, 09:21 AM
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Re: David

Going up a tree is the last thing you want to do if a lion or bear is after you, they climb better than we do. They can out run, out swim and out climb us, but their weakness is chasing a biped down a slope. So, if it ever does happen and there is steep terrain nearby then run straight down and don't stop for a mile or more. If not, play dead and if he tries to eat you anyway then you might as well go down swinging. Michelangelo's David had this mindset, he was grim and determined to go down swinging and didn't rely on the tactical advantage of a missile, it was just a very lucky shot. That aside and recognizing that metal will be better suited to indicate the tactical or strategic position as opposed to the detailed facial one, I vote for a Mercie-like head or some other indicator to suggest triumph.. As you said before, steel doesn't do a very good furrowed brow.
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  #138  
Old 02-21-2009, 11:39 AM
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Re: David

Edsel is the ultimate ford
"M" is the ultimate string theory
level 3 is the ultimate dimension
YHWH is the ultimate god
Quote:
Man is the ultimate monster
is, of course, the ultimate joke

the only true ultimate is that there is no ultimate
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  #139  
Old 02-21-2009, 11:53 AM
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Re: David

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the only true ultimate is that there is no ultimate
Well that's a pretty damned ultimate notion if you ask me.


And yes, by all means,.. "conjure up" new David's, very good.

My final word on him and the narrative is that unlike Ulysses, Hercules, Samson, Beowulf, etc.. who were all pure-bred natural born heroes in the classical sense, David was the every-day hero. The Joe the plumber kind, (I suppose I could have found a better example, but it was convenient) just a dork propelled to momentary greatness by his surroundings and not because he himself was great. The lesson to be learned by David is that at any moment, any one of us could be a hero, even those of us who would never dream or dare consider themselves such.. And perhaps the final lesson, as Sculptor alluded to is that when God (the fates or pure coincidence, whatever your belief's) say's it's your turn up to bat, you'd better be ready to use your wits..

Last edited by StevenW : 02-21-2009 at 12:17 PM.
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  #140  
Old 02-21-2009, 01:20 PM
mountshang mountshang is offline
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Re: David

Interesting - that no one here has yet to show us any sculpture that "gets to the essence" of any Biblical miracle. Of Glenn's two examples, Saint Theresa is, of course, not biblical, and nothing miraculous happened to Habbakuk except in Bernini's statue. Perhaps such content is beyond the scope of sculpture -- though I do think sculpture often does a great job of showing ideal human types (Christ, Mary, Buddha etc)

Anyway -- here's two I can think of: (by Verocchio and from Asia Minor, 3rd C.)

(BTW -- the Jonah is from the Cleveland Museum. It's not currently on display -- and their website will not show a larger picture - though, for $30 they'll mail you an 8X10 glossy. Is that really how a major public art museum should act ?)
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  #141  
Old 02-21-2009, 02:00 PM
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Re: David

Here is my choice of the world's best sculpture depicting a miracle. In fact, the carving of it seems like a miracle as well. Bernini's Apollo and Daphne.
I realize that this is a Greek miracle, not a biblical miracle, but I think God and miracles have been around in other areas besides those mentioned in the bible. My story isn't in the bible either, but I seem to have experienced a number of miracles, besides the miracle of waking up each day to a new dawn full of hope and opportunity!
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  #142  
Old 02-21-2009, 03:14 PM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: David

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Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
Going up a tree is the last thing you want to do if a lion or bear is after you, they climb better than we do. They can out run, out swim and out climb us, but their weakness is chasing a biped down a slope. So, if it ever does happen and there is steep terrain nearby then run straight down and don't stop for a mile or more. If not, play dead and if he tries to eat you anyway then you might as well go down swinging. Michelangelo's David had this mindset, he was grim and determined to go down swinging and didn't rely on the tactical advantage of a missile, it was just a very lucky shot. That aside and recognizing that metal will be better suited to indicate the tactical or strategic position as opposed to the detailed facial one, I vote for a Mercie-like head or some other indicator to suggest triumph.. As you said before, steel doesn't do a very good furrowed brow.
Not that I was actually talking about "bears and lions", but thanks for the tip.
I bet you could do a furrowed brow with metal if you tried.

glad it works for you, Glenn.
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  #143  
Old 04-03-2009, 04:32 AM
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Re: David

i love Michelangelo`s David, the shear scale just blows you away really, on the other hand perhaps that`s a bad thing....
maybe a great stance for David would be the moment he severs the head and lifts it up in triumph by Goliaths hair, with such a large head he might be straining to lift it, you can see both the effort and the triumph etched in his face, the huge sword in his other hand resting on the earth because it`s too heavy to keep in the air for long, every sinew and muscle is taught and bursting with the adrenaline of killing the monster, the head dripping blood as it`s lifted....
bit bloody i guess but different, come to think of it that might make an interesting figure to do myself

kris
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  #144  
Old 05-26-2009, 11:18 AM
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Re: David

So this is "Giant Killer" at his public debut. Tale of the tape: 11' 9" x 5' x 5', 2200lbs.

There were no takers this time...which means I'll be getting to know him a bit.

The weeds are high in the boneyard these days. Perhaps I'll switch him on and make him work.
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  #145  
Old 05-26-2009, 11:33 AM
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Re: David

The propeller beanie is too funny!
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  #146  
Old 05-26-2009, 12:02 PM
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Re: David

Brilliant, I hope he finds a good home.
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  #147  
Old 05-26-2009, 12:28 PM
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jOe~ jOe~ is offline
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Re: David

He is alive! Great gesture. Best figurative work I've seen in a while.
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  #148  
Old 05-26-2009, 02:07 PM
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The Forge The Forge is offline
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Wink Re: David

Do yourself a favor and find another name. Why be compared to that awe inspiring figure?
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  #149  
Old 05-26-2009, 03:21 PM
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Re: David

I couldnt care less about any name, anybody's comparison nor any "awe". Its only important that every creative effort reach an elevated "presence" and actuality as a result of maximal entangling with process, medium and event.
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  #150  
Old 05-26-2009, 05:59 PM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: David

Sorry, I can't help thinking if he were only buffed up a little...
then he'd find a home much faster.
You definitely found his softer side in the gesture. maybe the soft part is in his head, I'm not sure. Maybe the beanie copter is a ruse for luring bad guys... and maybe he just wanted to patst him on the head.... maybe ...
cool.
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