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  #26  
Old 10-11-2004, 10:57 PM
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Re: Too mach balanced too mach control

I don't think computer technology will prove itself as the foundation to a revolutionary art-movement.

I see it as simply an enabler. Dynamically, art consists of mark-making in space, so an idea should and will exist regardless of what tool is available.
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  #27  
Old 10-12-2004, 07:55 AM
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Smile Re: Too mach balanced too mach control

quote Rod",,,craft serves art absolutely, and in Robert's case, craft serves it well." end quote

Rod

Thank you, Sir. Even Picasso once said that there was only a smal part of his work that was "art".

Robert
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  #28  
Old 10-12-2004, 09:18 AM
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Re: Too mach balanced too mach control

Hi, First of all, I love ALL the thoughtful posts in this thread, it shows the diversity and intelligence and wide range of people who have joined this site and contribute to it.
As far as Picasso is concerned, he was a fantastic realist painter early in his career and ALWAYS kept humanity present in ALL his work. He hated non-objective work, hated Pollock, etc. He did realistic painting while in his TEENAGE years that was, although not breaking any new ground, quite well done, and I don't mean well done for a teenager. What the hell do you think cubism is, if not breaking new ground in realistic art and giving us a new way of seeing that got us out from under the domination of renaissance perspective! He was an innovator par excellence and we are still under his influence.
Have a nice day,
Jeff
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  #29  
Old 10-12-2004, 11:56 AM
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Re: Too mach balanced too mach control

The best insight I found into Cubism is found in T.J. Clark’s “Farewell to an Idea: Episodes in a History of Modernism”. With help from this author my ability to visually read and appreciate a cubist painting is much improved. Clark’s interesting thesis about Cubism is that it proposes a completely different way of presenting the world. If we assume two point perspective to be a system, then cubism is another system altogether. It’s an exciting proposal, though the fact that Cubism has remained an early 20th century art movement and not a universal method seems to undermine Clark’s thesis.

Picasso was something of a free agent who reinvented himself over and over again.
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  #30  
Old 10-12-2004, 12:50 PM
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Re: Too mach balanced too mach control

Jeff – For MacIntyre start with a Google search and when you’re ready for a book “Whose Justice Which Rationality” is the one that’s given me the most mileage.

The reason I’m interested in tradition vs. tradition is because it seems to allow a strong and convincing way to work without feeling compelled to conform to whatever the tastemakers in the biggest art market near you are calling “hot”.

Modernism gained the rhetorical high ground first by claiming a radical break with tradition was necessary and later that the groundwork for modernism could be found in the Western tradition, e.g. seeing the abstraction in Renaissance paintings. Greenburg was claiming a historic and necessary inevitability towards abstraction. Tough luck if you didn’t agree. The modernism argument was compelling for a long time but has since collapsed. So now we’re left with an ordinary capitalism that can’t seem to support more than frivolity and pornography. It’s a new gallery season and all the chatter is about the latest hot new fad, like the latest line of blue jeans or new car models.

A tradition is an argument extended over time.
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  #31  
Old 10-12-2004, 03:22 PM
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Re: Too mach balanced too mach control

Some of you brought up Cubism as an example which is in line with my point. Earlier in the thread, Fritchie mentioned that computer technology solves the problem of contending with gravity.

"My principal take on the computer is that it frees a sculptor from gravity, and if you like, even material."

If, in theory, something like Cubism or Futurism bypasses the problem of gravity, then why should a bit of technology be better equipped to lay the foundation for a new artistic movement? Essentially, a computer presents a linear/direct construct of an idea, while "limiting" disciplines appear circuitous in their offering of a new language by which we are to understand the same idea.
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  #32  
Old 10-12-2004, 04:49 PM
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Re: Too mach balanced too mach control

Are we not just talking about methodolgy, be it technical or theoretical? Methodolgy that exists simply to support the complex visual expression of an artist. That the artist remains primary?

I personally feel it is doubtful that a particular genre or class of art is better than another, or that the choice of one over another precludes greatness. We're simply not able to foresee the confluence of styles and perception that will produce important art.

The best we can do is to take an enquiring mind to the workbench, follow our hearts and not the fashion of the moment, work hard, and hope like hell for a discerning audience.
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  #33  
Old 10-12-2004, 05:19 PM
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Re: Too mach balanced too mach control

Quote Jeff"...if not breaking new ground in realistic art and giving us a new way of seeing that got us out from under the domination of renaissance perspective! He was an innovator par excellence and we are still under his influence." end quote.

There was in Avignon in the early 90ies an exhibit of African objects that had belonged to European Artist. Among the objects on view where a pair of mask of female heads that where worn, by men most likely, with the head of the female presented in profile. The observer would see the body coming forward full frontal with the head staying in profile. We now know that Picasso owned those mask while he was doing "Les Demoiselles d' Avignon". That in no way diminishes his “What If” moment. It in fact augments his perceptions and goes to Ariche’s "...The best we can do is to take an enquiring mind to the workbench, follow our hearts and not the fashion of the moment, work hard, and hope like hell for a discerning audience***************end quote

All art is provocation, if not, it is then decoration.
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  #34  
Old 10-12-2004, 08:30 PM
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Re: Too mach balanced too mach control; Picasso

Quote:
Originally Posted by ironman
Hi, ....... What the hell do you think cubism is, if not breaking new ground in realistic art and giving us a new way of seeing that got us out from under the domination of renaissance perspective!..........
Jeff
Jeff - I think we have quite different definitions of “realism” in art. I’ll have to admit I looked on the Web many months ago for accepted common classifications in art, and found in general a lot of overlap and confusion. Categories are not clear or mutually exclusive, to be sure.

By “realism” I meant the way thing look to the average person with good vision. More or less, that is perspective as it was developed in painting during the Renaissance. Sculptors have the advantage of working in 3D and of viewing their work from many direction, so this classical perspective isn’t so central in sculpture.

Outside of his very early “realist” or naturalistic paintings, which I haven’t reviewed in many years, it seems to me everything he did came through a strong personal, or if you will, idiosyncratic, filter. And I don’t recall that those early paintings advanced the art of realism.
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  #35  
Old 10-12-2004, 08:44 PM
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Re: Too mach balanced too mach control:Avignon

Quote:
Originally Posted by rderr.com

There was in Avignon in the early 90ies an exhibit of African objects that had belonged to European Artist. Among the objects on view where a pair of mask of female heads that where worn, by men most likely, with the head of the female presented in profile. The observer would see the body coming forward full frontal with the head staying in profile. We now know that Picasso owned those mask while he was doing "Les Demoiselles d' Avignon". ..........
Robert - I remember a TV program on Picasso from about a decade ago that said he made some 900 sketches of Demoiselles d’Avignon before or while painting it, and that he spent about a year in the process. His friends advised him not to exhibit it, and after he did the reaction was so fierce he put it in the closet for another year.

I’m no expert, so I take this as close to the truth. It was radically different, and such things take time to be accepted or even to be seen for what the artist intends.
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  #36  
Old 10-13-2004, 12:22 AM
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Re: Too mach balanced too mach control

Picasso define for us a period of time , a century – he took objects , lot of non-objects, African mask, wards and color , concept and ideas and put them all together under the name Picasso, cubism
No one can erase his signature from the 20th century - He put the all century in a perspective.
not just giving us a way to see what we are looking at but to know were we are living, what we are doing - to see things in a context.
It is not a little discussion about figurative way or abstract, he did much more then this.
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  #37  
Old 10-13-2004, 06:07 AM
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Re: Too mach balanced too mach control

I agree, Araich.

The artist and the idea is primary, in my opinion.

I just have a problem with some new messianic widget being seen as the tool that will usher in a new movement in art only because it exists. To be fair, however, I've seen a few examples of some very original digital art.

Anyhow, if the gravity problem in art has been veritably conquered by the pixel, then what's next?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Araich
Are we not just talking about methodolgy, be it technical or theoretical? Methodolgy that exists simply to support the complex visual expression of an artist. That the artist remains primary?
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  #38  
Old 10-13-2004, 07:32 AM
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Re: Too mach balanced too mach control

3-D graphics are quite amazing. About 3 years ago a local university was showing a 3-D graphics system to the public. It was a screen about 8 feet tall and 10 feet wide. It was big enough encompass your peripheral vision. You put on 3-D goggles and held a control wand. The image was an invented landscape that you visually “flew” through. The control wand controlled the movement on the screen. At times my feet felt light as I watched the 3-D image in front of me. Just like fritchie claims, it completely subverted gravity.

The most vital part of sculpture is that it reminds us we have a body. Painting can behave as though we’re just brains floating in jars. Computer images are closer to painting than sculpture. A computer could be a tool to make an actual object, or if you want to ignore gravity it can be like an electric painting. You can experience sculpture by walking through the city on a rainy day and coming across public art. You can't do that with computers.

Robert makes an important point about the African masks Picasso was using. Picasso just saw the strange form and not the intended meaning behind it because he and his audience wasn’t in the tribal culture that produced them and would have provided context and norms for them. I know some claim some kind of ethical issue with Picasso doing this, but it certainly produced a thrill for the times.
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  #39  
Old 10-13-2004, 08:11 AM
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Re: Too mach balanced too mach control

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExNihiloStudio
The most vital part of sculpture is that it reminds us we have a body. Painting can behave as though we’re just brains floating in jars.
well said! that's probably why we all (sculptors) tend to create balanced works like our own body is, and like nature is (a book to recommend: "Patterns in nature" by Peter S.Stevens)

For those who wants to know more about primitive/tribal art influences over modern art (not only Picasso!!!) I recommend another wonderful book (the bible in this matter) from William Rubin edited in collaboration with MOMA in 1984. Approximate title is tribal influences in the art of the 20°century (en français : le primitivisme dans l'art du 20° siècle- ed. flammarion)
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  #40  
Old 10-13-2004, 08:27 PM
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Re: Too mach balanced too mach control

Quote:
Originally Posted by anne (bxl)
...For those who wants to know more about primitive/tribal art influences over modern art (not only Picasso!!!) I recommend another wonderful book (the bible in this matter) from William Rubin edited in collaboration with MOMA in 1984. Approximate title is tribal influences in the art of the 20°century (en français : le primitivisme dans l'art du 20° siècle- ed. flammarion)
Excellent recommendation, Anne! "Primitivism" in 20th Century Art is a 2 volume catalogue of a fabulous exhibit. At a time when I was doing paintings, not sculpture, I drove 250 miles to see this exhibit and then 250 miles home the same day and subsequently relived the exhibit in the catalogue. The cover of Volume 1 shows a detail of Picasso's painting "Girl before a Mirror", 1932, next to a painted wood Kwakiutl mask from British Columbia. Volume 2 has on the cover a Tusyan mask from the Upper Volta made of wood, fiber and seeds next to Max Ernst's Bird-Head 1934-35, which is bronze. The exhibit caused quite a stir in part because it paired many works by contemporary artists with works by supposedly "primitive" (translation: anonymous, in many cases because the works were "collected" without documenting the maker) artists. Notice that the word "Primitive" in the titled is in quotation marks? Those punctuation marks challeged previously held notions about that word. The sculptures exhibited side by side were in some cases documented to show that the contemporary or Western artist was familiar with the supposedly "primitive" work and thought enough of it to incorporate some of its ideas in his own work. In other cases it is thought that the artworks being paired were the result of the contemporary artist and the "primitive" one arriving at remarkably similar visual solutions without knowing of the existence of the other.

I can't get the attachments to upload, so I'll post them in a few minutes.
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  #41  
Old 10-14-2004, 09:56 AM
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Re: Too mach balanced too mach control

Hi, I can't keep pounding this stuff about Picasso any more, my fingers are getting calloused from hitting the keyboard. BUT, and this is mainly directed to fritchie, Hi Fritchie, If a painting or sculpture has recognizable body parts, faces, eyes, nose, mouth, hands, fingers, feet, toes, torso, legs, etc. however they are arranged or rearranged, it is realistic! Picasso, borrowed, distorted, rearranged, etc. for visual effect and to add powerful feeling to his work. Look at GUERNICA, arguably the most powerful painting of the 20th century, there are recognizable human & animal imagery (realistic) although distorted in that piece. Almost caricaturish, yet visually stunning as a statement of & against the horrors of war. Fritchie, what's the difference between his distortions and your figures with truncated limbs & head? You're a good sculptor but I think you have a little tunnel vision and that opening yourself up to new ways of seeing, (and still staying a figurative sculptor) might do you some good. David Smith said, "everything imagined is reality, the mind cannot conceive of unreal things". I like that!
Hi Obseq, "dymamically, art consists of mark making in space". It does now, but who's to say what the future will bring? It may only appear on a computer screen in the future, sculpture that appears 3d on the screen & rotates, paintings that change colors as you look at them! I don't think that Rodin could ever imagine a deSuvero sculpture even existing let alone being considered great art, so although they both did "mark making in space", that too may change.
Hi Mark, Thanks for the Macintyre info.
True, cubism is an early 20th century "ism" and not really practiced today but it has been the jumping off point (along with surrealism) of a much of the art of the 20th century and even work being done today. Love your post (#30), "tough luck if you didn't agree". Oh, but I do agree, and really like that last paragraph, except I try not to be so pessimistic about what's new & being shown in the galleries. there is still quality work being shown out there and a lot of the crap, fortunately disappears in the blink of an eye anyway (and it makes the good work look even better).
Hi Araich, Yes I agree with you (post #32) but I see a lot of redundancy out there and have the nagging feeling that we're beating a dead horse. Maybe I feel that way because art has taken a back seat to movies, video, computer, etc., all 20th century inventions that past artists didn't have to compete against. Our (artists) impact has gotten smaller and smaller and that's what I'm reacting to.
Hi Shlomo, you are so right, (post #36) and we are still under his influence.
Hi Obseq, You said something about having a problem with a new messianic widget that will usher in a new movement in art only because it exists. Yes, of course, it's the person behind the widget who will change things, by his or her creative ability to see & explore new possibilities. Just as the invention of oil paint changed painting, the invention of photography changed art, (I don't think it's just a coincidence that once photography gained in popularity, that impressionism, post impressionism, etc. appeared on the horizon). Commercially available tube colors (1877) had something to do with it also. This box we've been communicating on will change art. It's already changed it and architecture as well. Frank Gehry said that he couldn't design & build those buildings of his without one!
One of the reasons that I keep harping redundantly on this "computer is the future of art" subject, is that I have a very bright & creative 10 yr. old nephew who does ALL his creative work on a computer, writes music, draws & illustrates stories & cartoons, etc., and I don't think he's all that different from any other bright, creative 10 yr. old. Young kids take to this stuff (computer) like a duck to water and they're the future of art.
Oh, I'm not all that interested in why Picasso used a take off on african masks, etc. for his work, the fact is that he did and to great effect. We all "appropriate" other work into our own, just not so obviously, most of the time. Again, he opened the door as far as it could go, in art, anything goes and anything & everything can & will be used to make art and express the human condition.
GO YANKEES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Have a great day,
Jeff
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  #42  
Old 10-14-2004, 11:49 AM
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Re: Too mach balanced too mach control

Quote:
Originally Posted by ironman
... If a painting or sculpture has recognizable body parts, faces, eyes, nose, mouth, hands, fingers, feet, toes, torso, legs, etc. however they are arranged or rearranged, it is realistic! David Smith said, "everything imagined is reality, the mind cannot conceive of unreal things". I like that!
Hi Obseq, "dymamically, art consists of mark making in space". It does now, but who's to say what the future will bring?
Hi Araich, Yes I agree with you (post #32) but I see a lot of redundancy out there and have the nagging feeling that we're beating a dead horse.
Jeff
Mermaid arguably has several recognizable body parts but she aint real -----kinda sexy maybe(how do fishfolk have sex)---figurative fersure....but realistic? And as/re "everything imagined is reality..."Fancy new sportscoat with wrap arround sleeves and lotsa belts and buckles time?

photo-realism, sur-realism,... The lexicon expands as the art evolves...we all learn to balance our individual imaginings within learned constraints---Picasso and the modernists sought freedom from the old constraints, and created new ones.
reality itself is a non-real construct....just a series of quasi scientific pidgeon holes loosely arranged in a pseudo cabinet of observable phenomenon.

if all derives from the imagination,....what then is a "non-realistic" work

as Alice was created to say--------curiouser and curiouser....

whither hence?
rod
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  #43  
Old 10-14-2004, 12:42 PM
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Re: Too mach balanced too mach control

Quote:
Originally Posted by ironman
...Oh, I'm not all that interested in why Picasso used a take off on african masks, etc. ...Jeff
It was recognition of the very things you were talking about. He saw that the imagery of these "primitive" African, Northwest Coast, Maori, etc. works was more original and more attuned to the imagination than most "art" of time. It was, in essence better art, truer to the inner core reather than just being a mirror. There were usually "figurative" elements but they never borrowed slavishly from visual reality. They were inventive. They represented the soul of things. In experiencing Northwest Coast (British Columbia) original people's art was the first time I saw that certain artworks conveyed two beings exisiting in the same space. That is an amazing achievement that for the most part escapes European based artists. The economy of concept that can show two entities occupying the same space at the same time, yet being distinct from one another is a stunning achievement.
Picasso was right, though he copied and tried (only sometimes successfully) to work in that same philosophical vein.
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  #44  
Old 10-14-2004, 01:01 PM
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Re: Too mach balanced too mach control

Computers can be a great tool to create work. I find myself using image programs often for manipulating sketches/compositions and the grunt work of scaling up/down for final patterns. But they are just that, a tool. I think people can get a little too caught up in the Brave New Virtual World and miss it's limitations.

All tools have their limitations, it's the other side of the coin of their having an application. One of the limitations of working Virtually is the difficulty in drawing on the physical intelligence your body has cultivated through creating works that exist independant of the mind. The act of molding clay, bending steel, weilding a brush informs the body and the mind about the world. Perhaps this is why most digital work feels cold and sterile to me. There isn't enough dirt in them. Witness the vast inferiority of the new Star Wars movies to the first. How much more advanced is their creation, yet how vastly superior are the original model-based effects? This is one criticism I have of Gehry's building as well. The one I've been in is an absolutely terrible use of space (the Weisman Art Building at the UofM). It reminds me of the derogatory tone the word Engineer is spoken of at metal shops. Aside from pure prejudice, what these metal workers have tapped into is the disconnect between the plans and the Real World. And in my opinion, Great/Trancendant Art informs and alters how we see the world because it is born in the world.
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  #45  
Old 10-14-2004, 01:18 PM
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Re: Too mach balanced too mach control

"One of the limitations of working Virtually is the difficulty in drawing on the physical intelligence your body has cultivated through creating works that exist independant of the mind. "

I was going to make this point but sculptorsam beat me to it and wrote it as well as I ever could. I would only add physical and mental.

In my own experience I have found the process of drawing something with paper and pencil to be the best way to learn about something. If you're looking at something and you want to figure it out, draw it. I have also found that by drawing something I get a much stronger memory of it embedded in my brain. This only helps later on. The computer can be used to bypass this mental excersize which means you can get work done without cultivating yourself at all.

I don't think anything has changed the programming adage "Garbage in, garbage out".

Any software comes with a built in set of assumptions made by the programmers and those assumptions may limit you without you even knowing what they are. In other words there are lots of strings attached when you use the computer. Besides, computers are about de-skilling labor and mass production. One theory I've heard about the booming 90's economy is that a massive increase in computer use increased worker productivity without adding employees.
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  #46  
Old 10-14-2004, 04:14 PM
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Re: Too mach balanced too mach control

It is elementary that real artists will seek for change, for a deep change in the human condition. All the changes, especially in art, come from luck of satisfaction.( The changes from figurative to abstract to surrealistic to modernism and the come back to realisem….) Real artists lives in constant condition of non-satisfaction, and the real longing of their soul isn't only just to express it – but to change the whole situation they are living in . we are living in.
What Ironman meant ( excused me if I wrong and excused my english) was not that computer drawing, sketching, or using this kind of software or another, is better than another kind of art, but that the world of computers will completely change the world – it will change the way we think – it will change us – the human kind, and that kind of change will maybe take us out from the age of cubism.
Computer art will be something else, something so different that we can't even imagine.

Last edited by shlomo : 10-14-2004 at 04:38 PM.
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  #47  
Old 10-14-2004, 04:53 PM
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Re: Too mach balanced too mach control

Quote:
Originally Posted by sculptor

if all derives from the imagination,....what then is a "non-realistic" work

as Alice was created to say--------curiouser and curiouser....

whither hence?
rod
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  #48  
Old 10-14-2004, 05:05 PM
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Re: Too mach balanced too mach control

Quote:
Originally Posted by shlomo
Real artists lives in constant condition of non-satisfaction, and the real longing of their soul isn't only just to express it – but to change the whole situation they are living in . we are living in.
I think this is overly idealistic. It is true that for some it is the dominant part of their art practice, but not for all. And it certainly is not a qualifier for being a 'Real' artist. I for one could care less about changing the world.
If you mean by non-satisfaction, the always distant final/perfect artwork, then I would agree. But for me, my art is a vehicle for my small steps forward as a human being. It challenges me to look harder and to step back from rushed judgement. These are qualities that would serve us well.
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  #49  
Old 10-14-2004, 05:29 PM
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Re: Too mach balanced too mach control

Hi Jeff,


I don't think the dynamic will change. Some of the things you speak of exist, already. One of the more (in)famous examples are owned by Bill Gates, who has digital wall paintings that change color/shape based on exothermic feedback provided by anyone walking by. You did mention that our way of thinking will change, which I completely glossed over while initially adding my thoughts to the thread. You are absolutely correct, here. I do think, however, that any significant evidence of change within digital art will stem from the role of the spectator. To borrow from digital artist, David Rokeby, "Interactivty as content." Digital art deviates from the classical relationship between spectator and art by allowing for certain real-time choices to be made that alter immediate content thereby allowing for equally immediate synthesis of information. Classically, we experience content in 2-D time, synthesize a momentary perspective, and likely move on, possibly reflecting away from the piece. The bridge between digital and classical art rests in the moment in which a spectator looks at a static painting or sculpture, and projects certain inclinations onto a given piece. S/he could imagine that a decidely horizontal landscape in a painting extends in that direction, beyond the frame, or that a decidedly vertical neck on one of Fritchie's sculptures continues towards the gallery ceiling,tapering off to a fine point--All a sort of mental intertia. Rigid point-and-click constructs do not constitute for interavity nor any subseqeuent synthesis of content.

It is interesting that you mention today's youth. It's even more interesting to wonder that an economically polarizing technology like the computer will produce more artists than a lump of clay, or some paint. These kids like your nephew are clearly bright. I am just more taken by what they do with traditional materials.
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"dymamically, art consists of mark making in space". It does now, but who's to say what the future will bring? It may only appear on a computer screen in the future, sculpture that appears 3d on the screen & rotates, paintings that change colors as you look at them! I don't think that Rodin could ever imagine a deSuvero sculpture even existing let alone being considered great art, so although they both did "mark making in space", that too may change.


You said something about having a problem with a new messianic widget that will usher in a new movement in art only because it exists. Yes, of course, it's the person behind the widget who will change things, by his or her creative ability to see & explore new possibilities. Just as the invention of oil paint changed painting, the invention of photography changed art, (I don't think it's just a coincidence that once photography gained in popularity, that impressionism, post impressionism, etc. appeared on the horizon). Commercially available tube colors (1877) had something to do with it also. This box we've been communicating on will change art. It's already changed it and architecture as well. Frank Gehry said that he couldn't design & build those buildings of his without one!
One of the reasons that I keep harping redundantly on this "computer is the future of art" subject, is that I have a very bright & creative 10 yr. old nephew who does ALL his creative work on a computer, writes music, draws & illustrates stories & cartoons, etc., and I don't think he's all that different from any other bright, creative 10 yr. old. Young kids take to this stuff (computer) like a duck to water and they're the future of art.
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Old 10-14-2004, 06:48 PM
shlomo shlomo is offline
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Re: Too mach balanced too mach control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Araich
But for me, my art is a vehicle for my small steps forward as a human being. .
Ariach we came back to the beginning. To the deep difference between us – yes I think that "real" art is a spouse of philosophy and ideology . it isn't only beautiful lines, curves or color – real art tried to touch something invisible, to touch our existence here in this world. "real art" is a need, A breath. it is not a vehicle.
but you are right i'm overly idealistic.

Last edited by shlomo : 10-14-2004 at 06:52 PM.
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