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  #51  
Old 01-24-2009, 10:19 PM
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evaldart evaldart is offline
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Re: David

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Originally Posted by GlennT View Post
Perpective, my man! It is a colossal work when compared to that guy who sculpts those needle-eye-sized works under a microscope.
(what are those...trillioninkets?)
No, those are not Art...they are spectacle. Ripley's Believe it or Not fodder.
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  #52  
Old 01-24-2009, 11:50 PM
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Re: David

And then ,those eye-of-the-needle sculptures are colossal when compared to The Creation of Michelangelo's Atom's by God.
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  #53  
Old 01-25-2009, 09:30 AM
mountshang mountshang is offline
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Re: David

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Got to agree with Glenn & Evald. Definitely Archiac Greek.

Have two other that might interest you:

from christies: http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/l...jectID=5126760

this one is interesting since it destroys the anatomy:
http://www.israeli-painting.com/popu...e39b4b36038a78

Not sure if I like the second one. Novelty yes. Execution - looks like two Gumbys. They are also a little crowded on that small base. If David was that close, as in the 2nd sculpture, the Bible would have been rewritten as a Phillistine Religious Book.

Carl

Wow -- thanks! -- like Michelangelo's tribute to Florence, these two sculptors seem to be glorifying their respective nationalities: Germany and Israel -- and how ironic is that!


Metzner -- who did other patriotic stuff -- has envisioned David as just a miniature version of dumb-strong Goliath -- while the Israeli piece shows Goliath as still standing -- despite the gaping hole in his head (BTW -- the sculpture includes a removable golden ball fits into the hole) -- which, I'm afraid is the no-win situation that the modern state of Israel has endured ever since it began.

My favorites are still the Donatello and Verrochio versions -- which don't seem patriotic at all -- but, as Camille Paglia tells us , are better understood as the revival of Classical homo eroticism.
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  #54  
Old 01-26-2009, 10:09 PM
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Re: David

Twisting the David fable to agree with anyones national or social agenda is demeaning to the sculpture, to the created object. Appropriating or Piggy-backing that narrative is a cheap shot...certain-to-impress for all the wrong reasons. You want good art or do you want some damned statement...about...groups of people?

David is a better hero than most because of the unforseen triumph...and unforseen triumph is what we must accomplish in Art. If the triumph is forseen...then you selected Shaggy Rogers and not Goliath. And no matter how much they pay you to whoop Shaggy's ass, and no matter how good you get at whooping shaggy's ass, and no matter how many museums contain artifacts of you whooping Shaggy's ass...it aint no big deal.

It will be tiresome and inconvenient to challenge Goliath ALL the time...so some sparring is allowed. Perhaps Joan Jett or Danny Bonaduce.
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  #55  
Old 01-27-2009, 09:40 AM
mountshang mountshang is offline
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Re: David

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Twisting the David fable to agree with anyones national or social agenda is demeaning to the sculpture, to the created object. Appropriating or Piggy-backing that narrative is a cheap shot...certain-to-impress for all the wrong reasons. You want good art or do you want some damned statement...about...groups of people?
.

And yet Wikipedia tells us that the most famous statue in the world, Michelangelo's David, "came to symbolize the defense of civic liberties embodied in the Florentine Republic, an independent city state threatened on all sides by more powerful rival states and by the hegemony of the Medici themselves. This interpretation was also encouraged by the original setting of the sculpture outside the Palazzo della Signoria, the seat of civic government in Florence"


So... it looks like the Florentines wanted a "damned statement" -- or -- more accurately -- they seem to have wanted (and gotten) a beautiful statement.

What's "good art" good for, anyway?

Self expression ?


BTW -- besides being a rarity after the Renaissance -- statues (or reliefs) of David were a rarity before it as well.

Can anyone think of an example from the Middle Ages or before ? David was kind of a spunky, rebellious, and self indulgent character.
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  #56  
Old 01-27-2009, 10:09 AM
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Re: David

Michelangelo lived in politically charged times that impinged on everything he tried to do (and was allowed to do). There was no separating art from its context in any sense in those days, in that country. The idea of art Evaldart commits to (a kind of personal religion with the redemptive power of revelation itself) displays a desire to transcend history, to divorce from the realities that stone workers had to struggle with. For years at a time Michelangelo didn't sculpt at all; instead he spent his time evading a demanding Pope, worrying about losing his citizenship and coping with the politics of buying stone in Carrara (and then shipping it to Florence etc). Politicallly, he was committed, and active inn his commitments. I see his work as loaded with statements, with posturing too, and I believe recent interpretations of the sistine chapel refer to the attacks on his masters and on the world he occupied as a 'wage slave'. Modern art, with its social isolationism, is something else. And modern artists have often made a virtue of this isolating of art from its social context, as if recognising the socio/political world we belong to would be to degrade the artist. Such superiority! Such integrity!
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Last edited by Portoro : 01-27-2009 at 10:21 AM.
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  #57  
Old 01-27-2009, 10:39 AM
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Re: David

I think that any subject, including politics, can be used as the seed of a great work of art, it just needs to transcend the subject in order to become great. One can appreciate the beauty and mastery of Michelangelo's David without knowing a thing about Italian Renaissance politics.
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  #58  
Old 01-27-2009, 11:28 AM
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Re: David

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Originally Posted by Portoro View Post
And modern artists have often made a virtue of this isolating of art from its social context, as if recognising the socio/political world we belong to would be to degrade the artist. Such superiority! Such integrity!
I'm not sure whether you're taking a jab at the evaldartonian school of non-culture related Art or not, but I do think it's refreshing to see this from your vantage point as you tend to frame things clearly, if not subtly. "Mixing it up" is what it's all about both on the field and off and any conformity or adherence to this way or another for any extended period of time to me is a toxin for Art in its finest sense. Not to say I am against tradition or am continually demanding the "new", I am not. I do feel though that upon this field even a middle ground usually tends to end up rendering itself as mediocrity and the extremes are what give Art its life. It's a fascinating picture one way or another and that superiority and integrity you seemingly mock, may actually be just that.

Oh, I forgot to mention, I do not think that the genuine artist believes that socio/political context degrades the artist, but rather the Art itself. I have wondered more than once what Michelangelo would have made had he not been pitted somewhat between the church and regional politics, which were much more closely linked back then.. His original or fist carving was said to be a fawn I think, (I could be wrong, it's been a long time since I've read about him).. I do remember whatever it was thinking that it was pretty tame subject matter, unpolluted from society as of yet.

Last edited by StevenW : 01-27-2009 at 11:43 AM.
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  #59  
Old 01-27-2009, 09:06 PM
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Re: David

My Goth, what a bunch of art snobs!
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  #60  
Old 01-27-2009, 10:29 PM
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Re: David

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Originally Posted by mountshang View Post
..."came to symbolize ..."
.
rather hits the "who/what is art for" nail on the head
and
just who's art is it anyway

If not for the constraints imposed by the partially worked marble
would the composition have been as dynamic?

Medici funding and support (Cosimo made lots and, annually, spent more'n Florence's annual budget kick starting the renaissance)
guides the art and the artist

then the tyranny of julius(the warrior pope) guides the artist
till time has removed the strength
and
all that is left is a hollow shell
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  #61  
Old 01-27-2009, 10:37 PM
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Re: David

Point is, Mich's "bone" was abandoned and left for dead. And yes, it did influence the composition...as it should have. Any truly creative person will be able to work wonders with whatever is at hand. So Mich took the "ruined" and triumphed. Triumphed gloriously over a massive, hacked-at block that had been nothing but an eyesore for a generation. But IT was big and HE was big...so it was a marriage made in...well, some very pertinent place.
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  #62  
Old 01-28-2009, 03:56 AM
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Re: David

Steven – re. post 58. I have to admit, such mockery as I indulged in was also at my own expense. I’ve an interest in the varieties of art, and have enjoyed studying all forms of creativity, but when it comes to making something, everything I do is ‘isolationist’. I feel no desire to make statements through art, and I have loved the way in which modern art freed itself from its patrons (pre-Hirst and the post-1990 breed of artist-entrepreneurs) and all those things we associate with art as a vehicle for something else. My heart lies in minimalism, in clean exacting form that approaches what abstraction always seeks - the Platonic forms that everything real points to. Judd sears my soul! I can see heaven in a pile of bricks! So, the Evaldart school of art? I have to support it. I’d study there!

Michelangelo - Got to recommend Eric Scigliano’s ‘’Michelangelo’s Mountain’. He’s an ISC member, and I’ve read his book (whilst in Carrara) a number of times – a revelation on the realities of the sculptor’s life in ‘Renaissance’ Italy. This is the story of Michelangelo as ‘Project Manager’, and part-time artist.
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  #63  
Old 01-28-2009, 08:41 AM
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Re: David

Ahh, then my intuitions betrayed me and perhaps you were being more subtle and focused than I imagined, my apologies. If this mockery extended to a Hirst, et. al. and remained confined therein, then perhaps it is warranted. I am no great admirer of the vainglorious, nor pop-art in general and I have never seen American Idol, nor mde it to the end of a Brittany Spears song. Where one artist might feel the slight of himself upon the intrusions of culture and socio-political influence, another kind of person would see the slight aimed at the art itself. This kind of artist serves art for arts sake and nothing more and that to me is worth protecting. In the case of Michelangelo, he felt perhaps that there was no seperating church from state and art from church because they were different times. Far less secular than today's Europe and today's notions could not have applied.

I have read Michelangelo's Mountain, dad gave it to me for christmas a couple years ago, terrific book. Add to the list Charles Clement and John Addington Symonds, great old scribblers.
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  #64  
Old 01-28-2009, 09:20 AM
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Re: David

Dont forget 'Michelangelo's David: A Search for Identity" by Charles Seymour, jr. Its the least pretentious and least concocted book I've read on the subject.
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  #65  
Old 01-29-2009, 03:03 AM
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Re: David

A statement by David Smith (Joe's strap line) sums up one reason why the modern artist has distanced him/herself from society: "Art has existed from the minds of free men for less than a century...thus the freedom of man's mind to celebrate his own feeling by a work of art parallels his social revolt from bondage."

Perhaps, then, the move to abstract art is a move away from being tied down, a part of our desire to establish a visual freedom that parallels our recently discovered social freedom. The limitations of the visual field the eye offers has been seen for what it is - another tyranny!
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  #66  
Old 01-29-2009, 09:43 AM
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Re: David

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A statement by David Smith (Joe's strap line) sums up one reason why the modern artist has distanced him/herself from society: "Art has existed from the minds of free men for less than a century...thus the freedom of man's mind to celebrate his own feeling by a work of art parallels his social revolt from bondage."

Perhaps, then, the move to abstract art is a move away from being tied down, a part of our desire to establish a visual freedom that parallels our recently discovered social freedom. The limitations of the visual field the eye offers has been seen for what it is - another tyranny!
Another Tyranny indeed Cantab.
But, as forward-thinking creatives we must be sure that our liberated efforts are NOT simply founded in rejection...or even revulsion. True abstraction provides us with the opportunity to concoct UNAFFECTED, unresponsnding to our ties to any culture. And if anyone thinks that its impossible to be unaffected, or that detached, then they just need to sit down and think LESS about it. Theres plenty of room to swipe at your crappy leaders alongside the throes of all your regular doings. But it is your EXCEPTIONAL doings that must remain untainted by the ants and jackasses that are ever busying themselves at your heels.
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  #67  
Old 01-29-2009, 10:05 AM
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Re: David

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Perhaps, then, the move to abstract art is a move away from being tied down, a part of our desire to establish a visual freedom that parallels our recently discovered social freedom.
Its not primarily about a "desire to establish a visual freedom". Its about saying things the way they need to be said without unnecessary, uncalled for restrictions. Its about unfettered expression so that what needs to done can be done the only way it can be done. Think Janet Jackson's exposure. Didn't know she had that much of the rock attitude.
Quote:
The limitations of the visual field the eye offers has been seen for what it is - another tyranny!
That is what the imagination is for.
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  #68  
Old 01-30-2009, 03:00 PM
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Re: David

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Originally Posted by Portoro View Post
A statement by David Smith (Joe's strap line) sums up one reason why the modern artist has distanced him/herself from society: "Art has existed from the minds of free men for less than a century...thus the freedom of man's mind to celebrate his own feeling by a work of art parallels his social revolt from bondage."
But -- I don't think that's true.

If art is whatever anyone calls it -- then -- with a few exceptions both then and now -- people have always been free to celebrate their own feeling by making works of art.

Perhaps the Medieval European was not free to display an image of Buddha that he made -- but then, I'm not free to show nude statues in my own back yard (the neighbors complained and made me erect a high fence).

Or -- if art is only that which receives significant institutional or economic recognition as such -- very few celebrations of self have ever made the cut -- now or ever.

I suppose David Smith could disagree -- because he felt that he was only expressing himself -- and he became an art star.

But that's kind of an exceptional case --- isn't it ?
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  #69  
Old 01-30-2009, 07:24 PM
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Re: David

Since we are back to discussing the David Smith quote, I still maintain that it is a self-absorbed perspective, to judge the thoughts and feelings of artists from all other times and places in human history and declare that they were not free just because they lived in times characterized by specific beliefs.

The assumption is that if one affirms a particular religious point of view, for example, then their minds are not free. In fact, it is quite the opposite for many people. A religious perspective can help focus the mind by establishing a reassurance of some order and design in the universe. The soul is then free from fear or uncertainty to contemplate his or her relationship to the comos, to appreciate and explore the wonder of it all, and to glory in those aspects to which they feel the most affinity towards.

Let us say that I were an ancient Greek sculptor. My belief in Zeus and Hera, in Apollo and Artemis, in Athena and Hermes, gives me great joy in contemplating their virtues. I feel a tremendous freedom in expressing those qualities, trying to interpret them in form as I imagine them to be. I am not in mental bondage to whatever dogma is associated with them, I am free to look within and raise my consciousness to a level where I am able to grasp some exalted concept that they embody, and translate that into form in a way that has never been done before. My reverence is not a matter of bondage but is freely given. I live in a society where in fact there is a wide range of practises and beliefs in relation to these gods and goddesses. Some doubt their existence, others think they exist but show no care or concern for mortals, others think they do love and interact with those whom they find worthy. There is perfect freedom to accept or reject dogma and to come to terms with ones relationship to the society's understanding of these things, or to forge new understandings and revelations.

The problem with not believing in anything is the propensity to believe everything, which is not freedom but moral confusion.
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  #70  
Old 01-30-2009, 08:19 PM
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Re: David

The problem with any belief is that its acts like a conclusion that thinks it is an answer. So this righteous mish-mosh of convincedness puffs-out chests and inflates egos. Posessors of such fluff assume their Olympuses and then they didact to all the jackasses, sidelong glances at the height of the nieghbors mount all the while.
I think it was Derr who said he never uses "I believe". Now I do not say "I believe" anymore either.
What if you actually made it to the horizon and found out that it was just some more hot dirt. Maybe you would feel like a Dolt for coming so far for THAT answer.

Last edited by evaldart : 01-31-2009 at 11:58 AM.
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  #71  
Old 01-30-2009, 08:59 PM
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Re: David

Any belief that professes to have all the answers is vanity, in as much as our human brains are a rather limited mechanism to process all knowledge in the universe, let alone the mind of God. But I find little to get worked up about if a belief has "some of the answers". It serves to mark mental space as a placeholder until the next level of knowledge may transcend the former.
I like that better than surrendering to the notion that no knowledge of the divine is possible.
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  #72  
Old 01-31-2009, 10:53 AM
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Re: David

I don't know the history of this listserv -- maybe all the flame-throwers have burned out and left -- but this seems to have been a very reasonable discussion by people passionately committed to contrasting ideals.

Congratulations to all of us.
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  #73  
Old 01-31-2009, 02:33 PM
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Re: David

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What if you actually made it to the horizon and found out that it was just some more hot dirt. Maybe you would feel like a Dolt for coming so far for THAT answer.

Maybe, but it's just possible the tracks you laid down before you could lead others to your oasis as opposed to your skeleton. You're all living proof that there are plenty of wells left out there.
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  #74  
Old 01-31-2009, 03:01 PM
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Re: David

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Maybe, but it's just possible the tracks you laid down before you could lead others to your oasis as opposed to your skeleton. You're all living proof that there are plenty of wells left out there.

Well, since it takes much more than just a THOUGHT to be Art, it wont matter what your last one is. So it will be as pertinent as possible to die grinning at the scenario that my stinking skeleton would be waiting there to cause some other over-zealous wayfarer to piss himself in shock when he reached it; having gotten as far as he could go.
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  #75  
Old 01-31-2009, 03:14 PM
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Re: David

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So it will be as pertinent as possible to die grinning at the scenario that my stinking skeleton would be waiting there to cause some other over-zealous wayfarer to piss himself in shock when he reached it; having gotten as far as he could go.
The problem always has been deciding which tracks to follow, or whether to strike out on an unbeaten path, the geese have no problem with the former, they follow the same route every year on migrations going back millions of years in the past. I wonder if Michelangelo is sitting there in the skull orchard with a big grin on his bony face as if to say; Told ya so Matt.

I predict an oasis.
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