Second Thoughts

[GaryR52]

I've recently picked the brain of a gallery owner for tips on marketing my digital sculpture and have, now more than ever, come to the conclusion that it will be difficult, if not impossible, to sell my digital works without first producing them in the round. This, being prohibitively expensive, I've decided the better approach might be to produce some work by hand, as I did years ago, using traditional media (clay, wax, plaster for casting in resin and/or bronze) and let sales of these pieces fund the production of my digital pieces. Also, having some physical work to show will help sell the digital pieces that are yet to be produced via rapid prototyping. Okay, now you can say "I told you so," guys.

Along those lines, I'm thinking the cheapest, fastest route to getting started is to use polymer clay to model in, RTV mold rubber and polyester resin/powdered bronze to do cold castings, which can sell for reasonable prices. I can move to more expensive materials like wax, for casting in bronze later. Having worked with polymer clay before, I know I can get it hard enough to use as a pattern without having to buy a kiln yet, and a reusable rubber mold lets me make a fairly decent sized edition. Having said that, any ideas as to how to price cold cast pieces? What would be reasonable, coming from a new sculptor, assuming a size of around 10" to 12" or so?

Gary

[sculptor]

Gary
may I be so bold as to ask...

¿ Have you ever sold sculpture through the internet?

I have asked this of many other artists over the past 5 years, and not met a single one who has.
Mostly, we all have had invitations to shows, and feel that offering the information on-line to potential and past customers and their associates is a good introduction, or ancillary support to the seriousness and professionalism of our work.

as/re pricing---
my macquette sized pieces----12"-22" usually sell in the gallery for $125- $250
in cold-cast or plaster or hydrocal-----eg the nelly, i normally add colorants to the plaster(she was designed to allow pouring plaster/hydrocal from the bottom) and the gallery priced her at $125--I prefer the light chocolat brown copies but the pinkish white ones sell better--she sells well-----meanwhile the coldcast persian war veteran hasn't sold many copies, and none for the past 2 years--
I think he is the better of the two, but cannot be cast safely in plaster due to the design(his arm would be too weak)

rod

[GaryR52]

Admittedly, no, Rod. In consulting with the afforementioned gallery owner, who maintains an online gallery in addition to the "brick-and-mortar" one, he says he hasn't managed to sell anything online, either. However, as I'm changing my strategy now, I won't be concentrating on online sales, anyway. I'll be selling (or attempting to sell) via the usual marketing channels; i.e., galleries, shows, shops and out of my own "studio." The internet will still be a place for my online portfolio, though, and that can gain me exposure I wouldn't ordinarily get, so I don't consider it a waste, even if no sales result online.

Thanks for the price guidelines. I did a little online research of several sculptors who are selling cold cast bronzes and found the range between about 6" to 22" and anywhere from $30 to $1,000. One artist is selling at $100 to $300, another at $200 to $300 and another at $400 to $1,000, which I thought was a bit high for cold cast pieces ranging from 8" to 22". But, maybe he's been at it a while and has a well-known reputation.

Another thing I learned is that most sculptors offering cold cast sculpture are either doing figurative or animal sculpture, with the vast majority being animal sculptors. I found a few examples of abstraction, but not many. So, I wonder if my work will sell in that material or not. It could be it will because I'm one of the few offering non-objective sculpture in that medium and at that price range, or it could be that I don't because most people looking for cold cast bronzes are looking for horses and dogs. Kind of hard to predict without trying the market first.

Incidentally, one other good aspect to my change of focus is that I'll be able to produce my work a lot more cheaply than I could via rapid prototyping. Hundreds of dollars less per piece, in fact.

Gary

[GaryR52]

My first handmade piece in...well, a long time. Medium: Super Sculpy polymer clay. Great stuff. It holds a shape like nothing else will (with the possible exception of wax) and you can bend and twist it forever without it breaking or slumping, unlike natural clay. Dimensions: 4 1/4"H x 4" x 3 3/4", a little smaller than I was hoping for, but this is only 1 pound of the stuff. This is in its "fired" state (it's actually oven baked at 275 degrees for 15 minutes per 1/4" of thickness), which looks the same as its raw state. It has a disturbingly realistic fleshy color, which I guess is great if you're doing figurative work. Total cost, so far: $8.97. Modeling time: about an hour (there was a lot of preliminary kneading, as it's pretty firm fresh from the box).

I'm calling this one "Undulation I." Next step: get some Instamold and make a mold of it. It's a start, anyway.

Gary

[Morgen_K]

Gary, I've done both abstract and (as you've seen) the uber realism route. The abstract I LOVE to do, but I haven't found a way to have it pay any bills for me. Our work style is very similar believe it or not. But galleries are, well, really the way to go if you are selling abstract especially imo.

It seems like if someone is looking for that type of art, they're going to go to a gallery, not surf online. They would like a gallery and it's atmosphere to "show" them the work. I DO see tons of abstract works online, but usually those artists are doing shows at galleries. I presume (and could be way off too), that their online clients find them only after shows or postcards at least (that are generated by maiiling lists started by show exhibits).

My grandfather has some works online:
http://www.one-horse.net/chickenscratch/jrcwork2.htm
(notice how it's off of my website.. lol!)

Anyhow, he's never sold any through that site. Only through shows. Ditto for my uncle who made those pages and his own painting gallery: http://www.one-horse.net/chickenscratch/

The collectible world, fwiw, is treated pretty harshly by more stylized artists. My own family members lament that my work doesn't have more "character" anymore. But I do my art from my heart as always and really delight in "feeling" something.. even if the lines and curves I want to capture a tension or softness have to follow real world principles and concrete anatomical realities, I still truly enjoy creating the feel of a piece. BUT, certain buyers just aren't interested in that kind of thing.

I'm a fan of all types of art but I know my niche market really well. I sold out my last edition of 200 pieces this past weekend in a collectible market type of record - 72hrs and one minute from me sending out my notice to my yahoogroup online mailing list. I can't get mailing lists and excitement and hype like that in the real art world anywhere nearly as easily. I'd love to, because it's a great relief not to have works sitting around forever for sale - and I love to work bigger. But I'd rather be a "sell out" and actually sell out (hahaha) but also really bring what I like to make to people who absolutely adore owning the peices... and thus really dig into that niche. To hell with those who think it's not real art (but be aware there are a LOT who do).

Find your niche and enjoy it and SCULPT. That's the point of my story I suppose!

[GaryR52]

Well, getting into a gallery is my goal, Morgen. The online portfolio will help, though, as it gives gallery owners something to look at - gallery owners I haven't sent my slides to and whom I don't know of, that is.

Yep, the market for abstraction is small and doesn't pay well unless you can get yourself into an upscale New York gallery, but, contrary to what some think, I enjoy doing abstract sculpture and would do it even if it paid nothing (which is exacty what I have been doing, in fact). I don't need this to pay the bills with, though that'd be nice if it happens. I'll do what I want to do (hey, it's fine art, not commercial art, right?) and if anyone buys it, great.

So, anyway, I'm changing gears, here. Instead of trying to sell online, I'll be promoting myself online and offline and probably doing the selling in galleries (if I can get in), shows (if I can afford them) and selling out of my studio (the more likely scenario, if galleries aren't interested enough). By the way, the above mentioned gallery owner said my work "has promise." I guess that's a start, eh?

P.S.: After finding out Roma Plastilina costs half of what I paid for my Super Sculpy, and Roma Plastilina is re-usable, I think I'll go with that instead of polymer clay, which is too expensive for anything other than jewelry. What do you model your horses in, Morgen?

Gary

[bluedogshuz]

Gary,
I was trying to analyize what you were trying to do with RP and software etc. I'm kind of glad you are experiencing the joy of getting down and dirty with material. I did really think the digital stuff was cool and want to get into that in the future. Have you ever tried working with EPS foam? I have been doing this for years when I became frustrated with stone carving limitations. I carve the abstract piece with a hot knife, look at the shape and if I like it I cover it with fiberglass cloth and design cast 66 which is a fine grained polymer-concrete like material. I then add a copper emulsion polymer which looks like copper, bronze or rust and then use a premix patina to get weathered look. I have had pieces out in the florida sun for 10 years iwth nho disintegration. (PS People at DC told me I shouldn't use fine fiberglass cloth because you really have to soak it, DUH)Just have to glue them to concrete so they don't blow away (ie hurricane Dennis). I don't know if they will sell, but they certainly look like bronze and with epoxy and reinforcements I just "built" one that is 9.5' at a cost of approx. $200.00. In other words, at an hourly rate of $20. I could sell for $1,000.00. At least that6s the plan! I'm stupid when it comes to mold making, hate it, ergo that is why I model, construct or carve. Kind of a caveman mentality. Besides I have found I spend plenty of time as a mad scientist and really want to play with material. Maybe this idea would be of interest, even though it would be very difficult to get the glass into tight concave areas. I had kids once and no money, and this worked for me.

[GaryR52]

Well, I'm not giving up the digital stuff entirely. If I can finance it out of my other work, at some point, I'll still do that, too. For now, though, I think it makes better sense to just do some sculpture and let the world see it.

I like your materials/process. I may give that a try sometime.

Meanwhile, in addition to my organic forms, I've been developing a series of models (digital, again) for direct metal sculptures. These are more nearly geometric, though; a different style, entirely. What I've done, so far, is to create some 3D models and I'm now generating cutting and folding patterns, for sheet metal, from the models. My plan is to take a 24" x 36" sheet of aluminum or galvanized steel, transfer my printed pattern to its surface, then cut it out and fold it to assemble the sculpture. I'll then join the seams with some type of adhesive for metals (maybe Liquid Metal) and either spray paint it or apply Gilders Paste to the surfaces. Out of a 24" x 36" sheet, I can probably get a sculpture in the range of about 6" to 8" in height. If I can find larger sheets, the size can be increased, of course. Lowe's has sheet aluminum in 24" x 36" sheets for $31, so this could at least become a way to generate maquettes for large scale metal sculptures in heavier gauge steel and aluminum. Here's a couple of pics of the models.

P.S.: I'm trying to find the stuff I used back in the early eighties. It was called something like Liquid Metal and it was a metal bonding adhesive paste that comes in a tube. I used it to make some cardboard maquettes look like metal. Once hardened, you can buff and polish it with a mototool. Now I'm having difficulty finding anything like it.

P.P.S: I've found something called Gorilla Glue, which is supposed to be able to bond any material and it's waterproof, as well.

Now, you're probably wondering why I don't just weld or braze it, right? Well, I don't have the equipment, for one thing, and my only experience with brazing (back in the early eighties, again) was a dismal failure. I was trying to braze copper and couldn't get it to adhere, no matter how much pickling and how much flux I used. So, I'd rather just glue it together with a metal bonding adhesive and be done with it.

P.P.P.S: Better, still, is 3M Structural Bonding Tape 9244, which is a double-sided high-strength epoxy adhesive tape that can bond all kinds of materials, including sheet metal. No muss, no fuss.

Gary

[bluedogshuz]

I remember liquid metal!!! Probably find similar product in plumber section at Home Despot. I'm trying laminating fiberglass mat with epoxy resin into diverse shapes. Also fiberglass cloth soaked with epoxy over balloons to cut up for curvilinier surfaces. Sounds like the circus...

[GaryR52]

Yes! Precisely where I found it before. When I said I couldn't find it, I was really talking about finding any mention of it online, but...

So much for 3M Structural Bonding Tape 9244. Trying to find any company that actually has any is like looking for the Holy Grail. I called 3M directly and it's like they don't want to sell me anything. I hate companies who behave that way. Why do they even make the stuff if it isn't going to be readily available?!

I like that balloon form method. They use the same technique, only with much larger balloons, to build ferro-cement domes. Speaking of which, there's another great material for outdoor sculpture.

Gary

[bluedogshuz]

Well,
Theballoon thing didn't EXACTLY work. The glass held but the resin ran all over the place. It certainly is an interesting form however, kind of a Louise Bergouis type thing. I'll just use foam or maybe paper mache over balloons to make the globe/fountain. I like ferro-cement, what agreat medium! How's about bondo... I wonder if that is easily worked?

[GaryR52]

Being a body putty, I'm sure Bondo is quite workable. It's also very compatible with fiberglass work.

I came across a polyurethane foam called Foam-A-Last, from General Plastics Manufacturing, that comes in several grades and can be ordered in different sized sheets in thicknesses up to 12". They show examples of large scale sculpture done with the stuff, which can be cut and bonded together to form any size block for carving. It's available in several densities and the price is very reasonable, too. I'm seriously considering using this as a core material for fiberglass sculpture. http://www.generalplastics.com/produ...il.php?pid=19&

P.S.: Check this out! http://www.sunmatecushions.com/sothermo.htm

Gary

[Arrow]

http://www.industrialpolymers.com/products.html

This company has a great demo video on their styroSpray hard coatings for foam. Also the water expanding urethane is fun stuff.

Nice people. Family biz if I remember correctly.

[GaryR52]

Yep, I saw that StyroSpray page yesterday, when I was researching hard shell coatings. Looks like the right stuff, alright. Wish I could find some pricing data, though.

Gary

[bluedogshuz]

Good research!! I have been looking for a core material other than wood for epoxy/cement exterior Sculpts and the sculpture foam may be the trick. Anything I decide on needs slight flexural strength when hardened with epoxy resin/fiberglass, non organic (ie. no expansion-shrinkage) and preferably drillable for temporary positioning of components before permanent joining with epoxy/glass. It is a tall order because most products either require strengthening with epoxy {messy/ time consumming) or they are incredibly expensive. A friend of mine wanted me to look into a GP product that was used for under facing of a building being stuccoed. After reading blogs by contractors they staid they would not use the gypsum/fiberglass sheathed material in a shower. Yikes!! What will happen to that 4 story building if a leak develops in the walls? Makes me think we do better research sometimes than builders. Matter of fact I was coating foam blocks with fibercement long before architects were for building fascia and trim. Strong? I used mine for custom bases for Marble carvings! Just shows to go ya!

[GaryR52]

LOL. I know just what you mean. In my research on the lost foam casting method, I've come across several industrial companies using it for things like casting aluminum engine blocks, and they all talk about it like it's some revolutionary new process to use a foam pattern that burns out when the metal is poured! Heck, I first read about lost foam casting for sculpture in an old book I read over twenty years ago!

Gary

[GaryR52]

Bluedogshuz, thanks for the tip on Design Cast 66 (http://www.design-cast.com/products/products.html)! I was re-reading this thread (since the forums have been pretty slow, lately), and discovered I hadn't checked out this material yet. Thanks!

I'm thinking maybe Design Cast 66 would be a good material to try, but, can you get the same look you'd get with fiberglass reinforced polyester resin (i.e., smooth and glossy)? I'm assuming adding pigment is no problem, either.

The AA-6 and AA-7 sealers look like the ticket for making outdoor pieces weatherable, too. I'm wondering, though, if this stuff is removable, doesn't that imply that one has to re-apply more of it, periodically? Does it wear off, over time?

Gary

[iron ant]

Gary,I tryed to tell ya, without actually having work produced and trying to sell on line,it just aint gonna happen.I like your designs and ideas,but there is a point they have to be produced 3-d for a gallery or collector to take your work sereous and lay down the jack.Unfortently budget keeps most of us from really doing a lot of the things we would like to do.I invested every sale into my shop,tools equipment,for the first six years of my career,then I had the tools to produce the goods,you could do the same if you get your work in 3-d where someone can buy more than an idea?You are on the right track because you seem to have the motivation,sence,and skill to pull off your ideas.I look forward to seeing what you actually produce........arty ant

[GaryR52]

Well, I did say you could tell me "I told you so," didn't I?

Thanks, Ant. I'm chomping at the bit to get started, with the only thing holding me back being (as usual) money (or the lack thereof). It won't be much longer, though. Meanwhile, I've been "practicing" with everything I can find around the house; i.e., grabbing any unused wire hangers and twisting them into small armatures, etc.

I'm seriously considering Blue's suggestion of using Design Cast instead of fiberglass. I've been reading about it on their website (which is highly detailed; everything you'd ever want to know about it is there) and it sounds like a very versatile and superior product, even if a little finnicky in the preparation/application department.

I've already staked out my garage as my "studio" space and my courtyard will look great with some outdoor pieces displayed on pedestals.

Gary

[bluedogshuz]

Gary, I'm excited for you. Been working in my garage for years even ehen I have a studio. I'm going to tell you something design-cast disagree with me on... I use 66B, anbd your right the polymer milk has to be exact 10:100. However having said that I don't follow the water content, because I soak smear and knead the paste/ liquid into #6 fiberglass tape cloth and the smooth it on to the styrofoam. with successive layers of 66 paste I get a rock hard finish. For color mix in typical powdwer cement collors, I like black. The finished product will chip so if that happens it is not as noticable, unless of course the piece is white. As for sealers, I don't know as I apply the copper coat and have not had disintegration in over !0 years of floridas extreme heat. You just have to play with the stuff. Short fiberglass ie 1/4 inch in great volume will give incredible strength. As for the surface being smooth, no way... the stuff is to gooeey. It can be sanded, it cant be tooled like plaster. I do lay up, if you wrap it inpolyproplyene you will get a glass finish. PS Bought some sculpty clay. Can you leave a sheet metal armature in that when you fire it in the oven? Have a great day!

[GaryR52]

Hmmm...depending upon which part of your reply I read, it sounds like DC-66 is either more forgiving than the manufacturer claims, or less.

Did you mean to say it CAN'T be sanded, or it CAN be? If it can, then that would mean a smooth surface can be attained (with some elbow grease). If not, I can use an epoxy gelcoat over it, I guess, though that adds even more to the cost, plus it seems redundant.

Yes, you certainly can leave a metal armature inside a Sculpey piece while baking it. It's only going to be in the oven for 15 minutes at 275 degrees (F). Not nearly enough heat to affect the metal. If you're using a combustible material as an armature, that's another story, of course. Anyway, the piece I posted above doesn't even require an armature. This stuff is pretty firm, even in its raw state and, unlike other modeling clays, it won't unwind on you. You can twist the heck out of it and it will retain whatever shape you put it in, pretty much. I've never had to use an armature with it before, but then, the pieces I've done with it were pretty small. That's its drawback, I think; it's twice as expensive as Roma Plastilina, so it's best used for jewelry making; not economical enough for sculpture.

Gary

[bluedogshuz]

I'm sorry I wasn't clear about 66, yes it can be sanded easily particularily after say 48 hours. It has aluminum in it so tools like rasp are downright ugly to work with. He will recommend 1/2" thickness. I never do that because it's so expensive. I am working on a piece right now that I applied a very thin layer of design cast to plasterers fiberglass tape with an open weave over EPS. You can punch your finger through it! I was going to trash the piece but everyone likes it..so.. I am laying up fiberglass epoxy over the form to give it strength, can be done, don't recommend it! 1/4" of 66 with a generous amount of chopped glass will give you an incredible durable piece, but you still need a top coat of 66 without glass so you can sand to a smooth finish. Its about a little harder than alabaster if youve ever carved. The primary draw at all of this material is its fabulous for outdoor sculpture and lightweight! Sell it, glue it with liquid nails to a concrete stepping stone and your done!

[GaryR52]

Agreed on the thickness-to-cost ratio. I would think 1/4" is quite sufficient. Thanks for the tip on the glass and the second glassless layer. That sounds like the way to go. How thick do you make the second, sanded layer?

I've carved soapstone before, but not alabaster. Also, plaster blocks. By the way, do you know of any places where I can get aerated concrete blocks?

Gary

[bluedogshuz]

Gary,
Juust thick enough to avoid the glass. TRICK: use a color top coat so you know if you hit the white you've gone to far. As for the concrete I would like to see a thread on the thecnical aspects of concrete, especially in the public art arena. There is now semi translucent concrete, light weight concrete etc. etc. I would like to prestress and cast concrete forms for assemblage. It's beautiful, you can carve it, cast it, embed fiber optics etc. I think assemblage is more difficult because it needs to be light and fastening bolts etc need to be neutral due to the acidic nature. What say we call for information??

[GaryR52]

Great idea! I'm interested in concrete, also, especially the aerated variety, as it's light weight, cheap, and easily carved, yet strong and weather resistant. (sounds like a commercial for the stuff). Trying to find any online has proved difficult, though. I did find one supplier: http://www.safecrete.com/aac/product...valueblock.cfm

Also intriguing for sculpture is an animal called "aluminum foam." It's actually aerated highly porous aluminum that comes in several grades of translucency, the most translucent of which passes light like a window. It's pretty expensive stuff, though:

http://www.alusion.com/product.html

http://www.cymat.com/Cymat_Foam_Products.htm

http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/mmc/people/dave/

http://www.ergaerospace.com/duocel/aluminum.htm


http://www.grantadesign.com/solutions/metalfoams.htm


Gary