Danish cartoon

[sculptor]

Can anyone post the cartoon of the prophet of terror?

"news" media hyping lotsa screamers without showing the cartood about which, they seem to be screaming.

reminds me of Janet Jackson's left nipple (which I also didn't see) but heard reactions to many many many, ad infinitum, times

sculpton

[Merlion]

I would not post these cartoons, as Muslims consider them as very offensive and blaspermous. One cartoon shows their Prophet Muhammed as a terrrost with a bomb with fuse in the turban on his head. The anger is for real. Buildings have been torched and people have been killed.

On the other hand, one can dig out these pictures by Google or other internet search engines. Here is one article with quite a few of these cartoons.

[sculptor]

I used to have a dream wherein, i was on a spit of land between 2 pools.
I tried to create a ripple in one pool by tossing in a pebble.
no effect
so I picked up a rock and threw it in
no effect so i found a bigger rock(40 pounder) and heaved it in
no effect
so I went and found a boulder and after valiant struggles managed to pick it up and heave it in
no effect

pondering the imponderable (yhwh?)

i accidentally nudged a very small pebble into the other pool
the ripples remagnified themselves ever more violently untill
the pool was shattered

and
I had thought that the dream was about youthfull passions and love.

that being said:
The reaction seems to far outweigh the action

[fused]

I think the reaction to the cartoon is justified and yet the violent actions (which cannot be justified) won't disprove what some people may perceive as a hint of truth in the bomb image.

Some wonder if this outrage is politically motivated and not just a response based on faith.

[imike]

I find it ridiculous that it was published by the media itself. As a media, they should be mindful and should not have published in the first place. If they have not done that, it would not have caused so many problems and innocent people are killed because of this...

[HappySculpting]

Yes, the media shouldn't have published it out of respect for their beliefs. It's too bad, though, that their is so much hypocrisy. Didn't they burn the American flag in response?

I think that the Muslims should remember that newspapers have made fun of Christ and depicted sacriligious things many a time. It would be nice if they only tried to control the actions of their own people in not depicting anything offensive about Muhammed. When you try and control the whole world and say everyone has to act as you want them to is when we'll have violence to make them do what you want. Not good.

[daaub]

The proponents of free speech should not back down one inch to those who use violence as a means to control society.

[sculptor]

Originally Posted by daaub

The proponents of free speech should not back down one inch to those who use violence as a means to control society.

Well said!
Well said indeed.

and

If our (u.s.) media are to be trusted,
their bottom line was that 2 radical clerics actually created a modified version of the cartoons which were much more offensive, then, using them, traveled around creating strife and anti western and european violence.

assuming that this version of the story is close to an objective reality, then squashing the story only plays into the hands of the perpetrators of violence

again,
censorship is inherently evil
and serves no purpose greater than deceit

[RCFA-Raven]

Originally Posted by daaub

The proponents of free speech should not back down one inch to those who use violence as a means to control society.

Political correctness has just went why too far especially in the US. We tend to over conpensate for the ratical groups while alowing the submissive ones to be trampled.

[JamesW]

Originally Posted by RCFA-Raven

Political correctness has just went why too far especially in the US. We tend to over conpensate for the ratical groups while alowing the submissive ones to be trampled.

What a load of non-sense....
Political correctness as it has become labelled means that you can't vilify people on the grounds of race, religion, gender, age etc
Whats wrong with that? Do you think its OK to say that a particular race or gender all have a 'bad' or negative characteristic?
Do you think that its OK to say that all people from the US are dumbf**ks like you? Of course not. Thats political correctness.
How dare you hide your hatred behind free speech...free speech not only provides us with rights but also responsibilities.
The cartoons I have seen are extremely insulting & inflammatory....gee good timing guys.... I can assure you if Jesus was portrayed as a knife wielding assassin there are plenty of countries where there would be rioting in the streets..& flag burning
And another thing........
definition of 'conpensate' ? maybe get a dictionary or try spell check.....
and 'ratical groups' - would that be some sort of support group for rodents ?
and a 'submissive group' - don't tell me, that would be white , middle class, middle aged men - right?
Yeah right
James

[HappySculpting]

I can assure you if Jesus was portrayed as a knife wielding assassin there are plenty of countries where there would be rioting in the streets..& flag burning

There probably have been a few of these cartoons. Any Christian that would act up violently isn't a Christian. Just as the Muslims say that they aren't acting as Muslims should by being violent. A Christian additude would be to pray that these unloving cartoonist would change their ways. You can't control people but try to. You can try and influence them by love.

Violence is a personal choice and each person bears their responsibility for how they respond to hatred as displayed by the hateful cartoons.

[RCFA-Raven]

Originally Posted by JamesW

How dare you hide your hatred behind free speech

Dearest James,

Very presumptious of you. However, I am not as axpressive as I should be from time to time.

I personally don't hate any group of people and don't affiliate myself with any such group that HATES certain religions, races, or other groups of people except for child pornography. I personally find certain art/comedy distasteful, however I think people have the right to choose for themselves.

As far as Muslims go, If the women and men in this religion are happy being in it or living the life they lead, more power to them. But from seeing the people's crys on tv, I don't think they've been a happy people for some time. I myself am happy to have been able to make a choice because I am sure you would have watched a clip of my execution by now or I would be mentally handicaped by the blows to my head. Either way, I would not be allowed to have made the choice to post to this board or not.

And as far as submissive groups go you, I consider the dearest friend who I ever had in this group. She was brutally murdered a few years back and I have never even hated her killer--don't wish to see his face again but don't have him. Only feelings that I had toward him was being hurt by his action and feel some pitty for him because he will have to live with what he did.



While I think certain things should be ban so that other's rights are preserved, if we put a ban on everything that people find distasteful & unpleasant than what is left?

(PS I find the name you called me to be very distaistful, but that didn't stop you from saying it, did it? You brought yourself right down to the level you were accusing me & the cartoonists of being in, didn't it? But right to my point, that was your CHOICE.)

[G. Murdoch]

Several weeks ago, the NATIONAL POST (A daily Canadian broadsheet) published an essay written by the editor of the Danish newspaper which had published the cartoons originally. He told the story of why they had the cartoons commissioned, and why they were published, and his opinion of the ensuing controversy. It is worth a read. To paraphrase:

An author of childrens books wanted to illustrate his manuscript, but was unable to find anyone willing to depict the prophet due to dogmatic restrictions. The newspaper learned of this, and asked many cartoonists to submit cartoons of the prophet. Most declined to do so. Of the dozen or so that participated, several were satirical about the newspapers request, several were satirical about the restrictions on depicting the prophet, and several were satirical about the prophet, Islamic fundamentalism, and terrorism.

Nothing much happened for months. A Danish Imam added and altered the cartoons to make them much more insulting and inflammatory than the originals. He then took these cartoons on a tour of the Middle East with the express intent to foment outrage. It worked.

Part of the editor's explanation for his decision to publish the originals was his faith in the vast moderate majority of Muslims in the Netherlands. As a means of saying "You are a part of our society. We satirise everything."

Contrary to what James has written, whenever Christian icons are debased (remember the crucifix in urine?), people are certainly upset, but flags are not burned, people do not riot or murder in response.

I spent several months in Morrocco in '93, had a wonderful time. While I was there I was careful to be observant and respectful of local customs. During the fast of Ramadan, I did not eat, drink, or smoke in public from sunrise to sunset etc...This I consider to be common courtesy and common sense. However, in Canada, while many Muslims observe the fast of Ramadan, the rest of the Canadian population is not expected to do so.

In the modern secular West, political and religious satire is part of the custom. While some of it is certainly in poor taste, it is a part of life. Accept it as part of the price of admission to living in a free and open society.

Graham

[JamesW]

Hi Tamara
While I agree with what you're saying - can you provide evidence of a cartoon that personifies Jesus as a murdering terrorist ? Don't get me wrong, I do not support violence. There are plenty of countries where the depiction of Christ in a similar manner would provoke a similar violent response is all I'm saying.
Regards
James

[Blacksun]

I have looked at the cartoons in question and found them neither funny nor insulting / demeaning. The reaction of the muslim world to these stupid cartoons demonstrates the growing danger they pose to the civilized world. There will be a point that PC tolerance of inappropriate human behavior (such as demonstrated in the French riots, the ongoing terrorist attacks in Iraq, and the worldwide riots over the "prophet" cartoons) will end. This "clash of cultures" will end in an all out worldwide war. The so-called "Moderate" or "Peaceful" muslims had better start standing up and actively joining forces with those that oppose Violent Muslim extremists.

[HappySculpting]

While I agree with what you're saying - can you provide evidence of a cartoon that personifies Jesus as a murdering terrorist ? Don't get me wrong, I do not support violence. There are plenty of countries where the depiction of Christ in a similar manner would provoke a similar violent response is all I'm saying.

It could promote violence with some people if there was such a cartoon. But those people wouldn't be true Christians. Are the deaths of people the fault of the cartoon or the person rioting? Don't really know the answer for sure but it seems to me that anyone who acts up that way isn't living up to their beliefs.

There are always going to be people who write things that are wrong and offensive, to kill because of it, that's the bigger wrong and radical. We don't need radicalism. We don't need hate. We need love to smooth over the badness of other people and hope they'll change.

To have a belief system that causes you to want to kill others if your God is blasphemed is radical.

[JamesW]

Originally Posted by RCFA-Raven

Dearest James,

Very presumptious of you. However, I am not as axpressive as I should be from time to time.

I personally don't hate any group of people and don't affiliate myself with any such group that HATES certain religions, races, or other groups of people except for child pornography. I personally find certain art/comedy distasteful, however I think people have the right to choose for themselves.

As far as Muslims go, If the women and men in this religion are happy being in it or living the life they lead, more power to them. But from seeing the people's crys on tv, I don't think they've been a happy people for some time. I myself am happy to have been able to make a choice because I am sure you would have watched a clip of my execution by now or I would be mentally handicaped by the blows to my head. Either way, I would not be allowed to have made the choice to post to this board or not.

And as far as submissive groups go you, I consider the dearest friend who I ever had in this group. She was brutally murdered a few years back and I have never even hated her killer--don't wish to see his face again but don't have him. Only feelings that I had toward him was being hurt by his action and feel some pitty for him because he will have to live with what he did.



While I think certain things should be ban so that other's rights are preserved, if we put a ban on everything that people find distasteful & unpleasant than what is left?

(PS I find the name you called me to be very distaistful, but that didn't stop you from saying it, did it? You brought yourself right down to the level you were accusing me & the cartoonists of being in, didn't it? But right to my point, that was your CHOICE.)

Dear 'Raven'
How can you say that Muslims are unhappy because 'from seeing the peoples crys on TV, I don't think that they've been a happy people for a long time' ?
It is exactly those kind of inaccurate generalisations that portray certain groups in a negative light that 'political correctness' opposes. Are you unaware that Muslims live all over the world and are as many & varied as any other group?
And talk about 'presumptious' you then go on to say that if you were a Muslim you would not have been allowed to post on this board and would have been executed ! What a bigotted ignorant attitude you display here... how can you tell whether the people that post on this board are Muslim or not? Can you tell if I am Muslim?
You then use the sad loss of your friend (what a terrible thing to go through - truly my heart goes out to you) as an example of how 'political correctness' allows certain groups to be trampled on. I'm sorry but I don't understand what your saying here...could you maybe list the types of people that you think 'political correctness' allows to be trampled so that I can understand what you are trying to say here?
And yes the name a called you was distasteful - it was analogy, an example of what becomes OK if we throw so-called 'political correctness' out the window.
I don't think we should ban every thing that someone might find distasteful however if we create an image that is intentionally insulting & derogatory (particularly of someones religion) I don't think we should find a negative response surprising.
I wonder what would happen if the New York Times published a satirical cartoon of Jesus portrayed as a marauding marine raping a pillaging the peaceful people of Iraq?
I guess we all know the answer to that one.
James

[HappySculpting]

I wonder what would happen if the New York Times published a satirical cartoon of Jesus portrayed as a marauding marine raping a pillaging the peaceful people of Iraq?
I guess we all know the answer to that one.

Well, I go to bible meetings 3 times a week and consider myself a strong Christian. So I guess I'd be the one offended by such a cartoon. However, offended I would be, violent I would not. There isn't room in the Christian way of life to be violent.

I don't know much about Muslim beliefs but I'm curious as to why so many take to violence. What is it in their beliefs that allows them to think it's o.k. to be violent? I do agree that the non violent Muslims need to stand up and show how there beliefs don't condone what's happened.

[JamesW]

A couple of last comments....

Lets not forget that it was a small minority of Muslims who reacted to theses cartoons in a violent way.

All religions have their fundamentalist/radical elements.

I wish that the other threads that discuss sculpture were as active as this one !

Peace
James

[HappySculpting]

Yes, were more fired up about this than we are about sculpting. Now if there was a cartoon slamming sculpting, that's when I'd take to the streets and perform horrible acts! Just kidding!

[sculptor]

Originally Posted by G. Murdoch

...the NATIONAL POST ... published an essay written by the editor of the Danish newspaper which had published the cartoons originally. ... . A Danish Imam added and altered the cartoons to make them much more insulting and inflammatory than the originals. He then took these cartoons on a tour of the Middle East with the express intent to foment outrage. It worked.
...Accept it as part of the price of admission to living in a free and open society.

Graham

YES---that's the cartoon I wanted to see when I opened this conversation---

bye the bye---the Danish Iman was the real culpret here, not only did he wish to foment violence, but he did so by depicting the profit--and I would assume, depicting the profit in a less than complimentary manner.(which is a violation of his claimed religion)hypocrit(sp?)

As I see it, the church holds 2 values
1) is community
2) voiced best by Soren Kierkagard places an infinite distance between our ability and that of GOD-which makes us all more or less equal, and thereby brothers(and sisters) in our struggles in this world

So we may yell and scream at and insult each other, but we're still all in this together

one thought about political correctness--in 1939 in Germany, you couldn't get any more politically correct than by being a national socialist

times change
may we all get beyond silly phrases like political correctness, and find and appreciate the depths of each others true souls.

rod
sculptor

thanx for the post Graham

[RCFA-Raven]

Originally Posted by HappySculpting

Yes, were more fired up about this than we are about sculpting. Now if there was a cartoon slamming sculpting, that's when I'd take to the streets and perform horrible acts! Just kidding!

Yes, I've been in a slump for a couple of weeks! Perhaps I can direct this new energy into my sculpting! lol!

[RCFA-Raven]

I said that, "I don't THINK they've been a happy people for some time" Right or wrong it my OPINION. I think people are interesting because of their difference of opinion.

I don't know if you are a Muslim or not. If you make me choose, based on your words, I will say I don't believe you are by birth based on my dealings with Muslim men I know in my community.

Anyway, I accept your apology. Oviously this is an emotional issue you have and I would be interested in hearing more about why you feel the way you do.

Warmest Wishes,

Raven

PS(IF there were a Muslim man that would have me as his wife and wouldn't bash my head in, I would have to admit that I would have to feel sorry for him. I am a bit mouthy and opinionated in public and surely would embarrass the heck out of him! As a matter of fact I think my American husband would like to do that from time to time, but he is truely a wonderful and understanding man. IF YA HAVEN'T FIGURED IT OUT BY NOW I WOULD RATHER MAKE FUN OF MYSELF THEN SOMEONE ELSE.)

[G. Murdoch]

I find it interesting that James continues to insist that if Jesus were portrayed as a terrorist, there would ensue violent outrage in plenty of countries. This statement is just flat out wrong. Jesus has been portrayed in far more demeaning and derogatory manner than any of the images published in JYLLANDS POSTEN, and riots haven't happened.

Of course followers of Jesus have had thier day in the sun as violent oppressors and murderers of people who did not agree with them (anyone remember the inquisition?).

Both the extreme response of radical Muslims over the cartoons, and the dark history of the Catholic church, are examples of people marching under the legitimising banner of God whilst pursuing economic and political agendas.

Graham

[JamesW]

OK Graham
A dare....
Walk through Italy, Some Baltic countries, Northern Ireland, some Latin American countries, etc with a derogatory image of Jesus held above your head & see how you go...
Do you really believe the response would be considered or moderate ?
C'mon you could probably try it closer to home....
Let me know how you go...
James