Translate to bronze...

[Araich]

How hard and costly would it be to produce a mold and then a bronze edition of this work?



Would the folds cause nightmares?
It is small.

[edit: fix image]

[obseq]

Ariach,

Is this a digital rendering of the work or have you already rendered some sort of maquette?


I would be very curious regarding your own process as
I'm also toiling in mold production for bronze myself!

[edit: no need to repeat the image in a quote - RH]

oops--did I repost the image too? My mistake.

[jsimms]

Depending on how small you are talking, it would appear the piece could easily be fabricated.
john

[Araich]

obseq - nope, thats actually painted steel. I don't use the computer for anything but publishing the images of the work. I do clip out the background (shot against white) for my website.

I cannot imagin working with plaster or wax again, after years with steel... and sorta hope that I can take a painted work to a foundry and forget it.

Is this a bad thing?

I've done some messing around with casting, and enjoyed it, but I'm weary that a move to include bronze will drag me out of the workshop, and have me a slave to the process.

[RuBert]

I am surprised you build all of your sculpture maquettes from steel - they are so very fluid. I'm quite sure they could be cast, but I would probably just try to fabricate them if I were making them.

However other sculptors might disagree, for example Tom Otterness is having some amazing casting done outside of studio that he then reassembles.

I was at his studio recently and posted these pictures and links.

http://sculpture.net/community/showt...p?threadid=289

It made me want to cast even though I don't really like the process. I'm sorry I can't give you price information for casting, but I can tell you that it will be very much worth your while to get bids from several different casters. The difference in pricing may surprise you, and you will eventually find a price and result combination that is attractive. The best foundry can then be developed into a ongoing quality relationship.

I think your piece would make a very nice limited edition.

ps - photo of casting sections in Tom's studio

[Araich]

When you say fabricate - do you mean weld bronze elements together?

[jsimms]

I did mean welding bronze parts together! Silicon bronze welds beautifully (Tig or mig) and would really lend itself to your smaller pieces. I've got a lot of scrap sheet and plate and would be happy to send you some, though it is pretty heavy.
john

[gordonrogers]

ooooh! welding bronze sounds interesting - an everyday Mig (with the correct wire and gas) is all thats needed?

[Araich]

I'm guessing you would need a different liner...

How toxic is it to grind/sand etc?

[jsimms]

You only need silicon bronze wire (I use .035) and argon ('though I use argon /helium mix). No special liner! Unlike copper, silicon bronze is very hard. It's biggest advantage is the beauty of the metal itself and the variation in coloration if left to develop its own patina relative to the environment.

I have a lot of smaller scraps of C655 in varying thickness ( .083 through .25) and would be happy to send a few pounds to anyone for the cost of postage. It weighs 5.5# per square foot in .125" thickness.
john

[jsimms]

I don't believe there is any toxicity problem working with sil/bronze. It hasn't bothered me! YET?

It does grind and sand easily and nicely, and buffs beautifully with 4.5" 3m discs. It is easily colored with a myriad of chemicals and a dip in any hot spring should give serendipitous results.
john

[Araich]

oooo I'm going to look into this!

Way over here in Australia it's not realistic to ship scrap, but I'm sure I can find everything available here.

What's it like to roll etc?

[jsimms]

Rolls and forms like carbon steel! Be sure to get silicon bronze (C655), not architectural, bearing, or aluminum bronze.
j

[fritchie]

Araich - I’m sorry I just saw this. You really don’t want to cast that form. The close spacing between folds would lead to “flashing” with investment molds. (Flashing refers to thin sheets of metal penetrating into tiny crevices in the mold.) With ceramic shell, flashing shouldn’t be a problem, but any cleanup (grinding, etc.) within the spaces still would be difficult.

This shape clearly calls for fabrication, and I expect you could find a shop willing to do a run for you.

A very experienced local founder has cast almost all my bronzes, though I chase and finish them myself. He uses tig welding and silicon bronze exclusively.

[Araich]

One thing that I've realised is that if I were to edition painted work such as this, I would be better off just making it in steel.
Aside from the those where a bronze look is needed that is.

What of a work like this remade in bonze?

[fritchie]

I had another thought overnight, not unusually. It's about 50:50 whether this piece could be done in bronze more easily through casting or through fabrication. If a copy used to make a mold is cut along the leftmost fold in the illustration, the two halves each would be easy to mold and cast. Generally, complex pieces are done in sections and then welded together after individual finishing.

Conceptually the piece is a construction, made of flat sections which are shaped by rolling and then welded together. That’s the way bronze copies would be made if fabricated.

Another thought I omitted last night - any bronze casting should be welded with the same metal used for the cast, so the colors will be consistent. If you use a semi-transparent patina, this will be critical.

Bronze patinas come in two distinct flavors, opaque and semi-transparent. Blues, greens, and so on are made with copper compounds, typically cupric nitrate. These are opaque. Golds through browns and blacks are made with sulfur compounds, typically “liver of sulfur”, or potassium sulfide. The sulfides are quite transparent, becoming less so as the color gets darker. Ferric nitrate, another patining agent, gives red colors, and also is semi-transparent.

[jsimms]

Either one could be easily done in bronze and would look great!
I feel bronze has much more "life" than steel, particularily painted steel. See attached for a shot of a bronze wall sconce I just patinaed. Don't get me wrong, RH, I think your work is great, but this might be a direction to try.
j

[jsimms]

attached is a shot of a "raw" bronze flat bar that was coarse ground them buffed with a 3m disc. I'll patina it tomorrow the show how it comes out.
j

[Araich]

I can see the 'life' in bronze. It's a totally different feel to steel.

Right now I have a healthy to-and-fro with steel, and don't much want to go to another material in the making. But this idea of fabricating has me intrigued.

I think I may just have to visit some foundries and look at the costs.

I'm at the point where steel is (thank the heavens) paying my rent. Bronze may just end up keeping me in rags.

What's the experience in pricing your work like?
An equivalent steel work in bronze would alter the gallery price how much?

I'm heading to bronze regardless of the money, just how often and to what degree I'm afraid is very much about the money

A stable patina would be a dream!

[jsimms]

The perceived value of bronze is signficantly more than steel,
and the only change in cost to you is the material cost. I would guess that you could demand twice as much for one of your pieces in bronze. The patination process is actually quite easy, and you can add a lot of character to a piece that you can't possibly get with paint.

Sil-bronze is slightly heavier than steel and here it runs around $3 to $6 per pound depending on the sheet size. Go to alaskan copper [/url] http://www.alaskop for more info. I'd bet its pretty pricy way down south!
j

[fritchie]

Araich - This refers to your post and figure of 5.10. I assume your dimensions are in inches, so it is about 55 inches tall. Depending on the foundry, that could be made in 1 or 2 sections. The form looks simple. (I assume the box-like pieces at top and bottom are hollow, about 1/16 - 1/8 inch thick.)

Thickness can be a problem with bronze. Anything more than about 1/8 to 3/16 inch typically is cast hollow, but there is a size range which is too thick to be solid and too thin to be hollow.

[Araich]

Fritchie - dimensions are in cm's.

I've decided to hand a small work over to a foundry to cast whole, and should see the first wax in a couple of days. I'm just going to let them do the complete process, and learn from their approach... I've picked up many ideas from this thread, and expect to try some fabrication in bronze later in the year.

The big question now is what patina?



I've no idea!

Also, what do I call the painted steel original now? Artist proof? Or just 'original work'? And does it affect the edition number?

I'm going to do 5 of this one.

[edit: fix image]

[rderr.com]

Dear Araich

The European legislation is very interesting for these legal definitions of "orginal work" and artist profs. A work is considered an "orginal" if limited to, I belive, 12 or 14 numbers. The first 4 are stamped 1...4 ea [epruve d'artist , artist prof]| 12 or 14. Limited edition is 1...x|x. Anne of Brux. can probably refin my memory of the problem.

ps How do I do a spellllllllllllllll check with this and in francai a ca.

[fritchie]

Araich - I've described some materials used in patinating bronzes above. Patina simply describes the surface color, whether it develops through age (most preferred, but takes years) or through studio processes (takes maybe an hour or so, with preparation taking maybe 1 - 3 days).

Bronze will naturally oxidize in dry air to a shade of gold, brown, or black, or in more moist air to a shade of green to blue. Studio techniques to get these same effects much faster are what I described above. As far as “original” and “edition”, I’m not sure the U. S. has a legal definition, though rderr describes the European (perhaps only French) position. I might say the steel form is a prototype or something similar. It is not an “artist’s proof” because of the different material.

Interesting points. I’d like to hear other replies as well.

[Araich]

I think I'll get a few cast at once so I can try some common patinas out. Transparent ones.

Any good links to view patinas online? And the process?

At this point I intend to make all the original work as completed steel sculptures, which I will sell to offset the casting costs.