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  #1  
Old 11-10-2006, 02:04 PM
Elsie Elsie is offline
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Concrete casting - need help please

Hello

I am new to this site and to casting concrete.

I am having a few problems with my cast objects resembling swiss cheese, they have so many air bubbles in them.

I have tried making the mix as dry as possible and hand packing my moulds but need a wetter mix in some cases for more detail. This is a problem as they look awful.

I have heard that a vibration table is best. Does anyone have an idea on how to make one? or any other solution to my problem?

Is there a way of putting on a surface layer after removal from the mould to fine tune the pieces? If so what mix do i use and will it hold up to temperatures down to -15 degrees.

please help as i am out of ideas.

Thanks
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  #2  
Old 11-10-2006, 04:10 PM
F.C. White F.C. White is offline
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Re: Concrete casting - need help please

I wouldn't resurface the piece after it's cast and set. This will only separate later with age and weather fluxuations.

My suggestion would be to pour the piece with a more liquified solution, in stages, and try to eliminate air pockets as you go. A vibrating rod can be made using steel round stock and an air, or electric, impact chissle or hammer. You'd have to fabricate an end to the round stock that would mimic those of the tooling designed to fit in the equipment's chuck. Otherwise, place your mold onto a rocker base platform you can fabricate with 2x's and plywood and manipulate to and fro during the phases of filling the void.
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  #3  
Old 11-10-2006, 04:13 PM
F.C. White F.C. White is offline
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Re: Concrete casting - need help please

Perhaps fabricate a simple wood plate cover for the mold's opening that can be secured to the mold, itself, and a shop vac can be attached to to create the vaccume necessary to draw out any air pockets from the mix.
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  #4  
Old 11-10-2006, 11:17 PM
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ahirschman ahirschman is offline
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Re: Concrete casting - need help please

You should also try vibrating the mold.

To do this, take any small sized motor and attach an offset weight to the motor shaft. This can be made by clamping any thing with weight to the shaft. If you have the equipment then drill some steel bar to fit the shaft and put a set screw to keep it in place.

I would then attach the motor to a 2x4 or something that will cushion the force so as not to damage your mold. Or you could try clamping this to a table, but I think placing it on the side of the mold will work best.

Use the small and large steel hose clamps if you have to.

I think that this will make the cement settle into all voids, and it is easy to try.

Also, you will probably need bigger motors for bigger molds. You should not have trouble finding motors. They are everywhere.

Ari.


Good luck.

Ari.
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  #5  
Old 11-11-2006, 01:32 AM
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Landseer Landseer is offline
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Re: Concrete casting - need help please

Quote:
Originally Posted by F.C. White

My suggestion would be to pour the piece with a more liquified solution,
This makes WEAK crumbly concrete, concrete needs to be mixed with only as much water as it takes to MOISTEN the dry stuff, it should not pour like pancake syrup unless you don't care if it winds up weaker than plaster of Paris.
I never use vibrating anything, it can settle heavier chunkier aggregate down into the face of the mold which isn't a great idea, I put on rubber gloves and hand pack the concrete in and work it, the key to good concrete is less water and working it, not making chicken soup out of it, dumping it in like plaster, vibrating it and walking away.

Here is one of my concrete casts done this way, they come out nearly defect free right from the mold, no vibration, no additives, no shaking, no patching, no filling and I mix the concrete thick enough it can be picked up in the hand and doesnt slump or run off.
I do not use a mechanical mixer either as using a mortar or concrete mixer to mix the wet concrete will REALLY incorporate air bubbles in the stuff, it can be one the dry ingredients to blend them however

Certainly if I can do it YOU can do it..

Oh yes, you will get occasional tiny pinholes, there's no way to avoid those 100% unless you do something exotic like putting the mold in a huge pressure pot under 100 PSI till set.



This cast took 100# of concrete




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  #6  
Old 11-11-2006, 05:47 PM
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Re: Concrete casting - need help please

Hi Landseer, I agree with you completely, but how would you do a cement mold that is deep and narrow and can not be packed by hand?

I had one I did many years ago (Maybe 15) and it was so narrow in sections that I could not do much more than try to shake the heavy mold. I was not terribly concerned with surface detail, so I did not mind bubbles and other defects too much.

What advice would you have for a piece like that? Just picking your mind.

Oh, and before I forget, great video. Thanks. That should be very useful to many starting to work with concrete.

Ari.
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  #7  
Old 11-12-2006, 03:51 PM
Elsie Elsie is offline
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Re: Concrete casting - need help please

Hello again

Thanks for all the replies most helpful. I think I will have to find a method of hand packing my moulds as I had not considered that the agregate would sink to the bottom if vibrated! Thanks for the warning.

My moulds do have deep thin bits and I have tried to pack them using a small sick and pushing the cement into the sides and tamping it down. But i have on occasions had weak lines in it, almost like seams inbetween the tamping as it was done in sections (with the same job lot of mix but a bit put in and tamped down, then a bit more. if that makes sense?) i was trying to find a solution to not having these fault lines in the sides, which is why i tried a wetter mix ....and hence the air bubbles. Any suggestions?

Thanks for the video clip. very helpful. Could i pick your brains a bit more and ask what mix you were using? I am currently using a 3 part sharp sand to 1 part cement mix - does this sound ok? Should i be putting anything else in the mix to improve it's durability to freeze/thaw cycles, as the winter here gets down to -15 and my pieces are for external display? I have read various contrasting info.

At the moment I am trying to make the mix as dry as possible, demoulding after 24hours and then spraying the casts with water and covering in plastic for 2 weeks before putting outside. What else, if anything would you recomend putting in the mix?

I have read about making the mix denser by adding stone dust or adding some form of latex polymer addative, but there was no real explanation as to how either of these actually worked. Can anyone explain/ suggest the best mix to use in their experience?

Sorry to ask so many questions but i have been searching on the net for ages on this subject with the result of being totally confused as to what to do for the best. Hope you can help.
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  #8  
Old 11-12-2006, 06:12 PM
SPRINGFIELD SPRINGFIELD is offline
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Re: Concrete casting - need help please

I'm sort of new to concretre casting but her's what I do anyway. I mostly cast concrete tiles with designs on them. I mix up a batch of portland cement and sand. Two parts sand to one part concrete by volume and a little
Quickrete Concrete mix excelerator. I add the excelerator to the portland cement and mix it in before I add the portland cement to the sand. Than I add just enough water to make the concrete like a stiff batter. I than use a paint brush and paint the concrete into the fine detail. After that I put in a layer to about 1/4 inch by hand. Than I mix into the rest of the concrete some nylon fiber and finish filling up the mold. What Landseer said about not viberating the mold seems to be right on. I once tried to viberate one of my tiles that had a face on it. I was surprised to find that every large particle of sand found it's way onto the faces nose and it looked awful. Also I usually weight a couple of days before demolding even with the concrete accelerator.
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  #9  
Old 11-12-2006, 06:19 PM
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Re: Concrete casting - need help please

Quote:
Originally Posted by ahirschman
Hi Landseer, I agree with you completely, but how would you do a cement mold that is deep and narrow and can not be packed by hand?

I had one I did many years ago (Maybe 15) and it was so narrow in sections that I could not do much more than try to shake the heavy mold. I was not terribly concerned with surface detail, so I did not mind bubbles and other defects too much.

What advice would you have for a piece like that? Just picking your mind.

Oh, and before I forget, great video. Thanks. That should be very useful to many starting to work with concrete.

Ari.
Hi Ari,
Poor quality video but at least it shows, the reduction/conversion produced an unexpectedly small file and it wasn't till I looked that I saw the degregation in quality, but it works.
For the tall/narrow piece your difficulty increases, in that case I would consider one of the following;

Assuming a coat mold- packing the concrete into the rubber which is NOT inside the mother mold yet, working the concrete in and air out by working on the OUTSIDE of the rubber mold squeezing inward, tapping etc and then putting the shell around it and band it.
Assuming a two half rubber mold, packing one half at a time and putting the sections together, working it some more when banded- similar to doing a wax for bronze.

Using a long blunt ended rounded wood handle like a broom handle will enable a reach in- filling the mold in 25% increments and working it with the stick.

Another thing that can be done which I haven't- is using super plasticizers to make the concrete more liquid without adding more water- in fact using LESS water, but so far I have not found small packaging, the stuff is sold in large containers- 5 gallons and 55 gallon drums, or packages used for an entire yard of concrete, or an entire truck full. The stuff has a shelf life too so if one buys 5 gallons they may never use even one gallon before it goes bad. It's used at very small amounts, like once ounce to a wheelbarrow full or something like that, so a quart of it would do a lot.
This may need mechanical mixing to get it disbursed well, and then that of course adds air bubbles which is counter to what you are trying to do in the first place!

I always lightly ~mist on~ a mixture of water with "Jet dry" automatic dishwasher stuff mixed about a tablespoon to a large spray bottle full of water, it's purpose in the dishwasher is to reduce surface tension of the water and prevent water spots on your dishes, the key is it's a surface tension reducer and helps reduce air bubbles on the mold surface.

Similar products sold at exorbitant prices by Sculpture House etc that do the same thing is that "blue seperator" which is nothing more than rubbing alcohol and castor oil with a little blue coloring added. Be it an oil like castor oil, or a surface tension reducer like "Jet Dry" the purpose, use and end results are basically the same with the same goal- getting rid of the tension that CAUSES entrapment of air bubbles on otherwise flat surfaces to begin with.

This will not help on undercuts that mechanically trap air pockets of course.

The video may seem primitive, but casting this way produces the least defects, if all one is doing is casting stepping stones then it doesn't matter about holes and defects, but when you are casting something of fine art that someone is buying AS art, the end result had better be a lot nicer!

While I HAVE an electric concrete mixer, a very nice unit in fact from Grizzly that is mostly cast-iron and will mix about 300# of concrete, mechanically mixing concrete with this introduces a LOT of air bubbles. A set of 3 or 4 casts I made trying it were so full of air bubbles in the casts depite my working it per the video, that I dumped 2 of them out in the garden.
You can use the mixer to mix the dry ingredients however which is handy.

Heavier aggregate will tend to sink to the bottom if vibrated too much or too intensely, and/or if the mix is too watery.

a 3 to 1 ratio is okay, I happen to use a 2 to 1 ratio and I use the fine white quartz sand that comes in 50# bags used by many for sand blasting.

I never demold before 48 hours, mainly because my casts are normally full of many deep undercuts, fine details and fairly fragile areas, so I wait 48 hours, 24 is pretty minimal and the concrete still quite green.

I don't add anything to my concrete, however, I DO use WARM tap water rather than cold, it starts the setting up a little quicker and gets the process going a little faster than ice cold water. It's also more pleasant to work with when it's a comfortable warm temperature you are sticking your gloved hands in.

I only suggest to clients that they apply Thompson's water seal or equiv to the entire sculpture, and this needs to be done periodically.
Other than that, once the concrete is dry and cured the temperature isn't going to affect it- it's the soaking rain that freezes, ice melt salts and the like that damage concrete, as well as poorly mixed sloppy concrete that obviously produces lousy results in the first place.
A sloppy watery, lousy mix will not be fixed by additives or water sealer- and you see these kinds of mixes on streets and sidewalks where contractors water the stuff down so they can pump it through a small hose or level it out easier, pretty soon you start to see cracks, chips, pock marks and other defects but by then the contractor got their money.
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  #10  
Old 11-12-2006, 06:38 PM
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Landseer Landseer is offline
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Re: Concrete casting - need help please

I cast one of these lions for a previous client , who bought one of these recently for a gift for his mason. He needed it 3-1/2" deeper to embed in the wall. It's still wrapped in plastic but this hydrocal cast shows it's complexity. The concrete cast came out excellent, with only a few minor air bubbles.

The concrete cast is about 100#




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  #11  
Old 11-12-2006, 11:18 PM
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ahirschman ahirschman is offline
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Re: Concrete casting - need help please

Thanks Landseer for all the info. I thought the video was perfect and the quality was more than good enough for what was being shown. It gave a perfect description of how to pack molds by hand. It should help any person that has not worked much with cement a great deal.

Thanks.

Ari.
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  #12  
Old 11-13-2006, 04:06 AM
Elsie Elsie is offline
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Re: Concrete casting - need help please

Thanks to everyone for their swift responses and help with this subject. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and experience.

Achirschman asked an excellent question about the deep moulds and the reply from landseer was very helpful thankyou. The picture of the head is excellent, the detail you have achieved is great, even in what i would have thought to be a tricky area around the nose & teeth.

I think i will try siving my sand to get a finer mix for my more detailed pieces as i do not have any idea where to source sand blasting sand here, a bit time consuming but at least i should get better detail.

I will also leave my moulds for 48 hrs in future, although this will be a stuggle as i am always to keen to see the results of my work.

Landseer mentioned a water sealer for use on finished pieces, does this change the surface texture of the pieces?

How much of a problem is the freeze thaw cycle? Landseer mentioned the rain saturation is the main problem, I take it the piece soaks up the water and then when it freezes the water expands and causes cracking/ damage?

I am currently making a 1.25 meter high 3 towered japanese lantern it does not have much fine detail, but does have some pointy bits and thin columns (about 2cm). The piece will be outside all year in all weather conditions, in your experience if I follow all the advice and use a damp mix, pack it well, keep it moist for 2 weeks etc is there still a real chance of my pieces being damaged by the weather?

If so, you mentioned you tell your clients to use a water sealer - is this expensive?

Hi springfield, thanks for your input. You mentioned you put an additive in your mix, sorry but i did not really understand the benefit of this additive. Please could you explain further?

Sorry to ask so many questions again but as i am sure you all understand this subject seems to be a bit complicated as a newcomer to the material. I had originally thought it was a simple material and had not envisaged so many possible variations and problems. But I have seen such excellent pieces in the material i am determined to become proficient in using it, no matter how long it may take! Any more help and advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again
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  #13  
Old 11-13-2006, 01:33 PM
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Re: Concrete casting - need help please

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elsie

I think i will try siving my sand to get a finer mix for my more detailed pieces as i do not have any idea where to source sand blasting sand here, a bit time consuming but at least i should get better detail.
I buy my sand at the local lumber yard, they stock it because there is a good demand for sandblasting around here. It comes in bags by "UniMin"
It is also used in those standing floor model ash trays in commercial buildings and hotels.

Quote:
Landseer mentioned a water sealer for use on finished pieces, does this change the surface texture of the pieces?
It penetraits totally, it darkens the tone a little like all stains will- even clear stains on wood.

Quote:
How much of a problem is the freeze thaw cycle? Landseer mentioned the rain saturation is the main problem, I take it the piece soaks up the water and then when it freezes the water expands and causes cracking/ damage?
Keep in mind that nothing lasts forever, at best, sealer and anything else you can do to the concrete if it's kept outdoors in severe climates is buy it more time before it eventually gets damaged. The amount of time and damage will vary widely, but outdoors in the weather it WILL get damaged over time, cracks, erosion etc, that is one reason why you see concrete sidewalks and curbs being replaced periodically- they crack, chip, spall, erode etc.


Quote:
If so, you mentioned you tell your clients to use a water sealer - is this expensive?
About $12-$14 a gallon, it's made for sealing patios, sidewalks, driveways, brick, pavers and other concrete and masonry.
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  #14  
Old 11-13-2006, 02:39 PM
Elsie Elsie is offline
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Re: Concrete casting - need help please

Thanks again Landseer. It's really good of you to share your experience and answer so quickly. Much appreciated.
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Old 11-13-2006, 04:28 PM
SPRINGFIELD SPRINGFIELD is offline
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Re: Concrete casting - need help please

Hello Elsie in answer to your question about the additive. I use some Quickrete concrete mix accelerator it's supposed to help the concrete set up faster. I don't realy think it's necessary but I got into the habbit of using it so I'll probably keep using it. No special reason for it.
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Old 11-15-2006, 03:46 AM
Elsie Elsie is offline
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Re: Concrete casting - need more help please

Hello

Thanks Springfield for the reply. Better the devil you know.



I spent yesterday carefully handpacking most of my moulds using all the excellent info provided here, so am looking forward to unveiling them on friday.

If i have further questions should i ask them on this thread, or start a new one?

I will ask them here anyway I think, but please let me know if this is not best practice so to speak.

Three main new questions.

1. We have a lot of rain water buts which we use to water our garden in the summer months. Is there any reason why I could not utilise this rain water in my concrete mixing? I was thinking of filtering it through a fine fabric to get rid of any debris before using it, but someone told me i should not use it, but did not know why not.


2. One of my planned designs involves making animals using metal rebar as an armature, I would ideally like the legs and tails to be as thin as possible or even bare metal. I was planning to coat the bar in some form of epoxy paint to protect it from rusting. But would prefer the whole surface to be concrete. In a plaster model i used plaster bandage wrapped around the metal legs. This gave the desired surface texture whilst keeping the limbs as thin as possible. Is there a similar method i could use with concrete on some form of fabric? Or will it just get eaten away by the cement over time? Any ideas welcome.

3. I have been reading about a mix utilising peat instead of sand, i think it was called Hypertufa? I am slightly confused as I thought organic material in cement would rot/ erode away. The benefits of this mix are apparently that it develops a natural moss surface quickly, which would work well with natural organic shapes i have in mind. But my question is on the durability of this mix. Has anyone used it and to what effect?

Any ideas or thoughts or advice are welcome. Thanks again for all your help so far. Elsie.
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Old 01-06-2007, 05:27 PM
babyben babyben is offline
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Re: Concrete casting - need help please

hi there my name is ben.

im new to the concrete business, im starting to make my concrete ornaments,
but also im gunna be doing concrete paving slabs aswell as fence posts,

i was very interested in what landseer said.

i dont have a vibrating table, i found it very interesting in what everyone said about the ornaments, but i was just wondering could the same be done with fence posts and paving slabs.

please could someone let me know. kind regards Ben
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Old 01-06-2007, 05:43 PM
babyben babyben is offline
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Re: Concrete casting - need help please

hi there my name is ben.

im new to the concrete business, im starting to make my concrete ornaments,
but also im gunna be doing concrete paving slabs aswell as fence posts,

i was very interested in what landseer said.

i dont have a vibrating table, i found it very interesting in what everyone said about the ornaments, but i was just wondering could the same be done with fence posts and paving slabs.

please could someone let me know. kind regards Ben
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Old 05-27-2007, 03:58 AM
Rojellio Rojellio is offline
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Re: Concrete casting - need help please

Baby Ben... Here is a New Vibrator that recently hit the market. I have had mixed results vibrating my molds directly. I am guessing that I have bug holes from over vibration. I am planning next time to vibe the concrete while it is still in the mixer, to knock air out before it hits the mold. That AND Fritzpack "Air Minus".

The motor on that vibe is big enough to rig it up as the motor for a small vibrating table. I once tried a daft experiment involving a now destroyed palm sander... so dont even try the palm sander rig.

Dont ask how I know... but "personal vibrators" do not work. Not even the fukioba glove with vibes on each finger, or "probes" either for that matter.

Concrete Depot has small 1 pound bags of various plasticizers, water reducer, air entrainer and air detrainer. As well as Powerpozz highly reactive metakoalin, and Microfiber. IMHO micro fiber is a requirement in concrete. There is no excuse for not improving your matrix with fiber.

"No Comprende es Slump cone" results in weaker, and often bad concrete regardless of what language concrete is poured in. DO NOT add excess water. Good vibration will "liquefy" the stiffest mix. Hopefully if one does much with concrete, they learn how to operate a slump cone or at least grasp the concept.

I am going to try the "air minus" additive to see if that helps. The package says it can reduce entrained air down to 1% so there is still some air . Kind of a catch 22. I dont mind entrained air.. so long as it doesn't appear on the surface.

Also anyone working with cement very much should be aware of the portland cement association If it happens to concrete, they have studied it and published a report about it.
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Old 05-27-2007, 12:34 PM
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Re: Concrete casting - need help please

I have excellent results just pouring the silicone molds DRY, I no longer mist water or jet dry/water on the inside of the molds. I found that ANY water beads on the mold surface seems to cause the bug holes, despite my donning rubber gloves and working the concrete in carefully into the face of the mold with my fingers.

Pouring it dry eliminates 99% of the bubbles and I mix a very stiff slump.
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Old 05-27-2007, 07:06 PM
Rojellio Rojellio is offline
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Re: Concrete casting - need help please

Quote:
Originally Posted by Landseer
I have excellent results just pouring the silicone molds DRY, I no longer mist water or jet dry/water on the inside of the molds. I found that ANY water beads on the mold surface seems to cause the bug holes, despite my donning rubber gloves and working the concrete in carefully into the face of the mold with my fingers.

Pouring it dry eliminates 99% of the bubbles and I mix a very stiff slump.
Sorting out the water caused bug holes from the air caused ones has got to cause some confusion for some. With the water caused holes... you have a drop of water trapped against the side of the mold. While the magical process of hydration/ curing takes place the concrete will "drink up" that bit of water leaving a void in its place. I might wonder if some of the trapped water action is bleed water that was trying to migrate to the surface during vibration and got trapped along side the mold. My other guess is that over vibration could cause this.

What landseer is saying about "dry", "stiff" and otherwise low slump mixes cannot be stressed enough. Air bubbles are the least of your worries.. A high slump, wet, soupy mix will be weaker, and more likely to crack. Too much water literally waters down the cement paste. The absolute minimum amount of water to hydrate concrete is a water to cement ratio of .28 For 5,000 psi "6 sack" the WC is typically right around .41 .5 wouldnt be terrible, but after that things go downhill. So for 10 pounds of cement, your dont want any more than 5 pounds of water.

There is such a thing as SCC, self consolidating concrete. That stuff is very "runny" . I have doubts that any of you lot are mixing such high tech crete.. so ease up on the water.

Also however it is done.. packing, tamping, feeling in with your fingers, roding, or various mechanical vibration. It is all considered vibration. It is supposed to reduce friction between the cement particles, making the concrete flow better.
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