dvd- rodin's gates of hell- any good?

[furby]

Hi y'all,

i was astonished to read on the 'net recently that Rodin's "gates of hell" was cast in one piece in 8 tons of bronze. thats a really big pot eh. they cast it in like 1981 or thereabouts. i'd love to know how they did that..

So anyway i notice now that Amazon's got a DVD!

Has anybody seen this film? Does it show mostly a load of piffle about his life & sorrowful loves etc, or are there actual technical details of how they cast the Gates?

here's from amazon:
"This DVD documents the triumphs and difficulties encountered during the casting of this eight-ton work and chronicles the life and work of Rodin –from the challengers of his early career to his later years of success and fame."

i'd like to see a show about casting the Gates... but not 2 minutes on the Gates, & 58 minutes on introducing Rodin etc,.. i read enough books & seen enough yawn inducing doco's already.. quite frankly dunno how they manage to make it so boring sometimes.

cheers
cath

[Tlouis]

Hi Furby

I have a copy of the DVD coming from Netflix. I'll let you know what I think. I too can't stand hearing about the ups and downs of Rodin's personal life. I never think about Rodin without getting really outraged over the way he trashed the life of Camille Claudel. This was a woman of genius! I wonder if she wasn't better at sculpture than Rodin. And unlike Rodin, she could CARVE. She didn't need praticiens.

Regards, Lou

[fritchie]

I remember seeing a TV program on an ATTEMPT about 20 - 30 years back, to cast the entire thing at one go for a California museum, Stanford U., I think. I don't remember who funded the attempt, but Stanford was considered wealthy even then, and was trying for an even higher public image. Rodin's original foundry was involved and probably helped underwrite costs, to gain publicity and reputation.

The attempt failed, but the program I remember showed only moldmaking and initial steps in the pour, possibly with molten metal running from breaks in the large mold. I think they got large segments from that pour, but if the mold breaks, you have to consider what pieces of mold might be trapped inside, and possibly recast even pieces that seem successful. Stanford does have a Gates of Hell cast and features it prominently, I'm sure. At the time of this broadcast, they also publicized their overall sculpture collection, which, in my recollection, is large and fairly representative.

[Merlion]

Why is it important that this large gate has to be cast in one piece?

It is well understood that large bronze works, except large bells of course, are not cast in one piece, but welded up and chased on site.

[fritchie]

It was an attempt to show virtuosity, perhaps rather like the famous case of Benvenuto Cellini which was recounted just a couple of weeks back. Someone called his Autobiolgaphy "a great read" or something like that. I completely agree on that assessment. The man is a total braggart in that work, but it does show something of the thinking during the Renaissance. Cellini says, I believe, that at least some of the ancient Greek/Roman works were done that way, and he wanted to achieve the same thing.

Gates of Hell is much bigger that Cellini's Perseus, but the technology of ca. 1950 also was greater, so the foundry and patron wanted to give it a try.

[furby]

Hey Lou, i look forward to your review

yeah he was bad news for all the women in his life. i think while camille was being destroyed by rodin's personality, rodin had an actual not-quite-wife who was there putting up with it all. he married her on her deathbed as a favour, rose i think her name was. they say to be a great artist you have to be a crap human being... i don't believe thats true anyway, but i guess its a matter of what your priorities are. i.e. would you rather put your art first in valiant effort to get somewhere, probably dying bitter & twisted & alone, but possibly well-respected as a great sculptor after having hurt everyone who loved you by putting them a distant 2nd to your art; or have a nice life and people like you while you're alive, & have a few beers and a bit of a laugh about your funny little sculptures. i guess i'm trying to alternate the 2.. i'm bitter, twisted & alone, but people laugh at my sculptures.

cheerio
cath

[JasonGillespie]

Benvenuto Cellini.....The man is a total braggart in that work

fritchie,

Is he a braggart or a canny self-promoter? I agree though, he does give a wonderful picture of what that time held for those in the visual arts.

[fritchie]

Since the work is very good, self-promoter probably is a more encompassing term. Way ahead of his day in that regard. I don't know how many people could read at that time, or how quickly his book traveled, but what he says more or less about the piece is accurate. It does have defects, but is among the best works of that sort over a couple centuries.

[Alfred]

**SPOILER ALLERT**
I got the DVD yesterday (from Netflix), production value isn't great as it is a video from circa 1980 (I was only four then and living in a war torn country- sorry to get off topic... back to the video). I found it fascinating to watch the methods being used to cast the piece. I have a lot of personal experience pouring bronze, I've probably been involved in well over fifty pours, and I was in awe of the sheer scale of it all. Massive pits being dug into the ground, wood stoked fires to melt the bronze. The piece was not however cast in one piece. It was initially attempted in two pieces, with all the high relief areas and certain stand-alone figures cast separately. The two segments of the gates (top and bottom) were cast at the same time with the same bronze to ensure a good match when the two were reassembled. Although everything looks like it's going fantastic...TRAGEDY STRIKES!!! Bom Bom Bommm. The two halves did not completely cast, parts of the mold had cracked under the immense pressure of the sand (which arrived wet ((for those of you who don't know about casting, wet sand can be extremely dangerous because if the molten bronze hits the wet sand, the water would instantly expand in a small version of a hydrogen explosion, causing massive injuries and burns)) the sand had to be dried, and the subsequent pressure of the expanding gasses cracked the mold). So the team cried and hugged each other for a few moments but the in great French fashion said "F**K it!! Lets get some wine and do this again." This time they cast the gates in seven pieces and all went well. The chasing was all done by hand, no grinders or dremmels, only small chisels and a lot of patience. Overall, the movie is a good insight into the world of large bronze casting and old world techniques.

[Merlion]

I had the experience of sand casting when the vapor 'explosion' occured. A small blob of molten aluminium was blown up, landing on to the clothing of somebody standing near by.

It was during a demo at a sculpture casting class. The 'victim' was an adult student. Fortunately the only damage was the clothing, not injury to the skin and body.

The class instructor did not tell us to stand back sufficiently.

[furby]

wow that does sound like a good film, even if it's old, thats ok. i reckon i'll get a copy of it. i aim to go to france sometime soon & check out these old foundries.
what war torn country was that, Alfred?

i've been showered with molten aluminium once & bronze once. its just a bit of moisture in there someplace & whup you see a flash of metal go straight up in front of you & you know its for sure coming right on down again..

both times i was holding one end of the pot so i couldn't run away. the aluminium burned me a little bit i got one spot on me. the bronze just ended up blown into every crevice in my safety gear & i was picking bits out for months & giggling about it (when you're young these things are funny). the difference was with the al i was wearing a woollen jumper & the bronze a heavy cotton jacket. it runs off better from the cotton. and those leather helmets of course are worth everything..

[Alfred]

Hey Furby, The foundry that poured the gates for this film was actually a new foundry at the time. They purchased a villa and created this beautifull looking foundry. Using the old world techniques gave them a good reputation quickly and that's why they were chosen as the foundry for the job.

The worn torn country was El Salvador. That story is a whole thread unto it's own so I won't go into details here.

The worst bronze spew I've seen is when a newb hadn't preheated the ingot and dropped it into the crucible. The flute of bronze went about fifteen feet in the air, luckily that gave the three people in the area(including myself) time to move away. If that had landed on anybodies head they probably wouldn't be here now. Neadless to say, that guy remained a newb because he was never allowed to pour again. He was also a pot head, so maybe that had a lot to do with it.
Another time I was the lead in the pour and a piece of the crucible broke off on the inside and rose to the top (it looked like some sort of lava beast), there was a temporary moment of panic but everybody stood their ground. The bronze spilled over the top a bit and showered down by our feet. My friend who was the assistant on the pour, steped on a molten piece of bronze about the size of a BB (or ball bearing) for no more that three seconds. After all the chaos died down and we finished the pour, we examined his boot to find a one and a half inch diameter - half sphere melted away from the bottom of his boot all the way to the sole. We wondered what would have happened had he stayed in the same place.

No Worries!!!

Alfred

[fritchie]

Alfred - What you describe differs radically from what I remember from long-ago TV for the cast at Stanford University. El Salvador??? So that's not the Stanford cast? Where is this El Salvador cast now, and was the cast successful? (I presume it was, since it is the subject of a video.)

[Alfred]

Sorry Fritchie, I think you misunderstood the reference. I was responding to Furby's question as to the "war torn country" I was in back in 1980.

The cast was done for the Musee De Rodin in Paris. It's the one that stands outside in the courtyard. I'm not sure about the Stanford cast, or when and how that was done, but I asume it was after 1980, because they made a big deal about it (in the movie) being the first time they were to be cast in bronze.

Sorry for the confusion.

Alfred

[Merlion]

Originally Posted by Alfred

The cast was done for the Musee De Rodin in Paris.

Oh, this is the bronze gate I saw a few years ago. I didn't know it was finally casted in 7 pieces. The gates were out in the open, but slightly protected from the elements, perhaps like a typical bronze gatedoor.

Isn't there another one in Paris, inside the Museum D'Orsay, Paris? Can't remember if this one is bronze or plaster. It was on display on an upper story. So it is probably plaster.

Edit: I've just checked. The gates in D'Orsay are casted in plaster.

[Merlion]

I am now curious about two questions. Anybody knows.

Has any of his Gates of Hell been bronze casted in one piece?

How many of this Gates exist as bronze casts?

[Alfred]

As far as I know there have been no other attempts to cast the gates in one piece. The main reason is how impractical that attempt would be. There are so many high relief and full figures on the gate that it has to be cut up anyway. The larger the pour the more chance of warping and mis-alignments. It just makes no scense to do it that way.

As to how many there are, I have not been able to find any difinitive answer.

Alfred

[Musicman92130]

I have another DVD of Rodin called Hands of Genius, it is mediocre at best. I don't think there is good Rodin DVD out there. I have read most of the Rodin books out there and he struggled and faced constant rejection and didn't start getting and kind of commercial success until he was well into his forties.

And for those who said he didn't carve, they are right, he sculpted clay. He broke the mold of what was done at the time. I don't see how anyone can deny the Age of Bronze, the Man With the Broken Nose, The Walking Man, Balzac, the Burghers of Calais, didn't change sculpting forever. He carried on where Carpeaux left off and brought sculpture out of the flowery over idealized pieces done back then.

As far as his infidelity, that was a different time and culture. What artist did not have a mistress back then. Look at Picasso, Riviera, ect. It was accepted. Camille was very telented and Rodin did a lot to get her noticed. And she left him when he didn't leave Rose. The only real bad things he might have done is he used his clout to have the state cancel the sale of a couple of her pieces where it made Rodin look bad. But she could have sold them elsewhere. She was a very self-destructive person. She was not a child but a grown adult. She was a great sculptor, but did nothing to change sculpture or anything new. I would put her along the same level as D'Angers or Dolou. Great, but not a master.

But my 2 cents.

[fritchie]

I decided I'd better get some certifiable material on Stanford University's cast of Gates of Hell, since I was the first person here to claim they had a cast, and to be sure I wasn't propagating fiction. This first web article: http://news-service.stanford.edu/pr/02/rodin109.html is from Stanford U. itself, dated 2002, and describing publication of a scholarly work on the artist.

The following short link: http://museum.stanford.edu/view/rodin__1985_86.html gives a photograph of the Stanford U. "Gates of Hell" and says it is the FIFTH cast. Further info here is "Bronze, Coubertin Foundry, no. 5. Posthumous cast authorized by Musée Rodin, 1981
636.9 x 401 x 84.8 cm." Clearly, Coubertin is the foundry, whose name I couldn't remember earlier, and that cast was in 1981.

Wikipedia, url here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gates_of_Hell, also says Stanford's copy is number 5, and gives more information. They say the plaster original was restored in 1917 and three casts were made then, for the Musee Rodin in Paris, Rodin Museum in Philadelphia, and a museum in Tokyo. The fourth cast went to Zurich, Switzerland, and the sixth to Seoul, Korea.

[furby]

Hey i got my copy of this from amazon, arrived yesterday.
i didn't watch the first half yet, the background about rodin etc, i just went straight to the pour. wow!!! that was a massive undertaking to try to cast such huge shells in one go. wouldn't believe it really, except it was there on film. and almost nobody sissy enough to wear face shields while pouring the 8 tons!! far out...... imagine 8 tons molten bronze pour out down a channel into a pool & swirling there in to cool to the correct pouring temp. and blokes standing there putting their hand up occasionally to shield their face from being seared. one guy with a cig hanging out while he fed the furnace.
to me it was well worth the cost of this dvd just to see such a massive thing (attempt to be) cast. i didn't even remember to sit down i just stood there in front of the tv till the end.
i guess in the modern terminology this was like "sculpture foundry porn". Awesome.

[Dusty]

I found this forum today while searching for "Gates of Hell" and sculpture. I've enjoyed reading the posts, and will definitely look for the video. However, I've been searching for some time without success for a reproduction of the Gates of Hell to purchase (for my son). I doubt there is such a thing available, but if anyone would know, I'd assume some one of you would. So I hope for a reply, and perhaps luck in finding such a thing for a gift.

Thanks!

[GlennT]

Originally Posted by Musicman92130

She was a great sculptor, but did nothing to change sculpture or anything new. I would put her along the same level as D'Angers or Dolou. Great, but not a master.

But my 2 cents.

If you mean Jules Dalou, I beg to differ. He was a master, unless your criteria is reliant on changing sculpture by doing something new in the sense of pioneering a new vision or technique. Judging on the merits of his work regardless of context in the art world of his time, his work is masterful.

As for Camille, her work looks to me like Rodins work would look if it woke up in its sleep having nightmares. Lots of great talent used to express emotional anquish.

My two cents, or a Buffalo nickel by James Earl Frasier.

[Multi_Pass]

Originally Posted by Merlion

The class instructor did not tell us to stand back sufficiently.

The heat from the pour itself should make you want to stand back at least 10 feet if not further. Even when you're all suited up for helping the pour, even you want to back up and get the hell out of there. Molten metal isn't something you really want to be near in regular clothes. That's just common sense.


Back to the original topic. I went to Paris for the month of July this year and saw the Gates themselves up close and personal. Although, it was hard to stand in front of it for a long period of time to inspect it because of all the people wanting to photograph the whole thing without having other annoying tourists in the way of their shot. Had I seen this thread before I went there I would have checked for any weld marks or cracks or anything that would indicate how many pieces it was cast in.

For me personally though it doesn't really matter how many pieces it was cast in. I've worked with bronze before and the process is neat and seeing it done on a large scale like that would be cool but I don't think that it being done in one piece would make it any better or more exciting/special than if it were done in multiple pieces.

[Multi_Pass]

Originally Posted by Merlion

Edit: I've just checked. The gates in D'Orsay are casted in plaster.

Just saw this post.

I went there too and right when I saw it I knew it was plaster. Yes yes, it's white and to us is obviously plaster, but you should have heard the things I heard people around me say when they looked at it. Some asked it it was ceramic and others just had no clue. I let the people around me know, but didn't stay to be other people's tour guide. You can see that it's all scratched up and is actually starting to fall apart. In that picture and from far away, it looks great, but it isn't going to last much longer. I imagine they must recast it in plaster every so often or if not, they may soon. There was even some tiny pieces of it on the floor.

[Multi_Pass]

Originally Posted by Dusty

I found this forum today while searching for "Gates of Hell" and sculpture. I've enjoyed reading the posts, and will definitely look for the video. However, I've been searching for some time without success for a reproduction of the Gates of Hell to purchase (for my son). I doubt there is such a thing available, but if anyone would know, I'd assume some one of you would. So I hope for a reply, and perhaps luck in finding such a thing for a gift.

Thanks!

My guess is that if neither of the museums have a small replica, then chances are you won't find one anywhere else. Unless you commissioned a friend of your's to make one for you. I checked both of the museum's websites and neither has a small replica for sale. I don't recall seeing any in the shops while I was there recently either.