iron finishing suggestions

[HeyRemLA]

Have a large iron piece that is uniformly rusted and would like to seal it. I've seen briefly a "burned wax" technique. Can't find any more information on it. Have tested clear acrylic spray, seems to work well, but would like suggestions from those in the know.

Roger

[JAZ]

Originally Posted by HeyRemLA

Have a large iron piece that is uniformly rusted and would like to seal it. I've seen briefly a "burned wax" technique. Can't find any more information on it. Have tested clear acrylic spray, seems to work well, but would like suggestions from those in the know.

Roger

I hope those in the know do respond, since I'd also like to hear what they say, but I can do you one better than clear lacquer. Laquer seals, but there are two things that generate rust - moisture and light. Lacquer only acts against one of those. Penetrol looks like clear lacquer, but it contains rust inhibitors. It's available anywhere you can buy paint for your house and comes in quarts. It's designed to be mixed with paint for its rust inhibiting properties, but I use it on some of my work, both clean metal and rusted. Outdoors nothing clear will fully stop clean metal from rusting (usually not even powdercoating), but I have a steel piece of mine outside that was clean and now is much darker grey, but still okay after about 4 years or so with two coats of Penetrol. I've used it on rusted surfaces (and know others who do the same) and it turns the rust a deeper brown and makes it look cleaner. The rust continues under the surface, but more slowly. You just keep coating it every year or two.

[Araich]

If it is iron and not steel, I would recommend a bi-annual wash in either fish oil or a lanolin sealant (I've not used this but heard it is as good). Iron is much more resistant to rust than steel, and once the outer layer oxidises it all but stabilises.
Be aware that using a hard seal like paint or penetrol outside can potentially trap moisture beneath the seal, through any scratch or chip in the surface, and actually cause faster irregular rusting.
Wax can be used, heat the work with a gas torch hot enough to boil water, brush on while hot so that it fizzes as it seeps into the pours, you can wave the flame over the surface to boil the wax in. When cold, buff with a rag. It has a very limited life outside, but I have found that inside after several coats it is very stable.

[JAZ]

Originally Posted by Araich

If it is iron and not steel, I would recommend a bi-annual wash in either fish oil or a lanolin sealant (I've not used this but heard it is as good). Iron is much more resistant to rust than steel, and once the outer layer oxidises it all but stabilises.
Be aware that using a hard seal like paint or penetrol outside can potentially trap moisture beneath the seal, through any scratch or chip in the surface, and actually cause faster irregular rusting.
Wax can be used, heat the work with a gas torch hot enough to boil water, brush on while hot so that it fizzes as it seeps into the pours, you can wave the flame over the surface to boil the wax in. When cold, buff with a rag. It has a very limited life outside, but I have found that inside after several coats it is very stable.

Interesting. What kind of wax?

[sculptorsam]

Originally Posted by Araich

If it is iron and not steel, I would recommend a bi-annual wash in either fish oil or a lanolin sealant (I've not used this but heard it is as good).

I can't remember if we've gone over this already... This fish oil, can I find that in a hardware or grocery store? Never heard of it before but sounds like a nice solution for treating older cor-ten works.

Sam

[Araich]

I use beeswax, but as long as it is a reasonably heavy wax I doubt it matters. Fish oil can be found here in any old hardware store, sometimes as a spray. It can be hidden behind some fancy label about rust proofing. A friend of mine uses it on his older cor-ten works annually, especially ones by the coast. In fact he has managed to secure an annual payment in some instances to travel to the work and brush it. It radically slows pitting. Essentially it is a very fine oil that displaces air and moisture, and then dries into a mild sealant.
I have also burnt old oil onto steel with some success. Heating the work outside then drenching in oil, igniting. Topping with penetrol or the like when cold. You can get some wild heat staining and residues.

[JAZ]

Originally Posted by Araich

I use beeswax, but as long as it is a reasonably heavy wax I doubt it matters. Fish oil can be found here in any old hardware store, sometimes as a spray. It can be hidden behind some fancy label about rust proofing. A friend of mine uses it on his older cor-ten works annually, especially ones by the coast. In fact he has managed to secure an annual payment in some instances to travel to the work and brush it. It radically slows pitting. Essentially it is a very fine oil that displaces air and moisture, and then dries into a mild sealant.
I have also burnt old oil onto steel with some success. Heating the work outside then drenching in oil, igniting. Topping with penetrol or the like when cold. You can get some wild heat staining and residues.

Thanks. That's definitely the best explanation I've heard of the wax method. I'm not sure the fish oil idea is used around here, but it could be that I just don't know about it. I was only in the sculpture department for a couple of classes because I didn't discover it until I'd almost graduated.
Your friend is wise to to sell a maintainance contract to his client. I've heard that's a good way to make a little extra reliable money and it ensures that your work will be treated right. Smart guy.

[sculptorsam]

As expected, I'm having a hard time finding fish oil up here. I'll just keep looking...

But after reading a bunch of labels, I found boiled Linseed oil which claims to be good for steel as well. Anybody have any experience? Both for indoors and outdoors? I used an old cor-ten rusted piece that's been lying around for a while as a test. Gives a nice wet, satin finish. I'm going to leave it outside now and see how it holds up.

Sam

[warren01]

Sam,
Couple of things on linseed oil. Some of the enamel type paints use it as a thinner and penetrator. So must have some value for rust protection/reduction.

For the fish oil if you can find Rust Oleum brand paints, they use the fish oil instead of linseed oil.

This is from Rust Oleum website
"The original and the best, based on Rust-Oleum founder Captain Robert Fergusson's discovery of raw fish oil's ability to stop rust and prevent corrosion on metal ship decks. Unique fish-oil-based formula penetrates rust to bare metal, to drive out corrosive air and moisture other prim..."


Now about the boiled linseed oil;
I have used the boiled linseed oil a few times for indoor sculptures. I have an old piece from sheet metal that is about 30 years old. The piece was not rusted, justed darked by torch and burnt oil. Applied linseed oil and it has rusted in various parts. It might of been how the linseed oil was applied, used it straight, and it took for ever and ever to dry.

The more recent applications I now mix the linseed oil with a little mineral spirits and Japan dry. It goes on thinner and dries in about an hour. You can then layer up to give more protection and deeper shine. I usually put on a couple of coats of Carnauba wax to tone down the shine some.

warren

[sculptorsam]

Thanks, Warren. I am familiar with Rust-Oleum so that's a good lead. And I'll probably try to thin the linseed oil out next time as well. Since I'm using cor-ten steel already, I'm not really interested in the rust inhibiting aspect of it. I was more looking for something to give a deeper finish. Sometimes, especially indoors, rusted steel can have a rather dry, brittle look to it.

Sam

[sculptor]

Originally Posted by sculptorsam

As expected, I'm having a hard time finding fish oil up here. I'll just keep looking...

But after reading a bunch of labels, I found boiled Linseed oil which claims to be good for steel as well. Anybody have any experience? Both for indoors and outdoors? I used an old cor-ten rusted piece that's been lying around for a while as a test. Gives a nice wet, satin finish. I'm going to leave it outside now and see how it holds up.

Sam

Hi Sam:
I'm guessing here.........that being said......question.....
About "discoloration", well coloration/patination, actually---I'm assuming that any surface treatment will alter the color and reflectivity of the materials "natural" surface-----if so: Can you describe the alterations of color and reflectivity for the base and/or surface materials you've used?
Or maybe-----before and after pix?

rod(sculptor)

[sculptorsam]

Here are the best before and after pics I could dig up. The first (Rusted) is what the rusted cor-ten looked like before I applied the very thinned out Linseed Oil to a different work.

The second (Hanging Detail) gives a pretty good idea of the color I achieved with very little Linseed Oil. I would definitely second the suggestion to start thin and build up. And if possible, use a rag and not a brush as I did. There will be less likelihood of excesses building up at certain points.

The last (Rebel Cairn 2) is what the Corten looks like after about a year outdoors untreated. It was sandblasted to start with and accelerated with salt water.

Hope these help.

Sam

[jwebb]

Very beautiful work, Sam.

[jsimms]

I will say that if you are coating a rusted piece, it is important to wipe or brush off the dust-like loose rust before coating! I often wipe fairly vigorously, then wax and buff. With a little work, the piece can be made to look very rich, almost like fine leather. Of course, only for indoor work!

john

[sculptorsam]

Originally Posted by jsimms

I will say that if you are coating a rusted piece, it is important to wipe or brush off the dust-like loose rust before coating! I often wipe fairly vigorously, then wax and buff. With a little work, the piece can be made to look very rich, almost like fine leather. Of course, only for indoor work!

john

That is good to keep in mind if you're using mild steel. But that's the beauty of Cor-ten, there isn't any loose rust. You can rub the surface down a bit with one of those 3M pads if you like. That will smooth out the surface. My main interest is in appearance and primarily for indoor/outdoor pieces.

And thanks Jwebb!

Sam

[Araich]

What may happen with cor-ten work outside is that the oil/coating is washed off faster in certain areas like crevasses, where the bright orange of the rust will burst though as a stain, running down the work.
This could sometimes be highly desirable. But beyond control.
Having said this, I have not seen this effect on the work I know has been oiled.

[JAZ]

Originally Posted by sculptorsam

Here are the best before and after pics I could dig up. The first (Rusted) is what the rusted cor-ten looked like before I applied the very thinned out Linseed Oil to a different work.

The second (Hanging Detail) gives a pretty good idea of the color I achieved with very little Linseed Oil. I would definitely second the suggestion to start thin and build up. And if possible, use a rag and not a brush as I did. There will be less likelihood of excesses building up at certain points.

The last (Rebel Cairn 2) is what the Corten looks like after about a year outdoors untreated. It was sandblasted to start with and accelerated with salt water.

Hope these help.

Sam

The sculptures look great, Sam. You have been coming up with some really intriguing fabrications. What gauge is the Corten? Who is your supplier?

[sculptorsam]

Thanks Joyce. The steel is all either 11 or 16 guage (1/8 inch or 1/16 inch). I have used two suppliers, one out of Chicago and the other out of PA. The info for the second is:

A588 and A572 Steel Company
407 Laurel Oak Dr.
Sewickley, PA 15143
(412) 366-1980

I haven't ordered any for a couple years now though so hopefully the number is the same. I was referred to them by the Chicago company (which I don't have the address for at the moment) because I needed 1/2 inch solid rod. To save on shipping, I usually order several thousand pounds at a time every couple years. With the rising steel prices, I don't even want to know how much my next order will be.

Sam

[JAZ]

Originally Posted by sculptorsam

Thanks Joyce. The steel is all either 11 or 16 guage (1/8 inch or 1/16 inch). I have used two suppliers, one out of Chicago and the other out of PA. The info for the second is:

A588 and A572 Steel Company
407 Laurel Oak Dr.
Sewickley, PA 15143
(412) 366-1980

I haven't ordered any for a couple years now though so hopefully the number is the same. I was referred to them by the Chicago company (which I don't have the address for at the moment) because I needed 1/2 inch solid rod. To save on shipping, I usually order several thousand pounds at a time every couple years. With the rising steel prices, I don't even want to know how much my next order will be.

Sam

Thanks for the address, Sam. I have never used Corten, but will try it if the opportunity presents itself, which it might. I assume that the same wire and gas is okay. When I first started up my studio I used to buy steel from the sheet metal place right next door. They charged me $20 to bring it next door and they'd actually bring it right up to my studio. Pretty handy. Unfortunately, they went out of business, I think partly because they overextended themselves in buying one of those enormously expensive things that cuts steel with a jet of garnet impregnated water. Now I get regular 11 gauge mild from a place about 6 or 7 miles away, so that involves renting a trailer to pick it up. Believe it or not, there is a welding supply place across the street from my studio and a scrap metal yard too. The city is going to move both of them out eventually to "upgrade" the area, but for now it works.

[sculptorsam]

Originally Posted by JAZ

I assume that the same wire and gas is okay.

No, you need to use a special wire and either a 2 or 3 part gas. (The 2 part is commonly known as C-10, 90 percent Argon and 10 percent CO2 I believe. I have never been able to figure out what 3 part gas is). If you are using a Mig, which I believe you are, you want to use Lincolnweld LA-75. It comes in 30 pound Readi-reels. I use .035 diameter.

Back in the 60s when a lot of sculptors began using Cor-ten, they continued using the same welding rods as they used for mild steel. Thirty years later or so, the weld seams had rusted through and they began to fall apart.

Sam

[JAZ]

Originally Posted by sculptorsam

No, you need to use a special wire and either a 2 or 3 part gas. (The 2 part is commonly known as C-10, 90 percent Argon and 10 percent CO2 I believe. I have never been able to figure out what 3 part gas is). If you are using a Mig, which I believe you are, you want to use Lincolnweld LA-75. It comes in 30 pound Readi-reels. I use .035 diameter.

Back in the 60s when a lot of sculptors began using Cor-ten, they continued using the same welding rods as they used for mild steel. Thirty years later or so, the weld seams had rusted through and they began to fall apart.

Sam

Wow. Good thing I asked. See what happens when I make assumptions. Excellent input. I'd like to try both corten and stainless for the obvious reasons of less mainance, though of course nothing is actually permanent. If I am able to continue with what I am doing I'll need to go beyond the painted mild steel approach, though David Smith for example mostly stuck with painted steel. But you can get away with things when you are the innovator with a method. People are more apt to invest in preserving and maintaining the finishes on his because he was such a watershed artist.
I have many limitations, but one of them is my studio. One of these days the floor may collapse. And I build things in parts so they fit through my door. There's a nice big freight elevator and two loading docks, but that door...
The reason I asked about the Corten is that I recently applied for a sculpture commission (to which many others also applied, so my chances aren't very good) for which I submitted two proposals, one of which would be comprised of two pieces of Corten. The college that wants the sculpture wants something that maintenance free. They're dreaming, but I tried to come up with something that would fit. I designed it so that even though I have not used Corten yet, the simplicity of the design would make it doable with some research. I'd also have to make special arrangements for workspace, which I could manage. I know this isn't the best approach, but it's expensive to try some things just for the heck of it. I feel relatively confident with mild steel, so it seems to me that my skills are adaptable as long as enough homework is done in terms of research. Now I know exactly who to ask when I have a technical question, don't I? I have a friend nearby who has been working in stainless, so I have him as a resource for that. And I've been instrumental in his getting into two good shows, so he's dying to return the favor. He's also offered to help lift/move heavy stuff if I need it, which I will definitely take advantage of when the time is right.
Yes, I use a MIG, I think just like yours, and usually use .035 but the standard one and standard steel mix. It's got a little aluiminum spoolgun too, but I haven't used it for a couple of years. I made a few things with it, but I have to grind off the welds because they're really lumpy. Fluidity is one of the small things I did with it a few years ago. It's really basic because that's what I could manage. Aluminum is tricky. So, I'm sticking with steel for now. I wish I could go bigger - so far the biggest is 700 pounds, 5'5" x 8' x 4'.

[RuBert]

Originally Posted by JAZ

I have many limitations, but one of them is my studio. One of these days the floor may collapse. And I build things in parts so they fit through my door. There's a nice big freight elevator and two loading docks, but that door...
The reason I asked about the Corten is that I recently applied for a sculpture commission (to which many others also applied, so my chances aren't very good) for which I submitted two proposals, one of which would be comprised of two pieces of Corten. The college that wants the sculpture wants something that maintenance free. They're dreaming, but I tried to come up with something that would fit. I designed it so that even though I have not used Corten yet, the simplicity of the design would make it doable with some research. I'd also have to make special arrangements for workspace, which I could manage.

Hey good for you Jaz, and good luck on getting the commission. I don't think you would have any trouble working with the Corten, with all your experience with steel. I like aluminum myself, but it is a pain to weld if you don't have a big welder as it takes a lot of juice. You also need the high frequency circuit if tig welding and a water cool outfit is the way to go. I've burnt up two units welding 1/2" stock, and the welders would have not even gotten hot if I had been welding steel.

[Araich]

JAZ is that Fluidity pictured? That sculpture is a bloody ripper.

PS I need to get some cor-ten too...

[jsimms]

It's worth asking your regular steel supplier about getting Corten, commonly known as "weathering steel". High strength-low carbon, and somewhat stiffer than hot rolled steel. My supplier is 100 miles away over the hill in Idaho, and they can get corten within a week, and deliver every monday at no charge. Corten runs about $.35/lb delivered vs $.30 for carbon steel.

The 3 part gas I use is a mix of argon-co2-helium (Norgas #15)

Norgas 15
CO2/HE/AR GMAW
Spray Arc
Pulse Stainless Steels
Low Alloy Steels Smooth spray transfer, characteristics
Strong welds which are smooth and bright in appearance
Very high deposition rates
Great control over the weld pool
Good for both stainless and carbon steel
Good out of position in pulse mode

john

[sculptorsam]

John, that price you quoted for Cor-ten got me looking for another supplier. I paid twice that a year or so ago. But my local suppliers were more around 3 times that so go figure. Anyway, I found a list of Cor-ten suppliers but have yet to go through them all. Here goes: http://www.thomasregisterdirectory.c...0007825_1.html If anyone has had a good experience/prices with a supplier shipping to the midwest, I'm all ears.

Sam