Chopin pendant

[rika]

This is a commission I'm working on, for a Chopin festival next year. I'd like a critique. I've never done such detailed face at such small scale and trying to aim at likeness at the same time. The pendant itself is about 2"x 2", the portrait about 1.5"x1.5". This is my second try.
The first pic shows more likeness, but couldn't do a good neck, so decided to use the collar and bowtie instead. Now I feel it worked against the likeness, but as a whole is not bad. Question: Should I work more at likeness or risk spoiling the whole work. I'm afraid more attempts at "improvement" may backfire. The first one ended up in the garbage and I don't feel I can make 10 more of these, it's so difficult and draining. The hair behind the ear is not finished yet.

[WillPaq]

I never learned to draw, so relief sculpture is not my area of expertise but I can offer a few things to look at as you refine the work.

The eyes, especially the left one(picture left) look Mongolian. Change the angle of the orb so the outside rests lower.

His jaw in reality has very steep pitch. Follow the line from his chin to his ear lobe and you will see. He also has a long prominent chin, so I would add some volume to his chin and then alter the degree of the jawline.

The mouth barrel is lacking form. Work on the planes especially those between the lower lip and chin.

Overall the piece is lacking proper perspective, but with adjustments and patience I think you can fix that. If you don't have it, you should immediately buy MODELING AND SCULPTING THE HUMAN FIGURE, by Edouard Lanteri. It is a phenomenal reference and in it he illustrates several relief sculptures in process, showing the planes and perspective. It is also a very inexpensive reference.

Hope that helps some. As a big big Chopin fan myself I look forward to seeing your final effort.

[grommet]

In regard to likeness, it may help you to look at the shape of the 'negative' areas around the features. You are placing things in a standard depiction of where features should be, not where his are. Look at the spaces to help you determine the length of things.
Chin up, you're learning so much from this, even if you feel like you're being tortured.

[rika]

WillPaq, those were mostly my concerns too, but didn't notice the eyes. A big Chopin fan, ouch, better pull myself together. I can see now there will be a third one too. You're right G, but some or most of the issues have to do with the shifted angle. In my first try I followed the exact angle, but the nose pushed against the face looked really dumb when I was looking at it from sideways. I guess if I change the angle, can't use the pic as much for reference. Yeah, I hope I can take away a lot from this experience, even though it seems so restraining right now.

[WillPaq]

If you have the materials, I suggest you make a mold of the piece and cast it in wax. Then you can experiment with numerous copies.

Relief is tough if you are not a master illustrator. It looks so simple that it can actually be maddening because you keep thinking it should be easy but it isn't.

[grommet]

more difficult because of the changed profile, but it shows the shift in features...

[rika]

Maddening, that's the accurate term. Testing your patience and frustration are just the beginning, it seems. At this size I find the best tool is the tip of my smallest brush that picks up tiny slip pieces. Clay of normal softness stiffens in no time, it's useless. Wax sounds like a good idea indeed, but I've no experience with it. Ditto with casting. But time is not an issue yet, so I can experiment.

[GlennT]

You would avoid the material frustration factor and still be working with clay to use an oil-based clay like my favorite, Chavant's "Le beau touche".

grommet's post corrects an important aspect which was getting the angle of the features to all face the same direction. Uncorrected, the mouth and nose looked more frontally faced and were not following the 3/4 direction of the head.

Also, in general the hair is not diminishing into the plane of the flat surface as it reaches the back of the head, so the effect is as of hair standing out sideways from the head rather than receeding in perspective. similar problem with the ear.

The use of the collar and necktie defies proper placement, it is too high and appears to be choking him. You have not left enough room in the format to include those elements in the composition. I thionk you may have tried too hard on the neck. That is an area where you could subdue the detail to a mere suggestion of form, so the viewer's eye is focused on the face.

This is a great project for you because you are pressing up against your limitations and forcing yourself to learn and grow. Don't give up hope, you probably don't have to do nearly 10 of these, but if you do another 1 or 2 you may finally reach a break-through where it all comes together and brings you great relief!

[grommet]

does this help at all?



I think the thing to consider also is that if the relief is subtle it can be enhanced on the final piece with a shadowing patina...

[Giotto]

Very good Rika ! you are off to a good start. If I were doing this I would double the scale. this is a perfect candidate for "reducit" a casting medium that reduces the size about 50%. That would make it easer to approach, Then my first attempt I would make a mold and cast into that mold Roma clay (it melts in a microwave). this will give you blanks to work from, if you need them. Then I would make 10 if I had to. Don't worry about the time this is am important exercise. You are very talented.

G

[rika]

Ok, thanks Glenn, I think the biggest problem is the inconsistency of the angles. Some of them I changed, some of them left unchanged. I need to go back to the original angle and deal with it. To change the angle I would need a very good sketch as guidance. I don't like the collar without the neck, but a trusted friend was happy with it. That's why I posted here, t ohave a better feel from more eyes.

Gee, G, how did you do that? It's very cool, it should be helpful, thanks!

Thanks for the encouragement, a great relief should be a great relief!

[rika]

Giotto, thanks for the vote of confidence (which I kinda lost by the way). I was actually thinking about your post abut reduction this morning. The previous one was almost double in size, didn't have to "push around the clay" as you put it. Lots to think about, but back to work now.

[grommet]

'emboss' effect in photoshop.

[mantrid]

Maybe this is cheating but if you want to get the likness correct without too much messing around, reduce the picture to the size you actually want it and build the clay up on top of it. You may want to put a bit of clear varnish on the photocopy first to stop the paper sucking the water out of the clay.

[Ries]

When I was first learning how to do things, back in my early 20's, I would always ask, "How do they really do this?".

As in, how is this done commercially, when they actually get paid to do it.

Now sometimes, I found that my seat of the pants methods were better, but often, I learned tricks by not trying to reinvent the wheel in a dark room while wearing mittens.

The way they really do these is NOT to sculpt them at 1 and a half inches tall.

Usually, for medallions and coins, the actual sculpting takes place at a much bigger scale, which makes it a lot easier to get the details right.
Then, the piece is usually mechanically reduced- since most pendants and coins are stamped, not cast, this means using an engraving machine to trace the sculpted original, and cut a much smaller negative out from metal, for a master die.

Now I realize that in this case, you are probably stuck doing it the way you are doing it- but there are companies out there that stamp small quantities of custom coins and medallions- and you might get some ideas from seeing how they do it.

My favorite are these guys- a small shop that makes all kinds of great coins-
http://www.shirepost.com/index.html

[GlennT]

BTW, a 3/4 view is a difficult one, more-so than a profile or full frontal. That is one reason why there are less of those to be found in coinage and medals than the other types.

For fun and inspiration, here is a coin I have from Thessaly, Larissa in ancient Greece, about 350 BC, depicting the nymph Larissa at 3/4 view, although more frontally than side oriented.

[Giotto]

Rika...
About confidence level...all of us here who aspire to classical realism are working on thee edge of our capability...Confidence is your best friend until you get bitch slapped by the Art Gods...I usually have a glass of wine and come back the next day and try again...and so it goes...over and over.

G

[rika]

Yes, it's all about fooling the eye or trickery. I saw right away that 3/4 would be a bitch, but I always seem to go for the more difficult, but aesthetically more pleasing. Thanks for those links. Giotto, confidence it's like catch 22, almost impossible to build it up, yet impossible to make progress without it.

Anyways, I think the clue is, leave it alone when it's getting frustrating. 2-3 hours a day, can't go longer. I discovered today, that turning the piece upside down showed the flaws more clearly. So I corrected some this way, then turned the photo upside down too, and corrected some more. Started building up the orb on the left eye a bit, I think it's going to be better when finished.
Here is today's progress. I took shots from two different angles and there's the proof for taking Lanteri's advice and move around the room frequently. The two different angles show two different persons. Of course I have to learn HOW exactly take that advice.

[grommet]

placement of features is getting there...

[dilida]

Rika and others,

thanks for this online lesson, it's informative and one of the things that draws people to this forum. (not just the arguing over what is art). Your last pics are stating to look like a beleivable human, good job. I bet you will reach a place where you are happily satisfied with it.

Thanks again for working this out publicly,

lisa

[GlennT]

Rika, its holding together much better now.

There are two things I wanted to point out. One is that the top of the forehead is missing a prominent convex bump that would give more power of intellect to his features.

Another is a general thing. There is a tendancy when looking at a particular feature to exagurate its shape or importance realtive to the rest of the face. An example is the convex curve at the outside profile of the mouth. One has to go back and look at the larger gesture, in this case the whole profiled line of the cheek and face, to see just how much difference in projection that area needs in relation to the whole. The degree of change is usually rather subtle. At it can also become an issue of whether it is a matter of getting a good likeness or exagurating shapes and divisions of planes for a stylistic effect.

[Peter Murphy]

keep in mind when you are doing a relief piece, its more like drawing or painting than sculpting, you are trying to make the surface catch the highlights and shadows in the right place - and if the light source changes, it should be sculpted so that the forms catch the light correctly as if the light were coming from another angle, this will almost inevitably happen if sculpted appropriately with the light coming from the original direction. Though I guess you could say the same of normal sculpting.

[rika]

About 15 hrs later here's the final version. I think it's time to start a new one. It doesn't seem much better than the last version. But I can't tell anymore. The ear and hair behind it still not solved I guess. The second picture is about the same size as the original pendant.

[grommet]

are the holes for stringing the pendant?

[WillPaq]

Actually it's a hell of al lot better than before. Perfect? No. But so what.

You are missing some normal anatomical structure in the ear cartilage which will help it look better, and the planes of it are a bit off, but don't scrap the work. You have made leaps of progress.

For what most people without a trained eye would know, this is fine. Do a little work on the ear and submit it for approval.

You build a brick wall with a single brick at a time. Id' say you gained a lot of knowledge on this and you might want to move on to another challenge.