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#51
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Re: Artist defends surfing sculpture amid criticism
Heath, I have to say I disagree BIG TIME!!! Pieces that are life casts should not be considered as sculpture (at least not in the traditional sence). If I were looking at two sculptures of the same person and one was a life cast and the other was sculpted, even if they were identical, my respect goes to the sculpted piece. More so in fact, because it looks like the one that was simply coppied off the form. Life casts are good for the SFX industry where exacting standards and time are of the essence, but I feel they have no place in traditional art. Especialy not in public monuments.
Alfred |
#52
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Re: Artist defends surfing sculpture amid criticism
I'm with Heath in that every artist should be judged by his product...and maybe his process is top secret...unavailable to even the most knowledgable eye, not part of the visual equasion. That being the case the work must be judged as it stands.
However life-casting only succeeds in figuratrion when that process is an offering to the sculpture, a way of achieving an aesthetic goal such as in the case of Segal or Hansen; The "death-cast" qualities of the process contain emotional character not achievable by modeling or carving. And of course, in the case of traditional figuration processes, it is always the liberties taken and the proportions cheated that make the thing good, interpretation, stylization etc...stuff not attainable by the life-cast process. And theres nothing like a caliper-damaged enlargment to kill a decent piece of figure sculpture...whether it began as a life-cast or a maquette or whatever. "Paul Bunyan Syndrome", I call it. You want it big, get a big rock and get to work - anything else is just another shortcut. |
#53
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Re: Artist defends surfing sculpture amid criticism
Quote:
![]() Last edited by Merlion : 08-28-2007 at 10:10 PM. |
#54
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Re: Artist defends surfing sculpture amid criticism
Alfred, well, I'm going to have to disagree... the lifecast may take less artistic skill to complete, I'll grant that. But for the final piece, I really don't care about the method used as long as the end result is the best outcome. You still have to choose a pose, create a cast, rework the cast, maybe modify it, design a base, site the work, etc, etc.
By your definition, there is no art in photography, only painting. And I have to say, there's a lot of photographic work that is much better than some of the paintings in the world. Would you say that cast bronze is less "art" than fabricated work? Because, you know, you are just working in clay or wax, which is quite easy compared to, say, cutting and welding the metal itself. Would one of your works be better if it was built up weld-by-weld directly in metal, rather than made in the simple to work wax or clay (then casts taken off that, same as you would with a life cast?) I'm not actually saying cast bronze (or other metal) is worse than fabricated metal. My point is to say that one would be taking a relatively narrow view of art to decide that the process makes one piece better than another, especially if the process is not evident. For that matter, if it's all about the process, would you consider a piece made from sculpy just as good as one cast in bronze? I mean, you'd use the same processes to make the "art" itself -- in some ways the sculpy may be more challenging... but I think most would prefer the bronze, no? |
#55
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Re: Artist defends surfing sculpture amid criticism
agree---disagree---
if the end product is satisfactory with lifecast and isn't pretending to be sculpture then why care the rub is in the balance if i remember my surfing days correctly-it is all about everchanging balance and using your weight and shifting center of gravity to control the board and by planting your feet firmly using your muscles to tilt the board forward backward left and right etc.etc. versus a static land balance so if the "surfer" were lifecast, you could not capture a moment of the shifting balance inherent in the sport, nor get a model to hold the deep kneebends and weight shifted to one leg or another to ride the crest from the pix shown, i'd say that the balance of the surfer statue doesn't match the pictures of the surfers in action... also a lifecast replica of a 1929 Bugatti with a chevy motor and off the shelf tranny may look ok-but it still ain't no 1929 Bugatti and shouldn't be sold as such. and lifecast ain't no sculpture and shouldn't be claimed as such and we still ain't got a bottom line on the question of whether the surfer in question was modeled or lifecast? opinions? |
#56
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Re: Artist defends surfing sculpture amid criticism
We are not living two centuries ago in Europe when the traditional figure sculptors would regard life casting as a betrayal, and the sculpture a fake. By now life casting is regarded as a technique. What matters is the end product, the sculpture.
But as a technique, life casting is more suitable to depict static postures. To depict the fine whole body balance of a surfer riding the waves, the person being casted have, firstly to be a good surfer, and secondly a good actor to imagine mentally and physically with his whole body he is really riding the waves. The latter is most difficult, and perhaps impossible if he is asked to lie down to be casted, instead of standing up. |
#57
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Re: Artist defends surfing sculpture amid criticism
"life casting is more suitable to depict static postures" is a fair argument against using it for this piece.
But just saying life casting "ain't art" is, again, a very narrow view. And frankly, the issue with this piece seems to be the fact that it's a bad pose, life cast or not. So to me, it being a life cast (or not) is a moot point. If the piece *worked* and it was a life cast, I couldn't give a rat's behind how it was made. ![]() If you want to say life casting takes less skill than modeling from scratch, I won't argue that point. If you say it's less art, I say I'd have to judge that piece by piece. Would it be ok for me to say that a non-life cast but fairly exact representation of a person (or animal for that matter) isn't art because you are merely copying something that already exists? Would it be ok to say that abstract pieces are better because they are not merely copying the real world? I wouldn't say those things, I'd have to judge it piece by piece. I'd never want to judge a work of art solely on the technique used to create it. And that's why I don't really care if it's life cast or not, I only care if the final piece works or not. |
#58
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Re: Artist defends surfing sculpture amid criticism
The problem is the commissioning process. It's backwards. Some where along the line people figured that the design/maquette process was less important than the fabrication of the art. Individuals and organizations arrived at the notion that artist can successfully design work for free or a small nominal honorarium. The percent for art programs are particularly stupid. Most organizations expect artist to design a great work of art for a thousand bucks. Then every one shakes their heads in amazement when the public has a problem with the final piece. What did they expect for a grand.
The way it should work is an artist is selected then empowered to develop however many drawings and models it takes to arrive at something that's worth the trouble of fabricating full scale. It's impossible to do life cast on a small scale ( unless of course you know some munchkins ). The models should be made then displayed and discussed for a period of time. If problems are going to happen they should happen before the final work is executed. Sculptors should be given much more money during the design phaze of a commission. Enough money to focus for a number of months on exploring, defining and refining the numerous parameters around an idea and it's ideal depiction. Percent for art programs should be giving sculptors at least ten percent of the overall budget upfront . I mention these ideas here in the sculpture forum because for to long the folks putting us to work have dictated the terms of the commissioning process. We should collectivelly be turning the tide to reflect our methods and modes of conduct. More money and more time and more community involement upfront would probably more often than not result in better concieved and designed work. I'm prone to wishful, delusional thinking.......so......I question the idea that a greater investment in the design phaze of a project would result in better work and less public controversy. What do you all think ? Would the surfing sculpture have been better if they had taken more time and invested more money upfront ? |
#59
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Re: Artist defends surfing sculpture amid criticism
agree... disagree...agree
a life cast, if it works in the context in which the sculptor intended is fine by me. as to whether it is actually a body cast or not? the abs and stomach are a (dead) givaway if you ask me, and the flat left hand looks like a convenient resting position while the poor bloke is covered in wet plaster |
#60
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Re: Artist defends surfing sculpture amid criticism
By way of discussion, I cannot tell from looking at it whether the surfer sculpture posted by Merlion in post #53 is derived from a bodycast or from the modeling work of the sculptor. But I think that it is a beautiful work of art. It has a great strength of gesture and solid composition. If it was made from a bodycast, then my respect for the sculpting skills of the artist would be diminished, but it would not change my visual reaction to that particular sculpture. If it is modeled traditionally, then the sculptor has an excellent grasp of anatomy and great modeling skills. In either case, as far as I can tell from a small photo, there is a slight supression of surface detail on the form that contrasts nicely with the folds and wrinkles in the cloth, and both are enhanced by the smoothness of the surfing board. For a work of this type, it doesn't get much better than this!
So, if it derives from a bodycast, the sculptor still managed to work the surfaces so that it feels alive, rather than like a stiff doll-like reproduction, as we have seen in other bodycastings. If directly modeled, the observation and translation is apparently very true to life. My congratulations to whomever sculpted this. GlennT Last edited by GlennT : 08-29-2007 at 11:02 AM. |
#61
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Re: Artist defends surfing sculpture amid criticism
I am with Heath, that I judge the final piece, not the process.
Which is not to say I ignore bad craftsmanship- being a blacksmith, I always look down a bit at cheezy square tubing hastily mig welded and with big grinder marks, be it a railing or a sculpture. But then you get somebody like Heath, who uses a computer, laser cutters, and fabricating techniques to create what is, to me, beautiful and transcendent sculptures. Technique is important to technicians. And I am one, so I am always interested in, and critical of, technique. But it is not of interest to the viewer of art. Musicians will argue for hours over Fender versus Gibson- I listen to the song. And Aaron- I have not found the problems with public art process that you describe- First, since time immemorial, a sculptor has had to be able to draw as well, to depict a sculpture, both for his or her own design process, as well as to communicate the idea to clients and helpers. Great sculptors through the ages have gotten commissions based on drawings. Then they do the maquette, after the commission is already secured. Certainly, it would be a great boon, and a luxury, if every commission paid you for a year or two of development work, to make and remake models and maquettes til they are perfect. But most public art commissions pay a finalist the thousand dollars you mentioned for a rough design, not a final maquette that perfectly represents the finished piece. Its a fact of life that to make big sculpture, especially commissioned work, you must be able to sell yourself and your work, verbally, graphically, and conceptually, and not just rely on a maquette. Personally, I prefer the looseness of the percent for art process- it allows you to get the commission (or not) based on a relatively loose rendering of the final work. Which then means you can fine tune the work as you make it, which, I find, inevitably makes it better. I would feel far too restrained if I was required to make an exact representation of the finished piece before being selected- I always improvise, improve, refine and change slightly my sculptures as they are being built. As mentioned, scale changes things, and often details that looked great at a very small scale must be massaged or sometimes outright given the boot at full scale.
__________________
Been There.
Got in Trouble for that. |
#62
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Re: Artist defends surfing sculpture amid criticism
Heath, I will agree with you that life-casts can be art, such in the case of George Segal ( I think he created beautiful works of art). But his process is also known and described so as not to confuse the works with things that have been sculpted by hand.
I believe your comparison of photography to painting is one of apples and oranges. They are very different processes, resulting in very different products. I paint and photograph and I would never diminish the skill it takes to be able to capture a really good photogragh. But in this case the processes are so different that I don't think it is fair to compare the two. Life casts and traditional sculpting give the same result at the end, and this is where I feel that life casts should at least be defined as such, because if not, they lessen the ability of the traditional sculptor. It would be like a machine programmed to cut and assemble metal in a predetermined shape, as oppossed to someone doing the entire process themselves. Painstakingly cutting the pieces and carefully welding them together. In the end the two would look the same, but wouldn't the one created by hand be something just a bit better? If the processes weren't listed, would you feel offended by the quickly produced, machine made sculpture? Maybe I'm not being clear, but it seems to me that practice and skill in ones area of art, should not be compared with those who take shortcuts and don't have the skill to create it by hand. They should be defined seperately and allow the viewer to make their assesment as to which piece is better. Glenn, the sculptor in post #53 is Tom Marsh. I know him and I have seen this piece in person on a number of different visits to Santa Cruz. He most definately did NOT do a life cast. The base was designed by a seperate artist (part of the commision guide lines), but his figure is absolutely wonderful. He's an amazing artist with an undersatnding of anatomy that I hope to achieve someday. I've been very honored to have him critique my work back in college and to take a one day crash course on anatomy with him (it's been over ten years and I still have my notes). Alfred |
#63
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Re: Artist defends surfing sculpture amid criticism
We probably could go over this issue of life-casting versus direct modelling ad nauseum, but let me state my position again, as I have in other threads, that I agree with the proposition "It is the end product and not the means of production that makes the art".
As far as comparing photography to painting, I think the issue is similar. The concept and the ability to produce an excellent final representation are what define art. The photograph may be snapped in a microsecond, on instinct by the photographer, or it may be the result of years of study and looking, as in the case of many Ansel Adams works. The differernce in deliberation or time matters not in defining art. |
#64
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Re: Artist defends surfing sculpture amid criticism
I am not now, nor have I ever been a surfer. And I have different feelings about "representational" art than every one else here. I see this as a well crafted work of a figure. I never try to make an image that is an exact replica of a recognizable image. I am sory if that is offensive to some.
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#65
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Re: Artist defends surfing sculpture amid criticism
This has nothing to do with body casting or technique. This is a sculpture describing a surf sub-culture. The problem is that any surfer sees the pose as goofy. It is not disturbing to to non-surfer or beginner surfer. Surfing has almost everything to do with stance on a surfboard....a surfer can pick out a style of a person a mile away just by their stance. This is a very important aspect to sculpting a surfer. Just as a sculpture of a bullfighter would not be crouched to receive a horn in the behind. Every arm, hand, knee-bend is crucial and construed as important to style and content. In life sculpture and surf style there is a great mixture of art and life. It is so sad that this great art form of life sculpture of a surfing monument has not inspired and given aesthetic experiences to all who see it. Which is what great art can do. The wave should be added and the sculpture repositioned the way the artist intended. It will not be like the smaller sculptures but it will be closer to the idea. I just hope this does not deter cities from constructing bronze surf life-sculptures. It is a challenge but someone needs to design the masterpiece of the California surfer.
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#66
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Re: Artist defends surfing sculpture amid criticism
"This has nothing to do with body casting or technique."
maybe... maybe not your "Surfing has almost everything to do with stance on a surfboard." seems to reflect our earlier discussion if (as discussed earlier) lifecasting makes for a more static pose then, maybe This has everything to do with body casting or technique but the chips ain't all in yet |
#67
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Re: Artist defends surfing sculpture amid criticism
The technology for bodycasting is as old as bronze sculpture. The fact that it was not done in ancient greece or other periods to produce the beautiful figurative art of those times indicates that bodycasting is not up to the task of manifesting greatness in art. Not that it is impossible, just improbable. Maybe that is why I'm not too worried about it as a technique. My liveliehood is not threatened by it. I'm more concerned about the slipping standards that are so pervasive. As an example, American coinage in the last decade has gone from real bad to terrible. Once proudly bearing beautiful artistry, the most recent attempts look like casino tokens. Help!!!
GlennT |
#68
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Re: Artist defends surfing sculpture amid criticism
plastic coinage anyone?
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#69
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Re: Artist defends surfing sculpture amid criticism
To lifecast or not to life cast? Ironically, I am less concerned with this aspect of the work in question and more concerned with some fundamental creative problems I think it has. Putting aside the means of fabricating a figurative work for the moment, any good sculpture of this sort should have a narrative and compositional power that makes other considerations secondary. This sculpture fails in that mission, in my opinion. It seems little more than a sketch, a shadow of an idea that is still waiting to be released. (I am not refering to its degree of finish should anyone feel a need to defend the veneer of the sculpture....I am refering to its substance) It lacks the resolution of pose, body tension, psychological impact, etc...it is an unedited idea that shouldn't have left the drawing board without a lot more work. Instead of being an embodiment of surfing, it could easily be a boy doing something else that requires his arms flailing around...(jumping on a bed or perhaps a trampoline?)....and that is a fatal flaw. I won't even touch upon the funny looking spatter beneath the "dynamically" positioned surfboard or the chunk of rock "thoughtfully" placed beneath that. (Oh, I'm sorry it's not spatter...that's supposed to be surf...shame you can't make a cast of that.)
As a result I can understand those in the surfing community who feel that some sort of fraud is being foisted upon them. Regardless of how it was made, it should at least make sense to the people it is meant to represent...they should "get it" when no one else does. Unable to pass up the obvious.....That this type of problem abounds when those that are doing the work use a form of technical execution such as life casting is no coincidence. Why, because lifecasting exempts the artist from having to win for themselves the hard lessons of how to make a figure by hand....and all the editorial discernment that comes from learning that process. (That is not to say that life casting can't be augmented with good artistic judgement by someone who doesn't possess the traditional modeling skills....its just extremely rare.) Those who do a thing best usually have a deep constructive knowledge of how and why it works. Doubt this axiom? Try fixing a transmission with no previous experience. Is the body any less complex in all its possible permutations? A figure sculpture is more than arms, legs, ears, and eyes....on a basic level these are all forms that must make sense as they relate to each other spatially. Even if someone uses a lifecast to "create" the body, they must take the time to use the forms in an intelligent way....relate them to each other in a way that goes beyond the pedestrian. If compositionally a work is bankrupt there is little point in putting all the bells and whistles on it.
__________________
Ancora Imparo Still I am learning Michelangelo Buonarroti |
#70
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Re: Artist defends surfing sculpture amid criticism
Quote:
Steven |
#71
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Re: Artist defends surfing sculpture amid criticism
Quote:
Is that a Russian surfer trying to look westernized? I think I like Peter Pan on the first page better. ![]() Let it go... And if the original artist ever reads this; Keep at it, plenty more for us all to learn and do.. |
#72
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Re: Artist defends surfing sculpture amid criticism
Quote:
And as far as the crappy waves, why didn't the artist just use resin instead? Isn't that cheaper than straight bronze? And the base could have been fine had he tried putting some of the wave under the board and make it overlap the stone in an interesting wave like fashion. This guy just seems to me a commercial artist, or a sell out for the money if you will and doesn't actually try to make things look good. Seems like he makes a project as quickly as possible so he can get money for his next commission and so on. I'm not against being a sell out, hey, we all gotta eat, but at least do a good job of it. |
#73
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Re: Artist defends surfing sculpture amid criticism
I like the surfing sculpture, to me it represents the fun and enjoyment a young, learner surfer has, it says surfing is for everyone, even effeminate unco boys. Its not there to represent the male surfer ego. lol
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#74
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Re: Artist defends surfing sculpture amid criticism
This surfer sculpture is back in the news. It wins an award, as well as the park around it. But read the details carefully below.
Park, sculpture singled out – but for different reasons Dec 5, 2007. Union Tribune ENCINITAS – There is a lovely park, popular for children's birthday parties, that seems tranquil even with Interstate 5 just a stone's throw away. Everyone loves it; it's the pride of city leaders. And then there is the statue. Everyone does not love it. The sculpture, of a surfer on his board at South Coast Highway has been mocked as effeminate and just weird. One night someone dressed it in a tutu. ![]() Both caught the attention of the San Diego Architectural Foundation, which each year hands out its Orchids and Onions awards to the best and worst in building and landscape design, public art and historical preservation. The park, Cottonwood Creek, received a Landscape Architecture Orchid; the sculpture, “Magic Carpet Ride,” won a Public Art Onion. And Encinitas earned the distinction of being the only city in the county, besides San Diego, to win two awards. .... |
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